228 replies to this topic

[NRP]

It takes no skill to sling LRMs.

What does take skill is spotting (TAGing, NARCing, etc). If a team has dedicated spotters, well . . . there's not much you can do about it.

[Master Maniac]

Kassatsu, on 21 June 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

Yeah man, I tried to move my dire wolf at the start of a match and got hit by LRMs because my throttle wasn't 0%... Wait, what?

In all seriousness... Kill the spotter(s) or shoot them with a small laser at 175 meters, chances are they'll instantly run away and drop the lock on you, leaving ample time to do something crazy like, I don't know, get out of the way or something. Most (MOST) maps have plenty of cover to move between, even for an assault mech, while moving up towards the LRM boats.

Not like those brawlers or poptarts you come across on the way are any real threat, right? Just ignore them and keep going, you'll get to your OP LRM boats that are the sole deciding factor of a match. Maybe.

I've been playing this game since almost the beginning of open beta. I think I have a pretty thorough understanding of the underlying game mechanics, thanks.

That mythical "cover" the apologists always love to invoke only seems to exist where it is convenient for their argument. For example, cover doesn't matter when there are OMG 8 GAUSS PINPOINT DEATH BOATS on argument.

My 10 gauss 12 ppc Cataphract can't shoot over cover, FYI. LRMs CAN, and WILL. Very few obstacles are valid protection against LRM spam, and even then, that's not even remotely the core of the issue. The problem remains that they are crap weapons for lazy players, and defended fervently by the worst of the worst of this (deplorable) community.

[Deathlike]

Koniving, on 21 June 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Truth be told I haven't been having problem with SRM ammo. Got twin 6's, 200 missiles. Seem to do fairly well. I just don't bother with Artemis.

Personally, I cannot fathom why someone decided that 100 was the number to divide into 6. Damn you ~17 shots!

Quote

There is that, but at 6.5 seconds per LRM-5, okay so you fire them all at once and you get out 20 missiles.
Of that against 1 AMS that's 3 missiles destroyed. Against 2 that's 7 missiles destroyed (3.5 per second each) and that's assuming it takes 1 second to hit the target after getting within AMS range.

That 1 AMS effectively destroyed 6.6 damage worth of missiles. The twin AMS got rid of 13.2 damage worth of missiles. AMS overload, various other things, and well your 40 to 44 damage in 6.5 damage seconds is bound to run into problems unless used against stragglers or people foolish enough not to use AMS.

The only thing is since DPS is the same, you have an identical problem now except the missiles are worth half as much when shot down, so that one AMS only got rid of 3.3 damage. Then you have the spam, where the enemy can't see. The spam...where the enemy is too afraid to move. The spam...which trapped the enemy. The spam... which has psychologically demoralized the enemy into and I quote, "**** this! I'm not playing this ****. I quit."

What it's effectively trying to remove and the only thing it is trying to remove is the spam. Nothing else.

Any and all other problems would still exist of course; those are issues fundamentally with how PGI did the individual weapons. My idea is just how to remove the spam without buffing or nerfing anything [it takes 2 firings and merges them into one, then makes you wait twice as long to reload and fire again.] (though the ammo count change is another counter measure to spam; because every missile is worth more and you get fewer of them, you're less likely to fire just for the sake of firing. You'll be more likely to time your shots and only fire for the good hits. It also kinda makes dumb firing worth while against poptarts; since any missiles that hit would be worth twice as much damage).

(Thinking on it though... Currently LRM-5, 10 to 11 damage at 6.5 seconds. LRM-20 40 to 44 damage at 9.5 seconds. Yeah it's an identical problem with stacking LRM-5s; but the reasoning is easy to see. In their original design LRM-5s and 20s are meant to fire at the same speed; but PGI made 5's shoot faster. Evidently too much faster.)

While I don't really fear the missile boat feeds of doom, I do get annoyed by them, but usually that's resolvable. Any time that does work on me, I'm pretty sure I made a tactical error. People fail to recognize their own errors sometimes. That's just the difference between "omg lurms" vs "lol lurms" in any discussion about LRMs.

Edited by Deathlike, 21 June 2014 - 06:12 PM.

[Silverlance]

Master Maniac, on 21 June 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

I've been playing this game since almost the beginning of open beta. I think I have a pretty thorough understanding of the underlying game mechanics, thanks.

That mythical "cover" the apologists always love to invoke only seems to exist where it is convenient for their argument. For example, cover doesn't matter when there are OMG 8 GAUSS PINPOINT DEATH BOATS on argument.

My 10 gauss 12 ppc Cataphract can't shoot over cover, FYI. LRMs CAN, and WILL. Very few obstacles are valid protection against LRM spam, and even then, that's not even remotely the core of the issue. The problem remains that they are crap weapons for lazy players, and defended fervently by the worst of the worst of this (deplorable) community.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Well. I could. But the point is there. Well done.

[Impyrium]

These threads make me depressed.

[Belorion]

I rarely die to LRMs and it most certainly isn't the only thing I see.

[Yokaiko]

Silverlance, on 21 June 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

Couldn't have said it better myself. Well. I could. But the point is there. Well done.

Playing since open beta and finds "very few obstacles" to LRMs.

Yeah, great point.

AUSwarrior24, on 21 June 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

These threads make me depressed.

They are quite funny really. Its been the SAME complaint since closed beta.

Edited by Yokaiko, 21 June 2014 - 06:17 PM.

[Master Maniac]

Yokaiko, on 21 June 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

Playing since open beta and finds "very few obstacles" to LRMs.

Yeah, great point.

It really is, thanks. I'm glad you've come to your senses.

My points remain.

Quote

They are quite funny really. Its been the SAME complaint since closed beta

Well, shucks, I'd say that means there's a problem. It's been practically unaddressed since closed beta, too.

Edited by Master Maniac, 21 June 2014 - 06:20 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Silverlance, on 21 June 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

But that's what happens 98% of the time anyway. So what's your point?

So what the hell are people whining about? Complaining about ineffective weapon usage now?

[Silverlance]

Yokaiko, on 21 June 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

Playing since open beta and finds "very few obstacles" to LRMs.

Yeah, great point.

Actually, was here before Open Beta, just shy of the initial LRMaggeddon wave that happened. Facts are facts my Wolf brother. Or, sister. Most likely sister. Ahem.

Anyway. Look. I'm not trying to be a ****. I really am not. But defending LRMs and saying people need to be smarter is not a productive argument. You're essentially calling people stupid against a clearly broken mechanic that you may or may not use yourself because you find yourself winning. Wanting to win? Nothing wrong with it. I play to win. But doing anything to win at the sake of balance and fun is completely wrong and it's also cheap.

[Impyrium]

Master Maniac, on 21 June 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

I've been playing this game since almost the beginning of open beta. I think I have a pretty thorough understanding of the underlying game mechanics, thanks.

That mythical "cover" the apologists always love to invoke only seems to exist where it is convenient for their argument. For example, cover doesn't matter when there are OMG 8 GAUSS PINPOINT DEATH BOATS on argument.

My 10 gauss 12 ppc Cataphract can't shoot over cover, FYI. LRMs CAN, and WILL. Very few obstacles are valid protection against LRM spam, and even then, that's not even remotely the core of the issue. The problem remains that they are crap weapons for lazy players, and defended fervently by the worst of the worst of this (deplorable) community.

That's true, and I think both sides tend to bring up arguments that are countered with more counters which are counted by counters of counters...

But fact is, LRMs are near useless in anything but the open. Most maps have lots of cover, and frankly I don't understand why people think they're so good. Are these people dying by them, or using them? A missile boat is only useful as support, as by themselves aren't going to achieve many or any kills.

LRMs can be dodged. AMS is only partially useful, IMO, because it'll never fully defend you. LRMs can be seen coming. They are relatively slow. They are only useful in certain situations.

[Deathlike]

NRP, on 21 June 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

It takes no skill to sling LRMs.

What does take skill is spotting (TAGing, NARCing, etc). If a team has dedicated spotters, well . . . there's not much you can do about it.

TBH, I bring my own TAG.

I can't/won't trust my teammates to git' er done.

NARC Ravens always welcomed.

Edited by Deathlike, 21 June 2014 - 06:23 PM.

[Master Maniac]

AUSwarrior24, on 21 June 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:

That's true, and I think both sides tend to bring up arguments that are countered with more counters which are counted by counters of counters...

But fact is, LRMs are near useless in anything but the open. Most maps have lots of cover, and frankly I don't understand why people think they're so good. Are these people dying by them, or using them? A missile boat is only useful as support, as by themselves aren't going to achieve many or any kills.

LRMs can be dodged. AMS is only partially useful, IMO, because it'll never fully defend you. LRMs can be seen coming. They are relatively slow. They are only useful in certain situations.

They are "relatively slow," sure, but that means nothing since they can home in on you with next to 100% accuracy if you're in anything slower than a medium mech. Their speed is irrelevant. Sure, a fast mech can dodge LRMs with impunity (and I don't really think that should be the case) but anything slower than 70-80 kph doesn't stand a chance.

There is very little hard cover that LRMs will not very simply fly right over. The majority of defensive structures/landmasses that will stop direct fire will pose no defense against LRMs.

I've got no problem with LRMs as a concept. They need to be reevaluated, retooled, and revamped. As they are, they suck. They're skill-less. They're broken. They're quite simply bad. If you happen to like them as they are, well, that's fine. I'm sure I'd love a one-shot gauss rifle with autoaim.

Edited by Master Maniac, 21 June 2014 - 06:29 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Master Maniac, on 21 June 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

They are "relatively slow," sure, but that means nothing since they can home in on you with next to 100% accuracy if you're in anything slower than a medium mech. Their speed is irrelevant. Sure, a fast mech can dodge LRMs with impunity (and I don't really think that should be the case) but anything slower than 70-80 kph doesn't stand a chance.

I've got no problem with LRMs as a concept. They need to be reevaluated, retooled, and revamped. As they are, they suck. They're skill-less. They're broken. They're quite simply bad. If you happen to like them as they are, well, that's fine. I'm sure I'd love a one-shot gauss rifle with autoaim.

Funny I just played an entire game without getting hit by LRM spam.

[Sephlock]

Master Maniac, on 21 June 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

I've been playing this game since almost the beginning of open beta. I think I have a pretty thorough understanding of the underlying game mechanics, thanks.

That mythical "cover" the apologists always love to invoke only seems to exist where it is convenient for their argument. For example, cover doesn't matter when there are OMG 8 GAUSS PINPOINT DEATH BOATS on argument.

I was going to respond sarcastically to you, but then I realized that I am in the presence of a true master.

Please, teach me how to follow you on The Path of The Neo

I mean, clearly, you are able to dodge gauss and PPC rounds as easily as we mere mortals might hold down S and A (or S and D), or just S.

Quote

My 10 gauss 12 ppc Cataphract can't shoot over cover, FYI. LRMs CAN, and WILL. Very few obstacles are valid protection against LRM spam, and even then, that's not even remotely the core of the issue. The problem remains that they are crap weapons for lazy players, and defended fervently by the worst of the worst of this (deplorable) community.

Lol @ "Very few". if you are standing with a wall to your right and an LRM boat to your left (or in front of you), then yes... the wall won't help you very much.

And in point of fact your gauss ppc cataphract CAN shoot over cover. Hold down the space bar for a bit... I know this may be new to you but I assure you certain players have known about this trick for some time.

[Master Maniac]

Yokaiko, on 21 June 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

Funny I just played an entire game without getting hit by LRM spam.

WOW ONE WHOLE MATCH?

Sephlock, on 21 June 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

I was going to respond sarcastically to you, but then I realized that I am in the presence of a true master.

Please, teach me how to follow you on The Path of The Neo

I mean, clearly, you are able to dodge gauss and PPC rounds as easily as we mere mortals might hold down S and A (or S and D), or just S.





Lol @ "Very few". if you are standing with a wall to your right and an LRM boat to your left (or in front of you), then yes... the wall won't help you very much.

And in point of fact your gauss ppc cataphract CAN shoot over cover. Hold down the space bar for a bit... I know this may be new to you but I assure you certain players have known about this trick for some time.

Your entire post is complete nonsense. Not insulting you. Just saying it like it is.

You want to know about that "trick" involving jump jets? It requires actual AIMING. FYI.

[Silverlance]

Something I just remembered.

Look at the videos involving missile firing on mechs. IE the MW3 intro video. Or that one video where a Timberwolf and Summoner get ***** by a lance of smaller mechs in a city. But yah.

Point is.

Perfect solution, at least in my mind.

Make missile fire completely random and hit in completely random parts of a mech's body. Make them fly wildly rather than in a neat little pattern of doom and death from above and make it to where you can only fire LRMs on a mech that you have complete line of sight on. No more piggy backing on the targeting of your lancemates, UNLESS they carry NARC and/or TAG.

[Master Maniac]

Silverlance, on 21 June 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Something I just remembered.

Look at the videos involving missile firing on mechs. IE the MW3 intro video. Or that one video where a Timberwolf and Summoner get ***** by a lance of smaller mechs in a city. But yah.

Point is.

Perfect solution, at least in my mind.

Make missile fire completely random and hit in completely random parts of a mech's body. Make them fly wildly rather than in a neat little pattern of doom and death from above and make it to where you can only fire LRMs on a mech that you have complete line of sight on. No more piggy backing on the targeting of your lancemates, UNLESS they carry NARC and/or TAG.

I'm ALL for the line-of-sight mechanic. That would essentially fix this problem in one fell swoop. Want indirect fire? WORK FOR IT. Otherwise, you have to expose yourself if you want to take a shot, just like the rest of us.

I'd even be up for increasing LRM damage if it meant that LOS is required for LRM lock, sans spotter TAG or NARC.

Edited by Master Maniac, 21 June 2014 - 06:35 PM.

[Kassatsu]

Silverlance, on 21 June 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Look at the videos involving missile firing on mechs. IE the MW3 intro video. Or that one video where a Timberwolf and Summoner get ***** by a lance of smaller mechs in a city. But yah.

This isn't MW3. It never will be. Even I've accepted that fact.

As for the poptarts requiring aiming: Yes. You point at the red square and left cli-HEY THAT SOUNDS FAMILIAR!

[Lyoto Machida]

Master Maniac, on 21 June 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

It really is, thanks. I'm glad you've come to your senses.

My points remain.



Well, shucks, I'd say that means there's a problem. It's been practically unaddressed since closed beta, too.

Silverlance, on 21 June 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

Couldn't have said it better myself. Well. I could. But the point is there. Well done.

Are you guys dying to LRMs more than 10% of the time? If so, you're doing it wrong.