41 replies to this topic

[Ngamok]

I also run a single LRM10 on my 2x ER PPC 2x ML Dragon (the 1C I believe, the one that has the 2E LT mounts that are at cockpit height). Peek a boo.

[Gattsus]

LordKnightFandragon, on 19 June 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

Ooooorrr, perhaps PGI is trying to discourage LRM use to a degree to lessen boating. Instead of every game being LRM boats vs Poptarts....perhaps the new iteration of equipment is meant to persuade people to use other stuff...like, MLs, LL, AC and get away from the super god mode boating.

Although I like lurm boating, I find the changes fair. The rain is not as effective as before.

[Varik Ronain]

l33tworks, on 19 June 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

You guys are not factoring the sheer amount of damage they deliver, both in terms of, psychological damage, supressing you, changing your play style etc, and damaging your mech. No other weapon does this. People ignore taking most other damage but not LRMS.
On top of this the accuracy and how fast they can fire and damage mechs, LRMS are just too devastating not to have as many counters to it as possible. Even with expert players shooting at you you can easily make it accorss a field when PPCs or Acs or lasers are being shot at you, and you will come out with 90% health. If you get targeted by LRMS it just shredds you to death in seconds.

Boating Weapons of any type deals more damage obviously.

So apparently I am the only one who pauses when they get nailed by a Gauss rifle. Even the sound of the gauss has an impact on me! More often than not it is the sound of a skilful sniper removing the ears off of my cat when I poke my head out too much.

Edited by Varik Ronain, 20 June 2014 - 07:50 AM.

[Bobzilla]

LRMs are a gamble if they are your primary weapon. You win some you lose some. It's still the same now.

There are more mechs using ams (in your experiences), but less ECM capable compaired to the amount of mechs in total. That works out to a win on the LRM side.

[Trauglodyte]

El Bandito, on 19 June 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

After the Clan release, I just do not see any reason to bring a single LRM launcher on any of my mech loadouts anymore, be it a 10 pack or 20. That goes double for Clan LRMs due to stagger fire. Before, a single LRM 10 or 15 as a support weapon had felt meaningful to bring along. The current proliferation of AMS + the AMS modules simply makes me feel anything less than LRM 40 deals such little amount of damage that it is just not worth the weight. Basically current gameplay is encouraging LRM boating more than ever, if people even pick LRMs in the first place. One might argue that single large launcher can still go though the AMS umbrella and cause some shake, but why do that when I can bring an AC or PPC for the same weight and cause shake + big damage? PGI, you are doing it wrong if you wish to discourage LRM boating.

Well, single LRM launchers in MWO were never really that powerful. Quite frankly, if you're running a single 10 or 15, you're putting yourself in a situation where you're wasting tonnage. That is really a symptom of what is going on in MWO because the classic Battletech modus operandi of operating several different weapon types for many ranges (i.e. the frankenmech) has been replaced by a high level of specialization. You focus in on one thing or one range and you build around only those weapon types/ranges. I run a single ALRM10 on my Griffin with 2 tons of ammo. Its sole existence is to punish those without AMS and to supplement my ERPPC. I probe targets/groups to see if they're missile vulnerable or watch my teammates to see if they are. But, in an environment where people are still worried about the baby LRMpocolypse that came with the velocity increase, getting the most out of a single launcher is problematic. Even the release of the clans, of which many run LRMs, has pushed the need for more AMS.

[101011]

Kilo 40, on 19 June 2014 - 10:29 PM, said:

I never saw the reason to bring one launcher

Here is one: Summoner Prime.

[Josef Nader]

I don't really understand this thread.

Let's just say that I bring a single LRM15 launcher with a mixed loadout and Joe brings a 4x LRM15 build with a few backup mediums. We both go into a match, lock onto a target, and fire, only to watch our missiles get chewed by 5-6 AMS. I shrug, stop firing my LRMs, and move in to use some of my other weapons. Joe sighs and fires again, watching 70-90% of his damage get chewed by AMS and dealing minimal damage to the enemy team despite devoting 28/14 tons plus ammo to a weapons system. We both spot an ECM mech. I trade blows using my direct fire weaponry, at no significant disadvantage in exposure time. Joe groans and waddles in to try and hold a TAG lock, getting pummeled by direct fire weapons and not dealing any real damage.

In order to use any other weapons system in the game, you need to be patient, conserve your ammunition, and wait for an opportune moment to use your firepower. Why are LRMs any different? Watch for AMS clouds, and if you see them make sure you have enough backup firepower to hold your own till the enemy group breaks up a bit and you can start punching through it. Blobbing missiles at clouds of AMS and ECM and then complaining that you aren't effective is like complaining that cover too effectively counters your gauss rifle. Pure LRM boats are terrible, single or paired launchers on mixed loadouts are worth their weight in gold.

Edited by Josef Nader, 20 June 2014 - 09:19 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Josef Nader, on 20 June 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

I don't really understand this thread.

Let's just say that I bring a single LRM15 launcher with a nixed loadout and Joe brings a 4x LRM15 build with a few backup mediums. We both go into a match, lock onto a target, and fire, only to watch our missiles get chewed by 5-6 AMS. I shrug, stop firing my LRMs, and move in to use some of my other weapons. Joe sighs and fires again, watching 70-90% of his damage get chewed by AMS and dealing minimal damage to the enemy team despite devoting 28/14 tons plus ammo to a weapons system. We both spot an ECM mech. I trade blows using my direct fire weaponry, at no significant disadvantage in exposure time. Joe groans and waddles in to try and hold a TAG lock, getting pummeled by direct fire weapons and not dealing any real damage.

In order to use any other weapons system in the game, you need to be patient, conserve your ammunition, and wait for an opportune moment to use your firepower. Why are LRMs any different? Watch for AMS clouds, and if you see them make sure you have enough backup firepower to hold your own till the enemy group breaks up a bit and you can start punching through it. Blobbing missiles at clouds of AMS and ECM and then complaining that you aren't effective is like complaining that cover too effectively counters your gauss rifle. Pure LRM boats are terrible, single or paired launchers on mixed loadouts are worth their weight in gold.

You're absolutely correct on this, Joseph. There is one issue with it that I think everyone and their mother agrees with: AMS, dual AMS, triple AMS, AMS range and rate of fire modules, flak module (is that still coming?), and ECM all limit or hard counter LRM use. Know what modules/equipment exist to limit/hard counter all of the other weapons? *crickets*

Most of this is the problem of PGI for their lack of appropriate LRM coding. Bone targetting should be pushed to LRMs as it is with Streaks. Indirect fire should have greater miss potential and there should be a flat trajectory to targets you have LOS. Any and all of that would make LRMs better weapons when things go right while still having the current counters (or less of them). The thing is, PGI doesn't seem to get any of this. They added ghost heat to LRMs when heat isn't a problem with the weapon anyway - adding more heat to something that only builds like 4-5 heat anyway is pointless. But, I can run 4 LRM15s or 20s and still lock on within 1.5s if I have the equipment. PGI and the community is fearful of LRM boating but have gone in teh completely WRONG direction to limit and prevent it. So, the potential of the single launcher and mixed loadout is lessened because everyone is taking LRM counters due to the fear of the LRM60+ mechs and not us frankenmechers. We get screwed completely while the moron in the back blind firing still makes out just fine.

[Roadkill]

I'm finding that the opposite is true, at least on Clan Mechs. I've been adding an LRM-15 to every Mech I have because a single launcher is useful again.

That's partly due to the fact that it's an extra weapon on a Clan Mech. I can carry one and still have a full complement of direct fire weapons. But I do find the single (or paired) launcher more useful now than before.

[Jeb]

l33tworks, on 19 June 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

You guys are not factoring the sheer amount of damage they deliver, both in terms of, psychological damage, supressing you, changing your play style etc, and damaging your mech. No other weapon does this. People ignore taking most other damage but not LRMS.
On top of this the accuracy and how fast they can fire and damage mechs, LRMS are just too devastating not to have as many counters to it as possible. Even with expert players shooting at you you can easily make it accorss a field when PPCs or Acs or lasers are being shot at you, and you will come out with 90% health. If you get targeted by LRMS it just shredds you to death in seconds.

Boating Weapons of any type deals more damage obviously.

Agreed... one of the biggest issues I have with LRMs is when the other team has them and my team doesn't... It means the LRMs can keep my team somewhat pinned down and limited on movement unless they want their armor stripped off before they get to the fight even, while the other team has full freedom to move where they want...

IMO LRMs unless your firing them with line of sight, are support weapons, and they do that role great... (which seems fair to me since if your not sitting in line of sight you are also not really opening yourself to much risk...)

[Zerberus]

Koniving, on 19 June 2014 - 10:28 PM, said:

Honestly my twin SRM-6, 1 LRM-20 Timberwolf hasn't had any real trouble. Sometimes there's enough AMS to wipe out all the missiles and when there is I go for someone else.

It'd been doing pretty good for me.

Yep, I just copied this Battlemaster BLR-1S

Onto this Timber Wolf TBR-PRIME

And it`s just evil, at least when it works at all

I have the impression that the battlemaster is more dangerous when LRMs can be used top full effect, and the Timber Wolf is better when the battle gets fast and furious. In both mechs there have been situations where I wish I had been in the other one, and situations where I wish I have brought something with instant LOS damage.

Edited by Zerberus, 20 June 2014 - 09:40 AM.

[Fut]

l33tworks, on 19 June 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

You guys are not factoring the sheer amount of damage they deliver, both in terms of, psychological damage, supressing you, changing your play style etc, and damaging your mech. No other weapon does this. People ignore taking most other damage but not LRMS.
On top of this the accuracy and how fast they can fire and damage mechs, LRMS are just too devastating not to have as many counters to it as possible. Even with expert players shooting at you you can easily make it accorss a field when PPCs or Acs or lasers are being shot at you, and you will come out with 90% health. If you get targeted by LRMS it just shredds you to death in seconds.

Boating Weapons of any type deals more damage obviously.

It's hard to ignore LRMs, but that's only because of the flashing warning and alarms going off.
This doesn't mean that LRMs are good by any means, all it means is that it's abundantly obvious when they're being used against you.

[Jeb]

Trauglodyte, on 20 June 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

You're absolutely correct on this, Joseph. There is one issue with it that I think everyone and their mother agrees with: AMS, dual AMS, triple AMS, AMS range and rate of fire modules, flak module (is that still coming?), and ECM all limit or hard counter LRM use. Know what modules/equipment exist to limit/hard counter all of the other weapons? *crickets*

Most of this is the problem of PGI for their lack of appropriate LRM coding. Bone targetting should be pushed to LRMs as it is with Streaks. Indirect fire should have greater miss potential and there should be a flat trajectory to targets you have LOS. Any and all of that would make LRMs better weapons when things go right while still having the current counters (or less of them). The thing is, PGI doesn't seem to get any of this. They added ghost heat to LRMs when heat isn't a problem with the weapon anyway - adding more heat to something that only builds like 4-5 heat anyway is pointless. But, I can run 4 LRM15s or 20s and still lock on within 1.5s if I have the equipment. PGI and the community is fearful of LRM boating but have gone in teh completely WRONG direction to limit and prevent it. So, the potential of the single launcher and mixed loadout is lessened because everyone is taking LRM counters due to the fear of the LRM60+ mechs and not us frankenmechers. We get screwed completely while the moron in the back blind firing still makes out just fine.

You have some good points, but the main reason for all the counters is the indirect fire ability... no other weapons have that ability so they don't need the counters the LRMs do...
TAG... BAP... and put yourself at risk with line of sight, and most the counters are gone...
AMS is highly effective at the start of a match if yo have a few with it close together, but ammo gets chewed up fast as most players only take 1ton as AMS is situational and is wasted tons if you end up against a team with few missiles..

Personally I think LRMs are fine how they are, and people should not ever rely on only one weapon system otherwise they may find themselves on the wrong end of a paper/rock/scissors situation.

Edited by Jeb, 20 June 2014 - 09:52 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Useless? HA. When every mech is carrying LRMs even a single launcher is useful. There's way too may lrms ATM which is the problem.

[Josef Nader]

Except I don't feel screwed at all. My LRMs work fine. IThey let me fire over and around cover, and support allies when my LOS is blocked or I can't fire other weapons because I might hit teammates. My point is that my LRMs work perfectly, and AMS, ECM, modules, and flight paths don't stop that.

You have to learn to lead projectile weapons and keep beam weapons on target. LRMs lock and track and avoid cover. The challenge for them comes from learning to avoid their counters.

[Trauglodyte]

Jeb, on 20 June 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

You have some good points, but the main reason for all the counters is the indirect fire ability... no other weapons have that ability so they don't need the counters the LRMs do...
TAG... BAP... and put yourself at risk with line of sight, and most the counters are gone...
AMS is highly effective at the start of a match if yo have a few with it close together, but ammo gets chewed up fast as most players on take 1ton as AMS is situational and is wasted tons if you end up against a team with few missiles..

That's the point. All of this really exists because of indirect fire and that is the thing that PGI isn't doing anything to fix.

Josef Nader, on 20 June 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

Except I don't feel screwed at all. My LRMs work fine. IThey let me fire over and around cover, and support allies when my LOS is blocked or I can't fire other weapons because I might hit teammates. My point is that my LRMs work perfectly, and AMS, ECM, modules, and flight paths don't stop that.

You have to learn to lead projectile weapons and keep beam weapons on target. LRMs lock and track and avoid cover. The challenge for them comes from learning to avoid their counters.

I don't feel screwed either. But, I'm smart enough to just move on to another target or, because I never build any mech solely around LRMs, I just use other weapons.

Seriously, it is the idiot LRM boater that is the cause for all of these problems and it is why we can't have nice things. Bad f'ed up this game in beta and continue to do so now. It is also why there is so little skill and thinking in this game because most people are from the very bottom of the intelligence pool, it feels like.

[Sephlock]

l33tworks, on 19 June 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

You guys are not factoring the sheer amount of damage they deliver, both in terms of, psychological damage, supressing you, changing your play style etc, and damaging your mech. No other weapon does this. People ignore taking most other damage but not LRMS.

Maybe if we gave LRMs trigger warnings? Or is THAT the purpose of INCOMING MISSILE warnings ?

Quote

On top of this the accuracy and how fast they can fire and damage mechs, LRMS are just too devastating not to have as many counters to it as possible. Even with expert players shooting at you you can easily make it accorss a field when PPCs or Acs or lasers are being shot at you, and you will come out with 90% health. If you get targeted by LRMS it just shredds you to death in seconds.

lol

Pygar, on 19 June 2014 - 10:33 PM, said:

Ya know....since there are so many ways to hose missiles these days....can we have something like smoke dispensers to screw over direct fire players too? Like really good ones we can use like, a lot?

"Wow, you didn't have a very good match in that Jager bro...what happened? Oh, they had smoke dispensers everywhere...couldn't get more than two shots off all match."

Yeah...I want that. Like now.

http://www.sarna.net.../Reactive_Armor


http://www.sarna.net...eflective_Armor

http://www.sarna.net...le_Field_Damper

[Xarian]

Single LRM launchers are not useless at all.
Try using them at medium range (400 m or so) when you are firing your other weapons; it gives AMS less time to shoot at them.
Try using them when your teammates are also shooting their LRMs; overload the enemy AMS.
Try using them against stragglers; they don't have their teammates' AMS.

[Ph30nix]

currently havnt had to deal with someone having Radar Dep mod
but i gotta say Clan missles seem to hurt ALOT more then IS ones (when they hit) thinking because the stagger fire greatly reduces missle spread.

LRM targeting though does need a rework and instead of doing that they as usual threw a bandaid on it that was soaked in bubonic plague

[El Bandito]

Xarian, on 20 June 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Single LRM launchers are not useless at all. Try using them at medium range (400 m or so) when you are firing your other weapons; it gives AMS less time to shoot at them. Try using them when your teammates are also shooting their LRMs; overload the enemy AMS. Try using them against stragglers; they don't have their teammates' AMS.

Need to point out that AMS default range is 120, and with range module it is 136. Shooting from 400 meters away will still make AMS function well at max range. You other points make me think just how situational LRMs have become when compared with other weapons.
PGI really shouldn't make a major weapon hit or miss based on hard counter, hard counter which were not in this timeline. LRM and its counters need a rework for it to have its impact on all levels of play.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 June 2014 - 10:16 AM.