215 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

yalk, on 22 June 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

+1 Bishop.....pinpoint instant damage is the real enemy....coincidentally, this was also true in CBT....yeah LBX gave you a chance to roll multiple snake eyes and bypass armor but...a single 20 pointer or double tap 40 pointer to the same location worked to remove mechs from the map just as well or better, who cares about crits? You just plowed through all the outer armor center torso, internals and out the back...

Fun fact: if your having trouble with clan mechs close range having to core them fully instead of just a side torso, aim for the legs...none of the Clan mechs have necessarily favorable leg hit boxes or profiles (they are fairly easy to hit), you can nail them no matter how the clanner twists. They are fairly well armored, but less than going through side AND center torso...and you just eliminated the movement advantage in a stroke, then take their arms (they'll be easy to hit as they just lost a leg) and leave them to limp...you just took their mobility and 95% of their firepower...

I've killed quite a few clan mechs (with a clan mech, but close range and DOT weapons) by double legging, if you strip the outer armor then you've got better than average odds of taking both legs out simultaneously with sweeping laser fire...

I know this works on most mechs, but the clan mechs share leg structures....learn to hit one type and your golden....

It's a death sentence when you lose your ability to dodge those big damage dealing pin point strikes

yeah.... you want a sinking feeling? Lose the leg on your Direwolf or Warhawk. You KNOW you are toast. I have fought and won on one legged mechs before, but most of my Clan mechs are leg damage magnets. And the fatties already are pretty immobile.

[Gyrok]

Techorse, on 21 June 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

I wonder how many times I'll get to post this:

Clans are not OP if you're smart. And if you still don't believe me, there's always ECM and the pooptart PPC/AC meta that's far more OP than anything team test tube can cook up.

Other than the ECM/Gauss/ERPPC meta you can run on many of the mechs that is...

Edited by Gyrok, 22 June 2014 - 08:42 AM.

[Torgun]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

And I am pointing out it is not a false assumption. And that you seem the only one unaware of it. The Orion has more firepower available BECAUSE it is not artificially constrained to a higher engine like the TimberWolf is. Your fallacious assertion is that the only "fair" comparison is to make the Orion use the same engine, and you totally miss the point that because of perfect imbalance, and it NOT being apples to apples is exactly the balancer in the IS favor. The advantage, one of several for the IS, is that they have greater freedom to customize, and thus tailor their loadout for effect. I don't have to move the same speed as a Timberwolf to counter it. You are the one adding an artificial constraint to balancing that simply doesn't exist in the game.



There are no if ands or buts about THAT.

Not trying to be snippy, man. (Though I think I failed, lol). Just pointing out that it really is not a 1v1 comparo between the two because of the build and design mechanics locking and limiting each one, in different ways.

You can't compare free weight on mechs by having engines in them that run in entirely different speeds, because that comparison has no value whatsoever, and that goes for IS or Clan mechs. Of course you'll have more weight to spare if you run a much smaller engine, like who the heck doesn't know that? And TW does have a weight saving advantage compared to an IS mech of similar speed. That is simply undeniable.

[Bishop Steiner]

Torgun, on 22 June 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

You can't compare free weight on mechs by having engines in them that run in entirely different speeds, because that comparison has no value whatsoever, and that goes for IS or Clan mechs. Of course you'll have more weight to spare if you run a much smaller engine, like who the heck doesn't know that? And TW does have a weight saving advantage compared to an IS mech of similar speed. That is simply undeniable.

WHICH IS THE POINT I AM MAKING.

You can spare the weight on the Orion, to increase it's firepower, which in many situations, will be MORE useful than the speed on the Timberwolf.

You cannot force a comparison between "mechs of similar speed" because IS Mechs are not constrained the way the cores of Clan Mechs are. Just as I could say...well, if I only use Standard Structure, and put a 350xl in my Cataphract 3D, and MAx JJs, why it is less efficient than the Summoner.......

except I have the ability to decide if I want to add endo to the Cataphract, or to only pack a couple of JJs, or even to run a smaller engine, because I don't feel the extra 5 kph is worth the loss in firepower. In the Summoner, or the TimberWolf, I don't have that option. It's less noticeable in the TWolf because it uses maxed tech in every area, and it gets to cheat using pod mounted JJs. But it is still stuck with a 375xl, and only 27.5 tons for weapons. No matter what. And the Orion in the example, not only is not so constrained (because when in CQB that extra speed is not as big a deal), but also doesn't lose all arm reflex if it mounts PPCs or ACs, and it's ACs are PPFLD to boot.

Yes, the TW has a weight saving advantage over and IS mech forced to move the same speed. But the point of BALANCE is the IS Mech has several features available to it that the Clan Mech does not, to balance that.

Gyrok, on 22 June 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

Other than the ECM/Gauss/ERPPC meta you can run on many of the mechs that is...

pretty sure ECM is only on one ATM.

[Dakshinamurthy]

Are you seriously trying to argue that the timber wolf isn't op? I mean the rest of the clan mechs I think it's safe to hold back judgement on. The timber wolf is godly op, I think you are underestimating the advantage of 90kph and xl's that don't blow when you lose a torso. Just look at the dragon, it has all sorts of drawbacks to balance it for going so fast, and then notice how the TW has none of those drawbacks.

[Torgun]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

WHICH IS THE POINT I AM MAKING.

You can spare the weight on the Orion, to increase it's firepower, which in many situations, will be MORE useful than the speed on the Timberwolf.

You cannot force a comparison between "mechs of similar speed" because IS Mechs are not constrained the way the cores of Clan Mechs are. Just as I could say...well, if I only use Standard Structure, and put a 350xl in my Cataphract 3D, and MAx JJs, why it is less efficient than the Summoner.......

except I have the ability to decide if I want to add endo to the Cataphract, or to only pack a couple of JJs, or even to run a smaller engine, because I don't feel the extra 5 kph is worth the loss in firepower. In the Summoner, or the TimberWolf, I don't have that option. It's less noticeable in the TWolf because it uses maxed tech in every area, and it gets to cheat using pod mounted JJs. But it is still stuck with a 375xl, and only 27.5 tons for weapons. No matter what. And the Orion in the example, not only is not so constrained (because when in CQB that extra speed is not as big a deal), but also doesn't lose all arm reflex if it mounts PPCs or ACs, and it's ACs are PPFLD to boot.

Yes, the TW has a weight saving advantage over and IS mech forced to move the same speed. But the point of BALANCE is the IS Mech has several features available to it that the Clan Mech does not, to balance that.


pretty sure ECM is only on one ATM.

The discussion we're having is about free weight on mechs, before you suddenly started to add what you'd consider balance. I've always been fond of faster Heavy mechs and ran lots with Dragons despite the overall weakness of it. And from all I've seen while spectating, fighting and looking up stats on clan weaponry, the TW is so much better than the Dragon it's almost ridiculous. I don't think it's a coincidence the TW is by far the clan mech I see most of. And frankly I'd be surprised if it won't be the first one being hit by the nerfhammer.

[Bishop Steiner]

I've already demonstrated that the TWolf is not particularly OP, yes. Speed is great, needs firepower for when it gets there. The relatively low weapon tonnage being exacerbated by the relative lack of effective use of PPFLD in the design, as tonnage constraints make it an indifferent ballistics platform, add the FLD it uses best PPCs either are restricted to the torso or removes the arm actuators, thus limiting your fire arc to the torso arc, anyhow, and largely negating any speed advantage.

Is it effective? Yes. Does it likely need SOME nerfs, well if you have actually read my posts, I have said as much. Though they are MINOR tweaks needed, not wholesale revisions.

Biggest one needed is in the S configuration, and extends to any mech mounting Omni-JJs, where they need to be less effective, be it through quirks, nerfs, whatever, than mechs with hardwired one. I'm sure it could use some other tweaks.

But to try to make it out to be some game breaking, indestructible chassis just rolling over everything in it's path is disingenuous, and patently false. Just as the "blatant OP superiority" of the Clans in general, is.

Torgun, on 22 June 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

The discussion we're having is about free weight on mechs, before you suddenly started to add what you'd consider balance. I've always been fond of faster Heavy mechs and ran lots with Dragons despite the overall weakness of it. And from all I've seen while spectating, fighting and looking up stats on clan weaponry, the TW is so much better than the Dragon it's almost ridiculous. I don't think it's a coincidence the TW is by far the clan mech I see most of. And frankly I'd be surprised if it won't be the first one being hit by the nerfhammer.

This whole thread is about balance. The only reason tonnage on mechs matter, is from a balance perspective.

I prefer faster mechs too. Doesn't mean everyone does, or that our preferences somehow guide balance.

[Duran Vancor]

I want to see this magical Orion build with more firepower than a Timberwolf.

-It will always be slower, Timberwolf always wins here.
-It will never have jumpjets, Timberwolf always wins here.
-It will always run hotter, Timberwolf always wins here.
-It will always be less survivable, either std and slow or xl and 1 side torso gone equals death.

Can it carry more weapons at least? Some people claim it can and I want to see that build. Best case scenario the Orion is worse than the Timverwolf, worst case it is "omghowcanyoubesobadthisisterrible" worse than the Timberwolf.

There are several Timberwolf builds the Orion can't even do, due to lack of tonnage, space or hardpoints. Is there even a single Orion build, the Timberwolf can not surpass? Just one?

(To make sure nobody here wastes their time, don't post an Orion with a 200xl engine.... that snail is embarrasing...)

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

This whole thread is about balance. The only reason tonnage on mechs matter, is from a balance perspective.

I prefer faster mechs too. Doesn't mean everyone does, or that our preferences somehow guide balance.

The "Innersphere mech can load x tons of weapons vs Clan mech can load y tons" argument always seems to ignore how Clan weapons are lighter across the board.

A LRM 40 mech loads 20 ton launchers for Innersphere and 10 tons for the Clans.

That is a 10 Ton difference! If weapons were balanced by tonnage, an Innersphere LRM 20 launcher would have to be as powerful as 2 Clan LRM 20s.

Are they really 100% better?

Edited by Duran Vancor, 22 June 2014 - 09:41 AM.

[Fang01]

Took my flame today. I think it was 3-4 kills and 900+ damage. In one try.

IS is clearly dead.

[Tombstoner]

Dakshinamurthy, on 22 June 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Are you seriously trying to argue that the timber wolf isn't op? I mean the rest of the clan mechs I think it's safe to hold back judgement on. The timber wolf is godly op, I think you are underestimating the advantage of 90kph and xl's that don't blow when you lose a torso. Just look at the dragon, it has all sorts of drawbacks to balance it for going so fast, and then notice how the TW has none of those drawbacks.

It's not any clan tech advantage it's the pour game play that exacerbates the situation. Its the one thing that's completely out of PGI's hands.

[IraqiWalker]

Satan n stuff, on 22 June 2014 - 03:27 AM, said:

There actually is a team test tube poptart, but it's no better, and arguably worse because ER PPCs, than the IS equivalent, the Cataphract 3D. Which reminds me, the list of clantech on sarna does include IS equivalent energy weapons with identical stats, I'm assuming this is Star League tech, shouldn't the clans have access to those?

They did, then modified them. The clans had access to IS MLs. 200 years earlier. They then improved on them, and we ended up with the ER-ML.

Dakshinamurthy, on 22 June 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Are you seriously trying to argue that the timber wolf isn't op? I mean the rest of the clan mechs I think it's safe to hold back judgement on. The timber wolf is godly op, I think you are underestimating the advantage of 90kph and xl's that don't blow when you lose a torso. Just look at the dragon, it has all sorts of drawbacks to balance it for going so fast, and then notice how the TW has none of those drawbacks.

Have you NOT used the T-Wolf. yeah, it can mount good weapon loadouts, and is mobile. However, your CT gets hit from the side, and possibly from behind. You have the biggest CT out there. Your arms can't shield you at all. So torso twisting doesn't work.

It's a good mech, but it's not OP. If it was, I wouldn't have killed it with a Kitfox. Or my Ember, or my Orion, or my other IS mechs.

Duran Vancor, on 22 June 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

I want to see this magical Orion build with more firepower than a Timberwolf.

-It will always be slower, Timberwolf always wins here.
-It will never have jumpjets, Timberwolf always wins here.
-It will always run hotter, Timberwolf always wins here.
-It will always be less survivable, either std and slow or xl and 1 side torso gone equals death.

Can it carry more weapons at least? Some people claim it can and I want to see that build. Best case scenario the Orion is worse than the Timverwolf, worst case it is "omghowcanyoubesobadthisisterrible" worse than the Timberwolf.

There are several Timberwolf builds the Orion can't even do, due to lack of tonnage, space or hardpoints. Is there even a single Orion build, the Timberwolf can not surpass? Just one?

(To make sure nobody here wastes their time, don't post an Orion with a 200xl engine.... that snail is embarrasing...)



The "Innersphere mech can load x tons of weapons vs Clan mech can load y tons" argument always seems to ignore how Clan weapons are lighter across the board.

A LRM 40 mech loads 20 ton launchers for Innersphere and 10 tons for the Clans.

That is a 10 Ton difference! If weapons were balanced by tonnage, an Innersphere LRM 20 launcher would have to be as powerful as 2 Clan LRM 20s.

Are they really 100% better?

Oh thank god, that clarifies things for me. You clearly don't have proper understanding of mech piloting.

Here. Let's compare the Trnchbucket and the Atlas using your system

-Atlas will never have JJs -TBT wins there
-Atlas will always run hotter - TBT wins there
-Atlas will always go slower - TBT wins there
-Atlas will always be less survivable (everyone focuses you down) - TBT wins there.

So I guess Trenchbuckets are OP and need a big nerf. That's why we see SO many of them all the time.

As for the Orion:

Here's a build that has netted me at least 2 clan kills a match over the past few days. Aside from a couple of times where I ran face first into a 6xUAC5 Daishi (which is only good at close range) where I had a 50/50 chance of getting killed, or circling around it fast enough to get the kill.

ON1-K Face wrecker By the way. This mech has been dropping clan mechs without any elites. It's the only variant that I have right now

Any build the Orion runs with any AC immediately surpasses a T-Wolf build with ACs of the same caliber.

Any build the Orion runs with LRMs (like the VA with 2xLRM 15 2xLRM10) beats the T-Wolf's LRM build.

Also, for the record, despite being heavier than Clan LRMs, IS LRMs are far superior, simply because of the burst fire mode. Unlike the stream fire mode of clans which makes a single LCT-3M with 2xAMS nullify most LRM boats. The firestarter champion can destroy clan LRM boats.

[Wintersdark]

As someone who tried running an lrm70 clan build (warhawk, mind you) I gave up on it because Clan LRM's are just that bad. As soon as there are 2+ AMS in range, even with clear LOS to your target very few missiles are landing. God help you if there's a Kit Fox on the opposing team, then you're just done simply because he's there.

IS burst volleys from, say, an H stalker are _vastly_ more effective.

[Duran Vancor]

IraqiWalker, on 23 June 2014 - 01:37 AM, said:

ON1-K Face wrecker By the way. This mech has been dropping clan mechs without any elites. It's the only variant that I have right now

Any build the Orion runs with any AC immediately surpasses a T-Wolf build with ACs of the same caliber.

Any build the Orion runs with LRMs (like the VA with 2xLRM 15 2xLRM10) beats the T-Wolf's LRM build.

Also, for the record, despite being heavier than Clan LRMs, IS LRMs are far superior, simply because of the burst fire mode. Unlike the stream fire mode of clans which makes a single LCT-3M with 2xAMS nullify most LRM boats. The firestarter champion can destroy clan LRM boats.

That's supposed to be the magical Orion build that demonstrates it's superiority? Oh well, I'll play along.

TBR-S

Your build copied onto a Timberwolf. Since it can't have AMS I upgraded the SRM4 to SRM6 and added 1 ton of ammo. Let's compare them.

Orion advantages:

-AMS
-AC20 with FLPP damage

Timberwolf advantages:

-Jumpjets
-17.8 kph faster
-Medium lasers with longer range and more damage
-SRM6 over SRM4
-AC20 with longer range and double tap
-4 more double heatsinks (cooler even though more weapons)

Those are the factual advantages of those two. We don't need to get started with hitboxes, since you will say the Orion has better ones and I will disagree.

Call me crazy, but I am not convinced. That Orion is not better. I can't even accept calling them equal. An AMS and a different working AC20 with it's own pro (FLPPD) and cons (no double tap, less range) don't even make up the jumpjet. Let's just ignore all the other Timberwolf advantages (*cough* 72 alpha vs 57.2 *cough*)

The LRM argument is interesting. I am sure your LRM 50 Orion faaaaaaar surpasses this unoptimized quickly put together LRM 70

TBR-S

If you want to never run out of missiles, just downgrade to a LRM 60 with more ammo and it still makes the Orion look "alright".

No magical Orion build to be found yet

Edited by Duran Vancor, 23 June 2014 - 03:31 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Duran Vancor, on 23 June 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

That's supposed to be the magical Orion build that demonstrates it's superiority? Oh well, I'll play along.

TBR-S

Your build copied onto a Timberwolf. Since it can't have AMS I upgraded the SRM4 to SRM6 and added 1 ton of ammo. Let's compare them.

Orion advantages:

-AMS
-AC20 with FLPP damage

Timberwolf advantages:

-Jumpjets
-17.8 kph faster
-Medium lasers with longer range and more damage
-SRM6 over SRM4
-AC20 with longer range and double tap
-4 more double heatsinks (cooler even though more weapons)

Those are the factual advantages of those two. We don't need to get started with hitboxes, since you will say the Orion has better ones and I will disagree.

Call me crazy, but I am not convinced. That Orion is not better. I can't even accept calling them equal. An AMS and a different working AC20 with it's own pro (FLPPD) and cons (no double tap, less range) don't even make up the jumpjet. Let's just ignore all the other Timberwolf advantages (*cough* 72 alpha vs 57.2 *cough*)

The LRM argument is interesting. I am sure your LRM 50 Orion faaaaaaar surpasses this unoptimized quickly put together LRM 70

TBR-S

If you want to never run out of missiles, just downgrade to a LRM 60 and it still makes the Orion look "alright".

No magical Orion build to be found yet

When was the last time you played the game? I'm reading your posts, but it's as if they are written by someone who hasn't played the game. That AC20 on the Wolf, won't deal 10 damage to the same location, let alone it's possibility to jam for a whole 5-7 seconds (possibly more if it double jams before unjamming in the first place). The range on the lasers doesn't mean anything, because the whole point of the build is to sneak up on people. If I wanted to poke at people from a distance, I wouldn't run AC20s, and SRMs.

You like looking at numbers, but you fail at understanding the purpose of the equipment, or how it is utilized properly.

Also, the AMS not being mounted is a huge detriment. All it takes is one spotter and your mech is dead before dealing any damage. Long range lasers or not.

That T-Wolf LRM build you posted is still inferior to most IS LRMs simply due to stream fire. Let alone the massive ghost heat penalty you're getting from firing these launchers

Even this ON1-VA Basic LRM boat will destroy that T-Wolf any day of the week. Simply because stream fire is THAT weak.

The only clear advantage the T-Wolf has is the JJs. The extra speed isn't that much of a difference, and you still don't seem to realize how big of an equalizer the fact that I can put a smaller engine in there.

Also, this is no magic build. It's a tried and tested build that has been extremely effective against clan mechs, simply because I can alpha right into their face, and twist immediately, while they have to take the full brunt of my attack, as I spread all their damage across multiple sections of my mech.

It's not that I don't understand your point. You're just looking at a corner of the puzzle, and not seeing the rest of the board.

Wintersdark, on 23 June 2014 - 03:19 AM, said:

As someone who tried running an lrm70 clan build (warhawk, mind you) I gave up on it because Clan LRM's are just that bad. As soon as there are 2+ AMS in range, even with clear LOS to your target very few missiles are landing. God help you if there's a Kit Fox on the opposing team, then you're just done simply because he's there.

IS burst volleys from, say, an H stalker are _vastly_ more effective.

Ran a drop with 2 Kitfoxes with 3AMS on them. We just stayed near the main formation, and unless it was lots of IS LRM boats, no missiles hit our team.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 June 2014 - 03:41 AM.

[Duran Vancor]

IraqiWalker, on 23 June 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

When was the last time you played the game? I'm reading your posts, but it's as if they are written by someone who hasn't played the game. That AC20 on the Wolf, won't deal 10 damage to the same location, let alone it's possibility to jam for a whole 5-7 seconds (possibly more if it double jams before unjamming in the first place). The range on the lasers doesn't mean anything, because the whole point of the build is to sneak up on people. If I wanted to poke at people from a distance, I wouldn't run AC20s, and SRMs.

You like looking at numbers, but you fail at understanding the purpose of the equipment, or how it is utilized properly.

Also, the AMS not being mounted is a huge detriment. All it takes is one spotter and your mech is dead before dealing any damage. Long range lasers or not.

That T-Wolf LRM build you posted is still inferior to most IS LRMs simply due to stream fire. Let alone the massive ghost heat penalty you're getting from firing these launchers

Even this ON1-VA Basic LRM boat will destroy that T-Wolf any day of the week. Simply because stream fire is THAT weak.

The only clear advantage the T-Wolf has is the JJs. The extra speed isn't that much of a difference, and you still don't seem to realize how big of an equalizer the fact that I can put a smaller engine in there.

Also, this is no magic build. It's a tried and tested build that has been extremely effective against clan mechs, simply because I can alpha right into their face, and twist immediately, while they have to take the full brunt of my attack, as I spread all their damage across multiple sections of my mech.

It's not that I don't understand your point. You're just looking at a corner of the puzzle, and not seeing the rest of the board.

Most of your post consists of telling me how terrible I am at the game while oozing with hyperbole. I am not a competitive player, but please get your hands on one and tell them how weapon ranges or mech speed are irrelevant...

A laser with 450 meter range over 270 meter is not suddenly less effective when you are close to the enemy. But you never ever are further than 270 meter from the enemy, right? You have a special spawn next to the target you want to brawl with. How fortunate, considering your mech has an effective range of 270.

The next part might be the peak of your hyperbole.

IraqiWalker, on 23 June 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

Also, the AMS not being mounted is a huge detriment. All it takes is one spotter and your mech is dead before dealing any damage. Long range lasers or not.

So when the (faster) mech gets spotted it will die before being able to do anything, yet a single AMS on a (slower) mech doing the same mistake means it will live? Am I understanding you correctly? Please tell me you see how much nonsense that is. AMS is fine, even better against Clan LRMS, we agree on that. That quote above though...

[Bishop Steiner]

IraqiWalker, on 23 June 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

When was the last time you played the game? I'm reading your posts, but it's as if they are written by someone who hasn't played the game. That AC20 on the Wolf, won't deal 10 damage to the same location, let alone it's possibility to jam for a whole 5-7 seconds (possibly more if it double jams before unjamming in the first place). The range on the lasers doesn't mean anything, because the whole point of the build is to sneak up on people. If I wanted to poke at people from a distance, I wouldn't run AC20s, and SRMs.

You like looking at numbers, but you fail at understanding the purpose of the equipment, or how it is utilized properly.

Also, the AMS not being mounted is a huge detriment. All it takes is one spotter and your mech is dead before dealing any damage. Long range lasers or not.

That T-Wolf LRM build you posted is still inferior to most IS LRMs simply due to stream fire. Let alone the massive ghost heat penalty you're getting from firing these launchers

Even this ON1-VA Basic LRM boat will destroy that T-Wolf any day of the week. Simply because stream fire is THAT weak.

The only clear advantage the T-Wolf has is the JJs. The extra speed isn't that much of a difference, and you still don't seem to realize how big of an equalizer the fact that I can put a smaller engine in there.

Also, this is no magic build. It's a tried and tested build that has been extremely effective against clan mechs, simply because I can alpha right into their face, and twist immediately, while they have to take the full brunt of my attack, as I spread all their damage across multiple sections of my mech.

It's not that I don't understand your point. You're just looking at a corner of the puzzle, and not seeing the rest of the board.



Ran a drop with 2 Kitfoxes with 3AMS on them. We just stayed near the main formation, and unless it was lots of IS LRM boats, no missiles hit our team.

Meh.

Can't reason with the unreasonable. Dude refuses to comprehend the advantage of PP-FLD. Can't comprehend hitboxes. Can't comprehend firing arc limitations. His posts smack of pure "SmurfyWarrior", where all that matters is that golden damage number, and whoever has the highest, wins. He can't comprehend how the paper advantages often mean nothing, because we are not fighting on a flat plain, with no cover, where the Clan Range Advantage might become OP. That even the most open of maps, Alpine, has plenty of cover and concealment to flat out nullify the Clan Range advantage with.

Fact is, I run my SuckerPunch or Crit-Bomb or il Fianchetto all day, which are hardly "optimal" builds, against the current IS Meta, and wreck with them. And since the Invasion has begun, still run those same 3 mechs, and have not missed a beat, and in fact, my KDr has improved in all 3.

Or, I could be like him, and be the self fulfilling prophecy in my OP, and stand out in the open, puckered up and impotent, and die a lot. And blame anything but myself. Of course, we heard, oddly enough, this same exact whinging, when the Phoenix Packs were released, and they didn't even feature any new tech. So what does it REALLY boil down to?

Well, the first thing, as mentioned, is too many people suck at the game, and can't accept that. But on top of that, we have the entitled, butthurt generation of the spoiled wimp, who feel that they should have access to everything, instantly, for free, and everyone else should pay their way anyhow. And apparently, in their heads, if they could just get that Phoenix Mech, or that Clan Mech, that unfair advantage being wrongly withheld from them, then magically, they wouldn't suck anymore.

These folks will be butthurt and whining, no matter what. So why waste time trying to reason with them?

He is either a troll, or just plain thick, which is why I finally added him to the ignore list.

[IraqiWalker]

Duran Vancor, on 23 June 2014 - 04:04 AM, said:

Most of your post consists of telling me how terrible I am at the game while oozing with hyperbole. I am not a competitive player, but please get your hands on one and tell them how weapon ranges or mech speed are irrelevant...

A laser with 450 meter range over 270 meter is not suddenly less effective when you are close to the enemy. But you never ever are further than 270 meter from the enemy, right? You have a special spawn next to the target you want to brawl with. How fortunate, considering your mech has an effective range of 270.

What I'm saying isn't that you suck at the game, but your understanding of the fundamentals is very flawed. I'm not a competitive player, I don't like the competitive scene. However, next time you run into a competitive player (a real competitive player, not someone who wants to be competitive and just mimics the meta blindly), ask them if they'd rather take a clan mech or an IS mech in a poptart fest. I can tell you the answer right now: Dragon Slayer and Cataphract 3D will win.

Weapon ranges aren't irrelevant by their very nature. They are irrelevant in the context of our argument. You wanted the Orion build. I gave you the Orion build. Along with why it's still better than any T-Wolf out there that tries to match it. Speed is good, however, once you are in a brawl within 400 meters of each other, speed becomes less important, especially since the T-Wolf can't use it to torso twist and spread damage, even with that big engine.

Duran Vancor, on 23 June 2014 - 04:04 AM, said:

The next part might be the peak of your hyperbole.



So when the (faster) mech gets spotted it will die before being able to do anything, yet a single AMS on a (slower) mech doing the same mistake means it will live? Am I understanding you correctly? Please tell me you see how much nonsense that is. AMS is fine, even better against Clan LRMS, we agree on that. That quote above though...

In this scenario, we will assume that it's open terrain with no cover, and both mechs get spotted by a light mech spotter.
The T-Wolf will always die first regardless of whether it was targeted by a clan LRM 60, or IS LRM 60. Simply because AMS will mitigate damage. There is no way that the mech without AMS will live longer.

With the existence of cover, it becomes close enough to almost be a coin flip though. As the faster mech might be able to dodge a salvo, while the slower mech uses AMS to mitigate the damage regardless. Yet as the spotter is still there, you're gonna want the AMS since that will guarantee damage mitigation while no AMS means if cover is inadequate. You're done for.

No matter how you look at it. If both mechs are subjected to 10 seconds of continuous fire from LRM 60. The T-Wolf will recieve the greater damage, and most likely will be cored in it's CT, as that thing is just too huge.

[Wintersdark]

Weapon ranges are not important at all in a sniper/poptart fight.

At least half of our maps are simply too small for the range to matter at all in the first place, and of those maps that are larger, we've got medium maps - HPG, Caustic, Canyons, in which engagement ranges are moderate anyways, and the large maps:

Alpine: Range can definitely be advantageous here, as this map has the least cover - though it IS still present. Regular IS PPC/AC5 range is just fine here.
Tourmaline: There's tons of cover, it's trivial to get into whatever range you need safely.
Terra Therma: It's very hard to find places where extreme range is much of any advantage at all.

So, the clan range advantage is most noticable for their brawlers/skirmishers, who can deal full damage at longer ranges than their IS counterparts and actually utilize that on almost any maps. However, at the higher end of play, poptarts/snipers simply dominate. There's practically no other weapons at all.

For poptarts and snipers, the range advantage is largely negated. The AC5/PPC's range band is sufficiently large as to be Good Enough for almost all situations.

[Willard Phule]

I love how this thread, much like every other thread, has gone completely off course.

Yes, we get it. There are any number of configurations that'll make an IS mech competitive with Omnis....blah blah blah.

The OP is right about one thing.....all the Clantech IS overpowered if you haven't even mastered the basics of mech piloting. If you are completely unable to shoot without standing still and zooming in, then find yourself unable to zoom back out so you can move....odds are fairly good that even IS machineguns are OP as far as you're concerned.

If you're unable to lock targets to let your team know where the enemy is, odds are fairly good that everything in this game...Clan or otherwise....is going to be OP for you.

It's really a shame that there's no separation of players based on their skill level. Sure, evening matches by tonnage would be nice too, but what we REALLY need is to have some separation of players based on their experience. And don't give me this Elo nonsense....we all know it's broken and needs to be rewritten from the ground up.

Right now, all the "new players" are whining that this is OP or that needs to be nerfed or whatever. Nonsense. What needs to happen is some kind of "basic training" sort of tutorial that all new players are REQUIRED to pass prior to being allowed to play live. REQUIRED, not "voluntary." Until you can prove that you know where your move buttons are located, how to operate the zoom/unzoom function and lock targets....you shouldn't be allowed to play with the big boys.

[CygnusX7]

Mentioned this in another thread but the same applies.
Too many hero's get in waaay too deep waaay too soon... and then cry bad team... and/or because clanmechs.