116 replies to this topic

[Flaming oblivion]

1453 R, on 20 June 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

No. They're not. It's actually the targeting system that's OP.

R key OP. Piranha plz nerf.

Cept there the only weapon that needs a lock to fire (alright you can fire without a lock theres a reason almost no one does tho) the

[Ronan]

All the "X are OP" posters need to not make new threads, but post in the "X is UP" threads that already exist. And vice versa.

[Gunboat2305]

For all the people that say LRMS are not op and that all the hard counters are dumb I want to ask this. Is ok that at the start of river city night i get ct by lrms at 1:43 in my warhawk due to that fact i took 5 steps to go group up with my team but the game is like no we will spawn 3 lrm boats and a tag in the enemy drop zone that im near.

now LRM people will tell me to use cover but that dropship im by dose **** for LRM cover

whats next hum they cry ams I had 1 ams did not save me

oh and then they cry ecm I cant take one and the lance i got put in did not have one
so then people say play ecm if you dont like LRMS but im not going to play a mech I dont like to just get an ecm

so why is it that LRM are not op when they are the only wep that can do this at the start of a game? and dont need line of sight which is what lets it do this

all i say is LRMs should not CT that easy

and no art should hit LA LT CT RT RA and art should get you LT CT RT more so then just CT with almost full LT AND RT armor when you die

Edited by TitanTwo, 20 June 2014 - 12:30 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

1453 R, on 20 June 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

No. They're not. It's actually the targeting system that's OP.

R key OP. Piranha plz nerf.

R key when locking onto someone else's visual should take longer to get a lock. Make it feel like a +1 to hit spotting Modifier!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 20 June 2014 - 12:28 PM.

[Varik Ronain]

I think at this point after all of the equipment and modules added to counter LRMs and the fact that maps have built in cover to hide behind that the real problem is the OP. Some people are just not good at this game and that is ok... but you cannot expect anyone to believe anything in the original post that started this thread.

[WarHippy]

Noth, on 20 June 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Yet you have games like LoL which look at both top players and the general public and thus balance around both. They often take champions that are pug stompers, yet suck in high competitive play and re-balance them so that they are less of a pugstomper, and better for competitive play. This however takes more than simple number changes.

LoL still balances around the top quite a bit. When they take a champ that over performs in lower brackets and sucks in higher ones the answer is to remake them so they are more functional in all brackets, but what they generally don't do is nerf them like the OP is asking for with regard to LRMs. The fact that the top players don't really seem to use LRMs doesn't necessarily mean they need buffed, but neither does the fact that some complaining that they are too strong mean they need to be nerfed. It might just be that they are fine as is, or that they need a change in mechanic to make them more functional across the board.

[Lyoto Machida]

Good one, OP!

[Noth]

WarHippy, on 20 June 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

LoL still balances around the top quite a bit. When they take a champ that over performs in lower brackets and sucks in higher ones the answer is to remake them so they are more functional in all brackets, but what they generally don't do is nerf them like the OP is asking for with regard to LRMs. The fact that the top players don't really seem to use LRMs doesn't necessarily mean they need buffed, but neither does the fact that some complaining that they are too strong mean they need to be nerfed. It might just be that they are fine as is, or that they need a change in mechanic to make them more functional across the board.

They need redone along with a nerf to poptarting.

[Lyoto Machida]

TitanTwo, on 20 June 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

For all the people that say LRMS are not op and that all the hard counters are dumb I want to ask this. Is ok that at the start of river city night i get ct by lrms at 1:43 in my warhawk due to that fact i took 5 steps to go group up with my team but the game is like no we will spawn 3 lrm boats and a tag in the enemy drop zone that im near.

now LRM people will tell me to use cover but that dropship im by dose **** for LRM cover

whats next hum they cry ams I had 1 ams did not save me

oh and then they cry ecm I cant take one and the lance i got put in did not have one
so then people say play ecm if you dont like LRMS but im not going to play a mech I dont like to just get an ecm

so why is it that LRM are not op when they are the only wep that can do this at the start of a game? and dont need line of sight which is what lets it do this

all i say is LRMs should not CT that easy

and no art should hit LA LT CT RT RA and art should get you LT CT RT more so then just CT with almost full LT AND RT armor when you die

Ever try standing UNDER the dropshp?

[WarHippy]

Sandpit, on 20 June 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

We're talking LESS than 1% of the player population. Even if we're sitting at say (just for example) 40,000 ACTIVE players (which I sincerely doubt it's that high personally) That's less than 400 players. That's nowhere near a big enough sample size to determine any kind of balancing decisions

I agree with you that looking to the less than 1% is a poor way to go about it, but it does seem to be a common practice of developers or at least somewhere that they go for direct feedback.

[Wolfways]

R3qUi3M, on 20 June 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

Let me phrase this: I can play any mech (got like 3000 battles behind me). And i see that i totally trash people up in LRM boat - constantly doing 700dmg per game. I dont have a problem trashig people up but this has reached a point where I feel forced to play a LRM boat.

So you can do well in any mech yet feel you need to play an LRM boat....why?
I can tell you why you are doing really well with LRM's. You are in a low ELO bracket where players haven't learned to avoid LRM's yet. No other weapon is as dependent on the ability of the target.

Btw, LRM's spread the damage so high damage scores are not an indication of how well you do in a match.

[Sandpit]

WarHippy, on 20 June 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

LoL still balances around the top quite a bit. When they take a champ that over performs in lower brackets and sucks in higher ones the answer is to remake them so they are more functional in all brackets, but what they generally don't do is nerf them like the OP is asking for with regard to LRMs. The fact that the top players don't really seem to use LRMs doesn't necessarily mean they need buffed, but neither does the fact that some complaining that they are too strong mean they need to be nerfed. It might just be that they are fine as is, or that they need a change in mechanic to make them more functional across the board.

the point is that you don't balance exclusively for that one small portion of the population. You can use it as a starting point but less than 1% of the population that plays in very rigid and highly coordinated matches with a full team are not in any way representative of 99% of the rest of the population

[General Taskeen]

Targeting and radar was just plain better in the previous games. That is why this is an issue that continues to pop on these forums, especially on maps with bare minimum cover.

Tag/narc were the only things that allowed firing over obstacles. In MWO you can get fired at by Mechs you don't even see, by spotter Mechs that aren't even using tag/narc, and those spotters don't even need to be a Light Mech. TAG/NARC were simplified into stats, and ECM is negated by NARC. Its basically all backwards and incredibly shallow.

I understand the issue OP and the root causes are plain as day.

Edited by General Taskeen, 20 June 2014 - 12:38 PM.

[Pygar]

Sandpit, on 20 June 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

not that I agree with the OP but how does less than 1% of the player population prove anything regarding weapon usage and it being "op"?

Simple....it's not the players so much- it's the tactics. 12 man teams blob up and go directly toward the enemy and their base- if the enemy does not meet them somewhere in the middle they go for the base, which forces the other team to come and fight them (this is referred to as "Death Balling") ....sprinkle in a little bit of ECM to go with this strategy, and LRM boats will be lucky to fire 2 waves of missiles before the enemy is right on top of them forcing a brawl.

That is why LRMs don't "work" in 12 mans...and they wouldn't "work" in PUGs either but PUGs tend to not group as well (some even just totally do their thing and mostly ignore their team) and also PUGs tend to ignore base rushes, preferring to stay back to play "hide and snipe", and will even sometimes cry "foul!" if the other team base rushes them.

Edited by Pygar, 20 June 2014 - 12:41 PM.

[Sandpit]

WarHippy, on 20 June 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

I agree with you that looking to the less than 1% is a poor way to go about it, but it does seem to be a common practice of developers or at least somewhere that they go for direct feedback.

in my experience they use it as a starting point. here the starting point is whatever is most convenient and usually based on data collected over 48 hours during abnormal gaming conditions and used to help justify balancing decisions made. The whole LRM buff and then immediate nerf is a good example.

LRMs buffed
team tournament going on over the weekend
Paul watches a couple of dozen matches based on an abnormal gaming environment
Paul makes a weapon adjustment based on that

that's exactly what happened although I gave the reader's digest version. It's lazy

That's not who you achieve a more balanced game experience for the entire community

Pygar, on 20 June 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

Simple....it's not the players so much- it's the tactics. 12 man teams blob up and go directly toward the enemy and their base- if the enemy does not meet them somewhere in the middle they go for the base, which forces the other team to come and fight them....sprinkle in a little bit of ECM to go with this strategy, and LRM boats will be lucky to fire 2 waves of missiles before the enemy is right on top of them forcing a brawl.

That is why LRMs don't "work" in 12 mans...and they wouldn't "work" in PUGs either but PUGs tend to not group as well (some even just totally do their thing and mostly ignore their team) and also PUGs tend to ignore base rushes, preferring to stay back to play "hide and snipe", and will even sometimes cry "foul!" if the other team base rushes them.

which again shows exactly why you don't base things like weapon balance for the entire community on one portion of the population that's under 1% of the total

[Gloris]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 June 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

Weapons that are boated to be effective are not OP. If a single LRM was racking up kills then yes. But if I need 50+ to be painful, LRMs are not even close to OP.

Ah so jagermechs for example "boat" 2 ac20s cause one is totally weak and UP, same with the ac5&ac2 only builds that ran arround before the AC nerfs, done because weapon UP and you HAVE to boat it.
Because if they were to strong back then jagers would only have fitted one ac2 and not needed the rest.
Guess that is why poptarts use TWO Ac5s and TWO PPCs, cause they are to weak to be used with ONE.

I see your reasoning
It makes perfect sense to me.

Edited by Gloris, 20 June 2014 - 12:41 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Gloris, on 20 June 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

Ah so jagermechs for example "boat" 2 ac20s cause one is totally weak and UP, same with the ac5&ac2 only builds that ran arround before the AC nerfs, done because weapon UP and you HAVE to boat it.
Because if they were to strong back then jagers would only have fitted one ac2 and not needed the rest.

I see your reasoning
It makes perfect sense to me.

I guess that's why guys running custom builds with a single LRM10 rack is so prevalent nowadays. More common than Timberwolves, even.

[Sandpit]

Gloris, on 20 June 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

Ah so jagermechs for example "boat" 2 ac20s cause one is totally weak and UP, same with the ac5&ac2 only builds that ran arround before the AC nerfs, done because weapon UP and you HAVE to boat it.
Because if they were to strong back then jagers would only have fitted one ac2 and not needed the rest.
Guess that is why poptarts use TWO Ac5s and TWO PPCs, cause they are to weak to be used with ONE.

I see your reasoning
It makes perfect sense to me.

no, weapons that are only considered "op" WHEN they're boated are not truly "op" is what Joe is saying. If you can't run in with one AC20 and "pwn" everyone, then it's not "OP".

An LRM20 is not "op"
Facing 6 mechs with 2 LRM20's each doesn't magically make that weapon "op", it makes it deadly when used by a coordinated team. There's a huge difference.
Does that help it makes sense to you now?

Guess that's why you never see anyone complain that a stock Catapult is "op" right? smh

[Pygar]

Sandpit, on 20 June 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

which again shows exactly why you don't base things like weapon balance for the entire community on one portion of the population that's under 1% of the total

I can see what you are saying- in MWO's case for 12 mans and LRMs... it isn't exactly the missiles that are the problem, it's more that mechs are too fast or maps are too small. (maybe both) 12 man tactics are just taking maximum advantage of the map size and victory conditions and LRM boats getting hosed in the process is just icing on the cake.

Edited by Pygar, 20 June 2014 - 12:48 PM.

[Sandpit]

Pygar, on 20 June 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

I can see what you are saying- in MWO's case for 12 mans and LRMs... it isn't exactly the missiles that are the problem, it's more that mechs are too fast or maps are too small. (maybe both) 12 man tactics are just taking maximum advantage of the map and victory conditions and LRM boats getting hosed in the process is just icing on the cake.

I'm just trying to point out that PGI is making a mistake by balancing ANYthing based on 12man competition. Less than 1% of your player population isn't what you should be balancing ANYthing for.