156 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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I also don't think it needs a Stalker's hitboxes.

It does need side torso hitboxes similar to the Stalker's, but not as pronounced as the Stalker's. Because the Dire Wolf has a protruding fuselage which makes the CT extremely easy to hit from the side. A mech should almost never get hit in the CT if its facing perpendicular to the enemy. This also needs to be fixed on the Catapult still... 2 years later.

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Yeah, as much fun as ballistic boat Assault is, a ballistic cooldown penalty is probably needed, especially if it gets improved, tankier hitboxes.

Yep. The ballistic builds are completely out of hand as is. So a +7.5% ballistic cooldown penalty for each B side torso would be an acceptable penalty in exchange for tankier hitboxes. This would prevent the Dire Wolf from becoming overpowered.

Edited by Khobai, 22 June 2014 - 01:24 AM.

[MechWarrior849305]

orin, on 22 June 2014 - 12:12 AM, said:

Easily the most disappointing of the Clan mechs. As I said in another thread - the only reason the Wolf's Dragoons would have given this 'mech to Victor and Hohiro is if they wanted them to die in the first few minutes of the next battle.

So... You say, that Kai Allard Liao saw this issue in before real battle and just refused to accept this "gift"?

[kapusta11]

Khobai, on 22 June 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

Yep. The ballistic builds are completely out of hand as is. So a +7.5% ballistic cooldown penalty for each B side torso would be an acceptable penalty in exchange for tankier hitboxes. This would prevent the Dire Wolf from becoming overpowered.

But now it's OMG BURST FIRE, the thing you've been waiting for so long, the thing that supposed to fix everything in the world.

[Khobai]

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But now it's OMG BURST FIRE, the thing you've been waiting for so long, the thing that supposed to fix everything in the world.

I didnt think theyd actually give it 6 ballistic hardpoints though. Burst fire is enough to balance maybe 4 ballistic hardpoints at most. You need extra penalties to balance 6 ballistic hardpoints though.

Also since the Dire Wolf is so strong as is, it seems prudent to balance it with a give and take approach. So if you fix its hitboxes you have to take something away from its firepower. Smaller CT in exchange for slowing down its ballistic dps seems like a fair trade to me.

Assaults are supposed to be tanky theyre not supposed to be glass cannons. So adding defense and removing offense brings the Dire Wolf more into line with what the Assault class should be.

Edited by Khobai, 22 June 2014 - 01:44 AM.

[Varik Ronain]

Just because you do not like the CT does not mean it is broken. I know 2 guys in CI who I drop with who are devastating in the direwolf. I spectated a pilot who even was able to torso twist to spread the damage around just fine.

[Vassago Rain]

Khobai, on 22 June 2014 - 01:39 AM, said:

I didnt think theyd actually give it 6 ballistic hardpoints though. Burst fire is enough to balance maybe 4 ballistic hardpoints at most. You need extra penalties to balance 6 ballistic hardpoints though.

Also since the Dire Wolf is so strong as is, it seems prudent to balance it with a give and take approach. So if you fix its hitboxes you have to take something away from its firepower. Smaller CT in exchange for slowing down its ballistic dps seems like a fair trade to me.

Assaults are supposed to be tanky theyre not supposed to be glass cannons. So adding defense and removing offense brings the Dire Wolf more into line with what the Assault class should be.

Yeah, while you're at it, can you make my atlas damage resistant, and my stalkers, my victors, and every other priority target that I have?

Oh, wait.

[Khobai]

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Yeah, while you're at it, can you make my atlas damage resistant, and my stalkers, my victors, and every other priority target that I have?

The Daishi has it way worse than the Atlas, Stalker, and Victor though. Torso twisting actually helps protect your CT in those other mechs. Torso twisting in the Daishi is pointless because you still get hit in your protruding CT or you get shot in the crotch.

[Vassago Rain]

Khobai, on 22 June 2014 - 02:00 AM, said:

The Daishi has it way worse than the Atlas, Stalker, and Victor though. Torso twisting actually helps protect your CT in those other mechs. Torso twisting in the Daishi is pointless because you still get hit in your protruding CT or you get shot in the crotch.

You mean like how for the past two years, people have been shooting off my ballistic torso and plugging my atlas in the crotch?

[Khobai]

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You mean like how for the past two years, people have been shooting off my ballistic torso and plugging my atlas in the crotch?

They fixed the Atlas' crotch though. It counts as legs now.

[SirLANsalot]

Khobai, on 22 June 2014 - 01:39 AM, said:

I didnt think theyd actually give it 6 ballistic hardpoints though. Burst fire is enough to balance maybe 4 ballistic hardpoints at most. You need extra penalties to balance 6 ballistic hardpoints though.

Also since the Dire Wolf is so strong as is, it seems prudent to balance it with a give and take approach. So if you fix its hitboxes you have to take something away from its firepower. Smaller CT in exchange for slowing down its ballistic dps seems like a fair trade to me.

Assaults are supposed to be tanky theyre not supposed to be glass cannons. So adding defense and removing offense brings the Dire Wolf more into line with what the Assault class should be.

You do know a Ballistic CD actually would HELP the mech? Like how the Energy CD helps the mech now.

Increasing the CD of things also increases the cooling efficiency of a mech at the same time. More time spent "cooling down" is more time your HS have to dissipate the heat. Thus increasing your overall sustained DPS of a mech.

RIght now you can run 6 UAC5...but its ridiculously ineffective and suffers from overheating, and lack of arm movement. The more Efficient build for DakkaWolf is 4 UAC10 in the torsos with some ML in the arms for backup (and lower arm actuation). It also suffers from ghost heat too, but not nearly as severe as it is with 6 UAC5.

So go ahead and give it a ballistic CD "nerf" your only helping the mech, not hurting it.....but its hard to think creatively in ways that are actual nerfs that can't backfire and can't be abused.

[Khobai]

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You do know a Ballistic CD actually would HELP the mech? Like how the Energy CD helps the mech now.

No it wouldnt. It cant torso twist fast enough to take advantage of the longer CD. And that would be the only real advantage to a longer cooldown that I can think of.

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Increasing the CD of things also increases the cooling efficiency of a mech at the same time. More time spent "cooling down" is more time your HS have to dissipate the heat. Thus increasing your overall sustained DPS of a mech.

Which is the same thing as firing less often. You already have the option to fire less often to avoid overheating. There is no rule that says you HAVE to fire every time your cooldown is up. So a cooldown penalty is only ever a bad thing.

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So go ahead and give it a ballistic CD "nerf" your only helping the mech, not hurting it

Wrong. Its not helping the mech. Its helping bad players that cant manage their heat properly. For players that can manage their heat a cooldown penalty hurts more than it helps.

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RIght now you can run 6 UAC5

You can. But thats not really one of the x6 ballistic builds that scare me.

Its the more balanced builds like x4 UAC5, x2 MG, x2 ERPPC, x6 ERSL that get scary. And a +15% ballistic cooldown would definitely hurt that build. Especially in conjunction with the +15% energy cooldown the Daishi already has.

Edited by Khobai, 22 June 2014 - 02:34 AM.

[SirLANsalot]

Khobai, on 22 June 2014 - 02:16 AM, said:

You can. But thats not really one of the 6 ballistic builds that scares me.

Its the more balanced builds like x4 UAC5, x2 MG, x2 ERPPC, x6 ERSL that get scary. And a +15% ballistic cooldown definitely hurts that build.

15% hurts it HOW?

15% is NOTHING to short CD weapons, like ERSL aren't even phased by a 15% from the Primes arms even now, the UAC2/5 wouldn't even bat and eye at that. It would, in fact, hurt the UAC10/20/LBX/10/20 more as they have more of a CD for that % to apply to. Like using SSRM6's on a Timber Wolf-S side torsos is a very very bad idea, as the 10% CD turns the long 7sec CD even longer.

Now there is a point where a CD penalty does start to hurt a mech, and thats in where the long CD weapons start taking the hurt. Since there is more a CD for the penalty to apply to, your just trying to nerf XX weapon, but instead start to hurt other weapons just to "stop" the one. Its like killing the patient to kill the disease, it doesn't work.

As it stands now the ballistic ST of the DW give no bonuses at all, while the other ones do have some very nice bonuses that give the mech some much needed mobility. The RT from the prime has a nice one in it, and the RT from the A has half of that bonus, and the B has none at all. The LT from the prime has a 10% CD reduction to missiles, that actually is quite nice for an LRM20, while the A and B have no bonuses at all. The only reason the DW has any penalties at all is because it has so many energy HP's, the Nova has the same ones on its arms.

[Rogue Jedi]

I have been playing in premades, me in a ECM + 3 AMS Kit Fox guarding a player in a Dire Wolf, add the ECM to the Dire Wolf and you get a Dire Wolf rarely doing less than 800 damage, remove the ECM (e.g. I get taken out early) and the Dire Wolf rarely does more than 500 damage.

If it is harder to LRM or lock onto the Dire Wolf it can do exceptional well, but without ECM the Dire Wolf dies fast, I do not see a problem with this (I cannot use the Dire Wolf effectivly, too slow for me regardless of firepower I die pretty much instantly on seeing the enemy).

[Khobai]

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15% is NOTHING to short CD weapons

What are you talking about? Its all proportional.

15% longer cooldown means 15% less DPS regardless of whether the weapon fires once per second or once every five seconds. The fact a weapon has a shorter or longer cooldown is irrelevant because the DPS loss is the same either way: its a 15% loss of dps.

And 15% less DPS is hardly "nothing".

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Now there is a point where a CD penalty does start to hurt a mech, and thats in where the long CD weapons start taking the hurt.

Nope. If a PPC fires 15% slower its suffering the same dps loss as an AC2 that fires 15% slower. Both are doing 15% less DPS. Long cooldown weapons do not suffer anymore than short cooldown weapons.

Also if you slow down a PPC you can still can torso twist away from the target in between shots. But slowing down a UAC5 still doesnt slow it down enough to allow you to torso twist away in between firings. Thats one reason why weapons with faster cooldowns have always been at an inherent disadvantage (they also tend to spread damage around more).

Edited by Khobai, 22 June 2014 - 02:54 AM.

[KuroNyra]

the Dire Wolf is pretty well balanced at the moment.

But yeah, there is some twear required for the Center Torso, the CT is using so much place that you dont even need to aim in order to attack the CT.

[fandre]

After reading this thread and some other, I am wondering, if I am playing a whole different game. There are a lot of people complaining about op clan mechs even if these mechs are dying easily. As far as I have seen, Dire wolfs are also dying pretty fast in direct combat and even with heavy armament are not quite so good at dishing out lots of dmg. It is by far not op.

Back to topic: IMHO some clan mechs have hoods and it should be used as a shield against LRM. Therefore the hitboxes should be modelled in a way that the hood is only comprised of the side torsi protecting the center torso.

[Khobai]

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Dire wolfs are also dying pretty fast in direct combat

Which is the problem. 100 ton Assault mechs should be tanky. Instead the Dire Wolf plays more like a very slow heavy mech with twice the weapons of an Atlas. Its got very lopsided attributes that make it a proverbial glass cannon.

[fandre]

Khobai, on 22 June 2014 - 02:58 AM, said:

Its got very lopsided attributes that make it a proverbial glass cannon.

If it is nerfed further as suggest by others (e.g. increased cool down), we will get a glass water gun ...

[kapusta11]

Khobai, on 22 June 2014 - 02:58 AM, said:

Which is the problem. 100 ton Assault mechs should be tanky. Instead the Dire Wolf plays more like a very slow heavy mech with twice the weapons of an Atlas. Its got very lopsided attributes that make it a proverbial glass cannon.

We have all our weapons firing single component while armor increased only 2 times. Mechs won't tank anything unless the former (preferably) or the latter is fixed.

[Khobai]

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We have all our weapons firing single component while armor increased only 2 times. Mechs won't tank anything unless the former (preferably) or the latter is fixed.

Well if IS weapons get converted to burst/splash damage that will definitely help.