215 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Thorqemada, on 21 June 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Or you put 2x Gauss + 2x ERPPC (+ 2x LRM10 optional) on your Clan Mech and be as OP as possible...

Yes. Your DireWolf can do that. And if you stay right in front of it.... it hurts. A lot.

Of course, since the Dire Wolf makes the Banshee look like a ballerina, I might suggest....NOT standing in front of it?
(Hint: I'm playing this same game, and have never been cored out by the fabled PepsiGauss Direwhale.)

Grey Black, on 21 June 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

To the OP:
What is done is the differentiation of Clan versus Inner Sphere. Where the Inner Sphere is better at hit/run tactics (see all of the Raven 3Ls running around lately), the Clans feel much more like stand-up fighters. The Clan weapons very much feel, to me, like they were designed by people who stand around in open fields shooting each other with very little cover around, hence increased damage at the expense of time. Comparatively, the Inner Sphere is very much focused on _not_ losing your mech, so fire off a quick shot and git. Sure, the tech may not deal the same massive damage, but you can survive longer by not showing yourself very long, lending to guerilla tactics (e.g. poptarting).

HOWEVER, I do feel that the pay mechanics should also reflect Clan culture (i.e. not just Trial focused weapons). I feel that Clan mechs need to be paid on a different scale; instead of focusing on damage, it should be efficiency (kills:damage ratio, for example), and encourage solo tactics rather than wolf-packing. That, in and of itself, will be a HUGE nerf to Clan tech. If people aren't getting paid well in their Timber Wolves, perhaps they'll change their tactics so they do start making money.

I would certainly not mind seeing some differentiation this way. I'm trying to understand what Clanner need CBills for.......

[Torgun]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 June 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

is that extra worth 20% more heat per gun? especially as it multiplies per gun? (Also since ALL Clan Laser get Ghost Heat). As I said, they are not perfectly balanced, but they are hardly massively OP, either. And if they were to bring the Medium Laser where ti should be, it would be a noticeable balance trade off, more range, potentially more damage, or substantially less heat.

A big part of what so many people crying about Clan Tech miss...is the big picture and how it all fits together.


And also seldom have great hitboxes.

Isn't the Small/small pulse lasers the only ones without ghost heat? For me that really makes no difference, I'm not much for bringing a knife to a gun fight. 270m range with SRMs are short enough. Well at least we can agree there is an edge right now when it comes to the medium laser class, when I saw the specs the first time I couldn't believe how anyone would not see the clear advantage here. And if you stick them on a versatile mech like timberwolves that have both speed and can carry a fair deal of weapons, the difference is further apparent.

[CaptainDeez]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 June 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

you really need to try harder, and be a little more original if you want to be a Flaming Locky Award finalist!

C'mon big guy! Give it a whirl! Or is this thread too OP for you to handle like the game is, apparently?

Nah, I think I'm going to leave you guys to do your thing.

[Bishop Steiner]

Duran Vancor, on 21 June 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Awesomes, Orions, Dragons and Hunchbacks have been ruling the meta for far too long. 9 medium lasers on the Hunchback are ridiculous. The Nova with his 12 mediums, 4 machine guns and jumpjets can barely keep up with that beastly Innersphere medium every competitive team brings 100% of the time.

Those overpowered mechs finally have some competition with the perfectly balanced Timberwolf or Summoner.

You obviously have driven neither if you think them perfectly balanced.

But bravo using Inner Sphere mechs that are the laughing stock against OTHER Inner Sphere mechs to try (and fail, miserably) to make a point.

This is too fun.

[Thunder Child]

Thorqemada, on 21 June 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Or you put 2x Gauss + 2x ERPPC (+ 2x LRM10 optional) on your Clan Mech and be as OP as possible...

Yep, but that involves people NOT using all 42 Ballistic / Energy Hard Points on their "Superior" Chassis. And to be fair, this is the only instance I can think of where Clan Tech is OP. I saw a Quad Gauss Daishi one match, which was also nasty, but the 2x PPC 2x Gauss has much more instant Damage Potential. Fortunately, the Chassis that can mount it has the same nimbleness as a Blue Whale. LBX Heavy chassis can do some nasty sandpapering as well, but anything running UACs or Lasers needs time on target to do so.

[Bishop Steiner]

CaptainDeez, on 21 June 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

Nah, I think I'm going to leave you guys to do your thing.

believe it when I see it, big fella!

Thunder Child, on 21 June 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

Yep, but that involves people NOT using all 42 Ballistic / Energy Hard Points on their "Superior" Chassis. And to be fair, this is the only instance I can think of where Clan Tech is OP. I saw a Quad Gauss Daishi one match, which was also nasty, but the 2x PPC 2x Gauss has much more instant Damage Potential. Fortunately, the Chassis that can mount it has the same nimbleness as a Blue Whale. LBX Heavy chassis can do some nasty sandpapering as well, but anything running UACs or Lasers needs time on target to do so.

The Quad Gauss also has all of 2.5 tons of ammo unless you strip armor.

And with the huge Jumbo jet CT, and complete Cargo Ship on a sandbar mobility of a Dire Wolf? You DON'T remove armor.... or you won't even have a remote chance of using that 2 tons of ammo.

[Blue Boutique]

We need a IS song:

Don't kip the Kitfox
Don't awe the Adder
Don't neat the Nova
Don't stare the Stormcrow
Don't strand the Summoner
Do Talk the Timberwolf
Don't walk the Warhawk
Don't dead the Direwolf.

[Alistair Winter]

I don't know that Clan tech is OP, but it does seem like they have a lot more firepower. On the other hand, they do lack speed, so there is certainly a way to work around their strengths, but the problem is that there's a lot of IS builds that are now simply inferior.

Which is good, in a way. It means people have to adapt, change the way they play. On the other side, it's a fairly important factor that potentially simplifies the gameplay a lot. It means the key to defeat Clans is always speed and agility, the key to defeat Inner Sphere is always to pull them into a straight up firefight, where they can't use their speed.

I have 48 mechs with different types of set-ups (yeah, I was never into the meta, unfortunately) and now I may have to scrap half of them, because the stuff they could do, the Clans can do better. If I want to be a powerhouse damage dealer, I have to buy Clan mechs. All my Victors need XL engines, and my Awesomes need... well, they were always inferior to other assault mechs, to be honest. I don't know what my Atlas RS can do that a Clan Direwolf or Warhawk doesn't do better.

Then again, I haven't played a lot lately. Maybe I'll change my mind later.

EDIT: I've also had a lot of success with SRMs lately, btw. Compared to my other mechs, my Griffin with 3xSRM6+Artemis has far better KDR, damage and W/L ratio.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 21 June 2014 - 01:21 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Wolfways, on 21 June 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

You do realize you are wasting your time right? We've been saying basically the same things about LRM's for two years now

And did anyone pay attention? No.

Rebas Kradd, on 21 June 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

Does this mean the Clans might actually encourage smarter play?

Wow. This Clan pack might have been the most brilliant thing PGI has ever done.

Well, in theory sure, but in practice? No... People will just QQ loudly, until Clans are nerfed into uselessness for everyone.

See: AC/2.

[Bishop Steiner]

Blue Boutique, on 21 June 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

We need a IS song:

Don't kip the Kitfox
Don't awe the Adder
Don't neat the Nova
Don't stare the Stormcrow
Don't strand the Summoner
Do Talk the Timberwolf
Don't walk the Warhawk
Don't dead the Direwolf.

catchy, lol

[Khobai]

Quote

Not really needed tbh

Yes. It is. Because if you have the same number of clan mechs on both teams the advantages are negated.

The only way to see if clan mechs truly have an advantage is to do Clans vs IS. And I think the results of that would pretty conclusively prove that Mixed Clan+IS > Clan > IS

[Duran Vancor]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 June 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

You obviously have driven neither if you think them perfectly balanced.

But bravo using Inner Sphere mechs that are the laughing stock against OTHER Inner Sphere mechs to try (and fail, miserably) to make a point.

This is too fun.

"Inner Sphere mechs that are the laughing stock"

It's the perfect time to sell Clan mechs, while we haven't reached anything resembling balance within the Innersphere.

The mechs I mentioned are all terrible, no competitive player will ever use them. The same competitive players say the Timberwolf outshines anything in the game and the Summoner is better than the 3D, one of the best Innersphere mechs.

Those are competitive players opinions, if you care about appeal to authority. I agree with them though.

The terrible Innersphere mechs got 0 buffs and have to face shiny new toys and some players have the audacity to compare the Orion to the Timberwolf and say the Orion is better.

Orion

better than the

Timberwolf

This is laughable at best, sad at worst (I believe players know the Clans are op and they want them like that)

[Grey Black]

Duran Vancor, on 21 June 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Awesomes, Orions, Dragons and Hunchbacks have been ruling the meta for far too long. 9 medium lasers on the Hunchback are ridiculous. The Nova with his 12 mediums, 4 machine guns and jumpjets can barely keep up with that beastly Innersphere medium every competitive team brings 100% of the time.

Those overpowered mechs finally have some competition with the perfectly balanced Timberwolf or Summoner.

Wait.




Wait.









Wait.
Are you really complaining that Awesomes, Orions, Dragons and Hunchbacks are META? Someone hasn't logged on in a while or is stuck in a low ELO bracket. You shouldn't compare the Mad Cat or Thor to those mechs; rather, compare them to the Victor, Shadowhawk, and Firestarter (Ember variant). Your hunchback example generates ludicrous amounts of heat. Awesomes are hamstrung by the inability to mount effective weaponry outside of LRMageddon (and LRMs are one of the weaker weapons out there, MWO's version of the Noob Tube). Orions are a joke, as their low slung arms and abysmal maneuverability makes them ill-suited to any role in high-level play, and Dragons have laughable hardpoints while requiring the use of an XL engine and massive side-torsi. Good games with those mechs and good players in those mechs are the EXCEPTION, not the rule.

Comparative, the Mad Cat S torsi allow jump-sniping with twin c/ERPPC and a c/Gauss. The Thor, while weaker, can still be effective depending on the pods taken (e.g. I'm currently in love with the c/ERPPC/c/UAC20 Thor). Both are effectively able to apply IS tactics to Clan mechs. For balance? I'm going to have to say the Mad Cat and Thor blow your examples completely out of the water.

EDIT: OH WAIT, SARCASM. Seriously, can we institute the blue text rule around here?

Edited by Grey Black, 21 June 2014 - 01:23 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 21 June 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

I don't know that Clan tech is OP, but it does seem like they have a lot more firepower. On the other hand, they do lack speed, so there is certainly a way to work around their strengths, but the problem is that there's a lot of IS builds that are now simply inferior.

Which is good, in a way. It means people have to adapt, change the way they play. On the other side, it's a fairly important factor that potentially simplifies the gameplay a lot. It means the key to defeat Clans is always speed and agility, the key to defeat Inner Sphere is always to pull them into a straight up firefight, where they can't use their speed.

I have 48 mechs with different types of set-ups (yeah, I was never into the meta, unfortunately) and now I may have to scrap half of them, because the stuff they could do, the Clans can do better. If I want to be a powerhouse damage dealer, I have to buy Clan mechs. All my Victors need XL engines, and my Awesomes need... well, they were always inferior to other assault mechs, to be honest. I don't know what my Atlas RS can do that a Clan Direwolf or Warhawk doesn't do better.

Then again, I haven't played a lot lately. Maybe I'll change my mind later.

It really isn't.
http://mwomercs.com/...e-the-invasion/
That covers the loose differences between the two.

I have been running around in a non optimized Griffin, a Troll Build Jager, and other pretty basic, not terribly fast IS Heavies, and not having any real issues. If you get caught out, or flatfooted, they certainly will kill you dead, but so will focus fire from an IS mech.

What kills me is the number of people wanting to take the IS number one weapons advantage, FLD Autocannons and nerf them.

[Duran Vancor]

Grey Black, on 21 June 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

Wait.




Wait.









Wait.


snip

I was being facetious. All the mechs I mentioned are terrible. Like "omg how can they suck so bad" terrible. And yet I see people tell me those rides can not only compete with the new mechs, they are actually better.

It's all rather funny

[Torgun]

Nvm

Edited by Torgun, 21 June 2014 - 01:27 PM.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Khobai, on 21 June 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

Yes. It is. Because if you have the same number of clan mechs on both teams the advantages are negated.

The only way to see if clan mechs truly have an advantage is to do Clans vs IS. And I think the results of that would pretty conclusively prove that Mixed Clan+IS > Clan > IS

What they really need to do is run another Tournament. Clan vs IS. IS meta will dramatically and clearly show just how outclassed Clan mechs truly are when it matters the most.

What the Underhive deems as balanced or OP really doesn't amount to a hill of beans since most will happily take the trial Atlas and go charging off on their own on their vain attempt to get into Valhalla.

[Alistair Winter]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 June 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

It really isn't.
http://mwomercs.com/...e-the-invasion/
That covers the loose differences between the two.

Well, I disagree with the OP in that thread. I mean, I know that there's a certain MWO terminology which makes AC fire DOT because it doesn't have the instant damage of a PPC, but in many other games, you would hardly call AC fire DOT. It's not like getting poisoned in an MMO, or being set on fire in other Mechwarrior games.

A Direwolf with a million UAC2 and UAC5s will win in a straight up, toe to toe shoot-out against an IS mech, from what I can tell. I used to run a few Atlas and Victor mechs with small engines and lots of ballistics, and on paper, they seem inferior to the Clan assault mechs. In reality, I'll probably still do ok with them, but that's at least partially because I have an average skill level, and there are Clan players out there with below average skills.

[Duran Vancor]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 21 June 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

What they really need to do is run another Tournament. Clan vs IS. IS meta will dramatically and clearly show just how outclassed Clan mechs truly are when it matters the most.

What the Underhive deems as balanced or OP really doesn't amount to a hill of beans since most will happily take the trial Atlas and go charging off on their own on their vain attempt to get into Valhalla.

Somebody said underhive, I might be there. Too bad of a player to know such things.

Top competitive players recently had a 2 hour stream discussing Clan balance. Some of the suggestions thrown around by them to balance are...

-add 2 second cd to the cERPPC
-add all weapons in a ghost heat pool and balance around a max alpha

and the best one...

-remove the Timberwolf S variant from the game!

I as a underhive player think those things are over the top, but top tier players know way more than me, don't they?

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 21 June 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Well, I disagree with the OP in that thread. I mean, I know that there's a certain MWO terminology which makes AC fire DOT because it doesn't have the instant damage of a PPC, but in many other games, you would hardly call AC fire DOT. It's not like getting poisoned in an MMO, or being set on fire in other Mechwarrior games.

A Direwolf with a million UAC2 and UAC5s will win in a straight up, toe to toe shoot-out against an IS mech, from what I can tell. I used to run a few Atlas and Victor mechs with small engines and lots of ballistics, and on paper, they seem inferior to the Clan assault mechs. In reality, I'll probably still do ok with them, but that's at least partially because I have an average skill level, and there are Clan players out there with below average skills.

Actually, the DW loses, a lot. Because straight guns don't tell the whole tale, which is the point of the OP.

Also, what do you describe lasers as then? Because you see many people complain that IS ACs are Pinpoint FLD whilst lasers are DoT.

Since burst damage is NOT instantaneous, it can be spread, Thus it is DoT. Sorry man.

Duran Vancor, on 21 June 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

Somebody said underhive, I might be there. Too bad of a player to know such things.

Top competitive players recently had a 2 hour stream discussing Clan balance. Some of the suggestions thrown around by them to balance are...

-add 2 second cd to the cERPPC
-add all weapons in a ghost heat pool and balance around a max alpha

and the best one...

-remove the Timberwolf S variant from the game!

I as a underhive player think those things are over the top, but top tier players know way more than me, don't they?

Got links? Cuz I can tell you many other top tier players who have no issue with it. (of course I could also see where Poptarts would complain as it does seem the Clans are more effective against Meta than not)