215 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 June 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

If you do all these things, have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time, and regularly stare into the sun, you will indeed find Clan Tech OP.

+1

This made me chuckle

[Mercules]

Duran Vancor, on 23 June 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

Orion advantages:

-AMS
-AC20 with FLPP damage

You forgot, "All Lasers are arm mounted allowing them to track better and do pinpoint damage instead of scatter their hit locations."


If that Timberwolf you posted loses it's left arm it is in serious trouble too, which eliminates your ability to twist away from the damage by a small but not insignificant amount.

[Fang01]

Correction, 2 kills.

[Gallowglas]

I think the only real legitimate gripe is when a Clan mech is able to equip so many weapons that the DoT versus pinpoint is largely mitigated by the overall firepower. After all, 100 points over 2 seconds still trumps or at least matches 30 point pinpoint, even with partial burn time. As such, I think the major mech that stands out because of the massively reduced TTK that it introduces is the Dire Wolf. Mind you, that's largely anecdotal. Obviously the Dire Wolf is also a lumbering turtle and has a torso that you could hit while blindfolded. I don't know how well that balance point works and I don't think we *will* know until we're dropping pure IS versus Clan.

As for the other mechs, they're certainly nice for various reasons, but I've not suddenly massively improved my gameplay running either the Timber Wolf or the Nova. Have I had a few banner rounds? Sure. However, in the grand scheme of things, my stats are massively better in my Misery or my K2. Again, anecdotal to be sure, but I doubt my experience is unique.

Edited by Gallowglas, 23 June 2014 - 08:23 AM.

[Demuder]

Torgun, on 21 June 2014 - 11:39 PM, said:

If you want to do a fair comparison of how much free weight respective mechs have, the only fair way to do it is with engines that let them run at the same speed. Anything else is not a direct comparison, since the TBR can't change engines. My point is if you don't want to run a fast and agile 75 tonner, but want to go around 70 kph and carry more weapons instead, don't run the TBR. Anyone running IS mechs that want to run with a fast Heavy like the TBR, will have less tonnage for weapons than TBR. And once again, clan weapons weigh less too.

So your idea of balanced comparison is what? A 360 rate engine Orion (that noone is ever going to use because noone needs such an engine in an Orion) that is on par with a Timberwolf ? And that specific Orion should be able to mount the exact same firepower with the Timberwolf in order for them to be "balanced"? If that's what you want, what exactly are you going to compare to determine balance ? Design art and hitboxes?

Mechs do not need to carry the same weapons at the same speeds in order to be balanced. In my personal view, the Timberwolf is an excellent mech, the ability to carry an S torso makes it even more... excellent, but the 3D is also an excellent mech and so is the Orion. You just use them differently. The maneuverability on the TBR makes me play in a different way that the sheer face wrecking power of an AC/20 ON1-K does.

[Torgun]

Demuder, on 23 June 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

So your idea of balanced comparison is what? A 360 rate engine Orion (that noone is ever going to use because noone needs such an engine in an Orion) that is on par with a Timberwolf ? And that specific Orion should be able to mount the exact same firepower with the Timberwolf in order for them to be "balanced"? If that's what you want, what exactly are you going to compare to determine balance ? Design art and hitboxes?

Mechs do not need to carry the same weapons at the same speeds in order to be balanced. In my personal view, the Timberwolf is an excellent mech, the ability to carry an S torso makes it even more... excellent, but the 3D is also an excellent mech and so is the Orion. You just use them differently. The maneuverability on the TBR makes me play in a different way that the sheer face wrecking power of an AC/20 ON1-K does.

You're pretty late to the party and missed the vital part that I'm comparing the aspect of free tonnage for weapons, and that's where the TW AFAIK will have more free tonnage over when compared to any IS mech running at the same speed. I never ever mentioned it would solely decide the factor of overall balance, so there's really no argument here since you're arguing about something I didn't say.

Edited by Torgun, 23 June 2014 - 11:04 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 June 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Yes indeed.

I had to sit there and really examine the issue. Why do some players facing the Clans not have any particular issue with them, yet others, just absolutely get their panties puckered and cry "OP! OP!"?

Then I had an epiphany. The Majority of Clan Weapons are Damage Over Time. Given a chance to unleash their full power, they do tend to have a Higher DPS, and also a potentially higher Alpha Potential.

Mind you, good players seldom worry about DPS, but this led me to the answer.


IF........... you insist on standing out in the open, especially in big, slow mechs, and doubly especially without the benefit of ECM or massed AMS....... Clan Tech is OP.

IF........... you regularly get into staring matches with your opponent....... Clan Tech is OP.

IF........... you cannot reliably put the majority of your return fire into one section of your opponent..... especially when it's staring back at you....... Clan Tech is OP.

If you do all these things, have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time, and regularly stare into the sun, you will indeed find Clan Tech OP.

I found a Picture of a friend of yours!

[Bishop Steiner]

Gallowglas, on 23 June 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

I think the only real legitimate gripe is when a Clan mech is able to equip so many weapons that the DoT versus pinpoint is largely mitigated by the overall firepower. After all, 100 points over 2 seconds still trumps or at least matches 30 point pinpoint, even with partial burn time. As such, I think the major mech that stands out because of the massively reduced TTK that it introduces is the Dire Wolf. Mind you, that's largely anecdotal. Obviously the Dire Wolf is also a lumbering turtle and has a torso that you could hit while blindfolded. I don't know how well that balance point works and I don't think we *will* know until we're dropping pure IS versus Clan.

As for the other mechs, they're certainly nice for various reasons, but I've not suddenly massively improved my gameplay running either the Timber Wolf or the Nova. Have I had a few banner rounds? Sure. However, in the grand scheme of things, my stats are massively better in my Misery or my K2. Again, anecdotal to be sure, but I doubt my experience is unique.

you realize the only mech realistically able to do that, is the DireWolf, yes? And it moves like a beached whale, specifically to balance it's insane firepower.

[IraqiWalker]

Torgun, on 23 June 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

You're pretty late to the party and missed the vital part that I'm comparing the aspect of free tonnage for weapons, and that's where the TW AFAIK will have more free tonnage over when compared to any IS mech running at the same speed. I never ever mentioned it would solely decide the factor of overall balance, so there's really no argument here since you're arguing about something I didn't say.

THAT is where the main flaw in your analysis has been. No one NEEDS to run at that speed, I can choose to run an even slower Orion, with a STD 250, and pack even more firepower, and ammo, and still have max armor.

The T-Wolf will still have to move with that engine, can't downgrade it, will pack some decent firepower, but my AC 20 will still win the duels. Since I can choose to either rip a limb off (like the one with the UAC 20), or just crush the CT/cockpit. I already got a headshot kill on a T-Wolf with a dual gauss set up. An AC 20 hit at close range can be done, and I would still have enough time to twist and maybe, if the stars align, the Twolf would destroy or severely damage my arm.

You're trying to compare two different mechs, on ONE specific aspect. While ignoring everything else, THAT is cherry picking. You've already seen how flawed and skewed it can be when I used your own system to show that the trenchbucket (Trebuchet) is super OP compared to the Atlas, and needs a nerf.

That wasn't done in mockery, it was done to show how flawed that methodology can be, and how inaccurate it is.

[Gallowglas]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 June 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

you realize the only mech realistically able to do that, is the DireWolf, yes? And it moves like a beached whale, specifically to balance it's insane firepower.

Yep, that's why I mentioned that specifically.

[Alexii]

So Clans get to stand in the open , stare down opponent , and IS has to be smart and hide in the corners like chuchundra and you call that balance ? Ok =) I dont mind personally since its kinda in line with BT universe and ,as it stands, both teams get clan mech participants. But ppl like you are funny. Like all them SPAS 12 with frag rounds defenders in BF3.

Edited by Alexii, 23 June 2014 - 06:03 PM.

[Mercules]

Alexii, on 23 June 2014 - 05:58 PM, said:

So Clans get to stand in the open , stare down opponent , and IS has to be smart and hide in the corners like chuchundra and you call that balance ? Ok =) I dont mind personally since its kinda in line with BT universe and ,as it stands, both teams get clan mech participants. But ppl like you are funny. Like all them SPAS 12 with frag rounds defenders in BF3.

The Clans would be somewhat stupid to stand in the open and stare down opponents because an IS lance with front loaded damage will pop out of cover, blast, and drop back into cover.... which is basically Meta right now so everyone is set up to deal with people who want to stand in the open.


What people are saying is that if you play to the strength of the "overpowered" mechs they are certainly going to seem overpowered. Going toe to toe and face hugging a mech that has more DPS but less burst damage is playing to their hand. Hitting and fade plays into the hand of the burst damage mechs that IS can build very well.

[IraqiWalker]

Alexii, on 23 June 2014 - 05:58 PM, said:

So Clans get to stand in the open , stare down opponent , and IS has to be smart and hide in the corners like chuchundra and you call that balance ? Ok =) I dont mind personally since its kinda in line with BT universe and ,as it stands, both teams get clan mech participants. But ppl like you are funny. Like all them SPAS 12 with frag rounds defenders in BF3.

You really missed the point there. If clans stand in the open, they will on average die faster than an IS mech. First and foremost because of the hitboxes. What we're saying is that both teams need to play smart to win. If you (general player, not "you" specifically) don't, you lose, and it's your fault, not the mech's or the equipment, since as it stands, they are both balanced. Yes, there is some tweaking to be done, but nothing is OP.


I dare you to find one clan mech that can stand in the open and survive for more than 10 seconds after being spotted. Even a Daishi with max armor, will still crumble and die. I should know. I've killed and piloted that mech plenty of times by now since the PTS. My Orion has had more kills recently because of all these T-Wolf pilots that get over-confident and brawl with me, only to be greeted by a House Davion approved AC 20. They do try to focus my Ballistic spot (the smart ones do, at least), however, in the end, that burst shot wins.

IS mechs can build burst damage builds far better than any clan mech can hope to dream of. However, plenty of people don't seem to utilize that. You're not supposed to stand there an slug it out with them. you're supposed to hit them, and disappear. They can put lots of damage downrange IF you let them, or you could unload your full salvo on them, and then twist away and watch them waste a third or so of their potential damage into the rocks behind you.

[Storm Khan]

Papaspud, on 21 June 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

I have already noticed that lights and mediums are disappearing from the battlefield, they just can't absorb the damage the clan mechs can dish out.

I drive lights alot and still do after the introduction of Clan tech. The first thing I did when Clanner came along was test out my Raven against them. I had and still do maintain a KDR of 4.75 with my Raven even after Clan mechs came on the scene. Sure they bring differences to the game but you can adjust to them and still be just as effective as you were before.

I also drive Kit Foxes which are pretty slow compared to IS lights and even mediums. Again, you can remain competitive by learning the strengths of the mech and take advantage of those while trying to mitigate the weaknesses. In the case of the KFox, don't run off solo, stay with the main group, you can't run fast enough and use the longer range clan weps to poke from greater distances, for examples.

Lights are still viable, just learn and adapt your play style around the new tech.

[Torgun]

IraqiWalker, on 23 June 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

THAT is where the main flaw in your analysis has been. No one NEEDS to run at that speed, I can choose to run an even slower Orion, with a STD 250, and pack even more firepower, and ammo, and still have max armor.

The T-Wolf will still have to move with that engine, can't downgrade it, will pack some decent firepower, but my AC 20 will still win the duels. Since I can choose to either rip a limb off (like the one with the UAC 20), or just crush the CT/cockpit. I already got a headshot kill on a T-Wolf with a dual gauss set up. An AC 20 hit at close range can be done, and I would still have enough time to twist and maybe, if the stars align, the Twolf would destroy or severely damage my arm.

You're trying to compare two different mechs, on ONE specific aspect. While ignoring everything else, THAT is cherry picking. You've already seen how flawed and skewed it can be when I used your own system to show that the trenchbucket (Trebuchet) is super OP compared to the Atlas, and needs a nerf.

That wasn't done in mockery, it was done to show how flawed that methodology can be, and how inaccurate it is.

The comparison might not be useful to you since you seem to like to run slow heavies, but for me that used to have fun with the Dragon despite all its' faults, the Timberwolf is at least 2x the mech the Dragon is since it runs close to the speed I did the Dragon in my favorite setup, but the TW can bring about 2x the firepower and even have JJs.

Pointing out a certain advantage of a mech over another is not cherrypicking. Pointing out a single advantage and then claim that proves one mech is better than another, that is cherrypicking. I did the first, I never did the latter, except for my comment above that the TW is a lot better than the Dragon. If you want to argue for the opposite of that claim you're more than welcome.

Edited by Torgun, 23 June 2014 - 10:40 PM.

[Dunning Kruger Effect]

I love how people use random personal or one-off examples to justify their points.

"I die all the time in my Timberwolf, therefore it cannot be OP"

"I did 900 damage in an IS Mech today, therefore IS frontloaded damage is superior"

"I kill clan mechs all the time. Therefore they are balanced."

[MustrumRidcully]

So do you think it's irrelevant whether you're out in the open against Clan mechs or against IS mechs, you will die just as fast.

[Wintersdark]

Torgun, on 23 June 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

The comparison might not be useful to you since you seem to like to run slow heavies, but for me that used to have fun with the Dragon despite all its' faults, the Timberwolf is at least 2x the mech the Dragon is since it runs close to the speed I did the Dragon in my favorite setup, but the TW can bring about 2x the firepower and even have JJs.

Pointing out a certain advantage of a mech over another is not cherrypicking. Pointing out a single advantage and then claim that proves one mech is better than another, that is cherrypicking. I did the first, I never did the latter, except for my comment above that the TW is a lot better than the Dragon. If you want to argue for the opposite of that claim you're more than welcome.

That's hardly a fair comparison. I love Dragons, but they're ... Err, not competitive mechs. They're pretty much the worst IS heavies, so yeah - I'd expect a 75 ton clan mech to mop the floor with one.

[Torgun]

Wintersdark, on 24 June 2014 - 12:56 AM, said:

That's hardly a fair comparison. I love Dragons, but they're ... Err, not competitive mechs. They're pretty much the worst IS heavies, so yeah - I'd expect a 75 ton clan mech to mop the floor with one.

If it's not a fair comparison, that's because the devs failed when they designed, much like the Awesome is for the assault class. But when matchmaking does its' thing with 3/3/3/3, the Dragon will be considered the same as an TW since they're both in the heavy class, now that is most certainly not fair in any way. But still there is no way to make a fast IS heavy that can equip the same amount of weapons the TW does and still move at similar speed, since the combination of clan engine+mech structure let it save several tons of weight. And on top of that, most of the clan weapons weigh less too.

[IraqiWalker]

Torgun, on 23 June 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

The comparison might not be useful to you since you seem to like to run slow heavies, but for me that used to have fun with the Dragon despite all its' faults, the Timberwolf is at least 2x the mech the Dragon is since it runs close to the speed I did the Dragon in my favorite setup, but the TW can bring about 2x the firepower and even have JJs.

Pointing out a certain advantage of a mech over another is not cherrypicking. Pointing out a single advantage and then claim that proves one mech is better than another, that is cherrypicking. I did the first, I never did the latter, except for my comment above that the TW is a lot better than the Dragon. If you want to argue for the opposite of that claim you're more than welcome.

Cherry picking is all you've done. You've been focusing on one or two aspects of the T-Wolf and calling it -and by proxy all clan tech- OP.

You have been focusing on it's speed, and it's weapon tonnage, and whichever mech you compared to it, you compared based ONLY on those two aspects.

You want to talk about the Dragon versus the T-Wolf. How about the Dragon versus the Jagermech? Why not that?

If we're piloting all heavies the same way, then yeah, the dragon is at a disadvantage against ALL OTHER HEAVIES.

If you pilot the dragon right. I highly doubt a T-Wolf will compete with it in a hit and run style play. Which is where the Dragon excels. A T-Wolf can't do hit and run, like the Dragon. I'll say that right now.

Simply because all T-Wolf weapons are DoT weapons. Unless you load it with Gauss and PPCs, and run it specifically like a Dragon. Then, the T-Wolf might have the advantage.

Dunning Kruger Effect, on 23 June 2014 - 11:13 PM, said:

I love how people use random personal or one-off examples to justify their points.

"I die all the time in my Timberwolf, therefore it cannot be OP"

"I did 900 damage in an IS Mech today, therefore IS frontloaded damage is superior"

"I kill clan mechs all the time. Therefore they are balanced."

It's called Anecdotal evidence. Used a lot to help illustrate points. Not considered empirical, but used to support or disprove certain outrageous arguments. Such as "Clans are OP, IS is obsolete".

Learning to pilot each mech for it's advantages is how you get them to stand out. It's also how you get their full potential. Slapping a Dragon infront of any other heavy is gonna be disadvantageous for it. You're supposed to be seen as little as possible by the enemy as you do drive-bys on them.

In a stand up fight. The Dragon will always lose to the T-Wolf. However, in a proper 12 v 12. That Dragon is going to be the one doing the flanking, while the T-Wolf will be donig the front line combat.

Understand the mech's role, not just what it can mount, and you can see why both mechs are still balanced in their own way.