121 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Hotthedd, on 22 June 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

I disagree. In higher Elo play, it is much more about effectiveness than ease of use. Since a 12 man team can VERY effectively counter LRMs, you see less of them. But you DO still see them, and always paired with an effective scout.

Ease of use is a huge factor of "effectiveness".

The reason Poptarting is so powerful tactic is not inherent skill involved. It is because it is not only high reward/low risk, but with MWOs ridiculously easy aiming mechanics and perfect convergence, it is a very easy skill to learn.

Basic use in Low ELo play, LRMs are easy to use, because the targets are to be blunt, dumb. Instead of learning how to counter, they want their hands held and weapons nerfed.

In High Elo, they simply are not effective, because their ease of use, and limitations, when used against SKILLED players, make them a poor choice.

To be truly effective in middle tiers, is a chess match, where you need spotters, and to risk yourself quite a bit, and to be able to exploit gaps in cover, any oversights on the other team, like weak AMS/ECM, etc.

Intelligent use of the available counters, all but eliminates LRMs as an effective weapon. Thus to use them EFFECTIVELY, is anything but EZMode.

[darkchylde]

I'm playing the game - and I have to say its nice to see LRM's being used - and scouts tagging and narcing targets - but sadly it's still nowhere as good as FLD damage. Which is as simple as point, click, damaged delivered - where as the missile mechs - have to gain a lock, maintain the lock, then fire - and hope its not lost/smacks terrain on its way there/lost due to ecm coverage/line of sight.....and so on.

[Hotthedd]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

Ease of use is a huge factor of "effectiveness".

The reason Poptarting is so powerful tactic is not inherent skill involved. It is because it is not only high reward/low risk, but with MWOs ridiculously easy aiming mechanics and perfect convergence, it is a very easy skill to learn.

Basic use in Low ELo play, LRMs are easy to use, because the targets are to be blunt, dumb. Instead of learning how to counter, they want their hands held and weapons nerfed.

In High Elo, they simply are not effective, because their ease of use, and limitations, when used against SKILLED players, make them a poor choice.

To be truly effective in middle tiers, is a chess match, where you need spotters, and to risk yourself quite a bit, and to be able to exploit gaps in cover, any oversights on the other team, like weak AMS/ECM, etc.

Intelligent use of the available counters, all but eliminates LRMs as an effective weapon. Thus to use them EFFECTIVELY, is anything but EZMode.

You do realize you are moving the goalposts a bit from my original argument, right?

I will accept your argument that there is a sliding scale up the Elo and "Team" ladder as far as "effective" ease of use, but that is not counter to my original argument.

I agree with you 100% about the convergence mechanics making the alpha shot sniper role too easy as well. I would love to see this game move closer to the sim we were all promised so long ago.

[Serpieri]

What's funny about the people complaining about getting killed by LRMS in the open is that PPC/Guass/ACs will kill them much faster.

Lesson to be Learned - don't be in the open and hope its an lrm mech targeting you and not one loaded with FLD weapons.

[Hotthedd]

Serpieri, on 22 June 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

What's funny about the people complaining about getting killed by LRMS in the open is that PPC/Guass/ACs will kill them much faster.

Lesson to be Learned - don't be in the open and hope its an lrm mech targeting you and not one loaded with FLD weapons.

At least the PPC/Gauss/AC mech will have to AIM to hit you, and, in the process, expose himself you return fire.

[Serpieri]

Hotthedd, on 22 June 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

At least the PPC/Gauss/AC mech will have to AIM to hit you, and, in the process, expose himself you return fire.

Hate to break it to you - but so does the LRM mech - and let's be honest - pointing and clicking is not hard - esp. when using advanced zoom - FLD has no hard counter - LRMS have ton. LRMS are also spread damage.

Edited by Serpieri, 22 June 2014 - 10:19 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Serpieri, on 22 June 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

Hate to break it to you - but so does the LRM mech - and let's be honest - pointing and clicking is not hard - esp. when using advanced zoom - FLD has no hard counter - LRMS have ton. LRMS are also spread damage.

The LRM mech does NOT have to expose itself. If anyone else on his team has line of sight, its bombs away.

[Oni Ralas]

Hotthedd, on 22 June 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

At least the PPC/Gauss/AC mech will have to AIM to hit you, and, in the process, expose himself you return fire.

In order to tag, I must be looking at the target. Unlike your PPC/AC friend, my exposure is a lot longer. In addition, I must hover my reticle over you for several seconds, get a lock and then wait another .5 due to bug before I can release. Then you have flight time. You see where I'm going with this.

Aiming in MWO is *CAKE* compared to a twitch shooter. Most just go for center mass, and if they happen to wing or leg someone - they chalk it up to their "leet aiming" rather than a miss

[Serpieri]

Hotthedd, on 22 June 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

The LRM mech does NOT have to expose itself. If anyone else on his team has line of sight, its bombs away.

And the PopTart does expose itself - lol

[Felicitatem Parco]

I wonder how many people in the "LRMs ARE OP!" camp try to hold the spaceport in River City when the enemy has LRM boats? For some reason, many of my PUG teams try to hold the upper deck of the Spaceport and then die from LRMs. in that case, LRMs are easy to use.

It's easy to use any weapon when your target presents itself in a favorable fashion. It's kind of a redundant statement, I know, but it's something that is escaping many people.

[darkchylde]

Hotthedd, on 22 June 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

The LRM mech does NOT have to expose itself. If anyone else on his team has line of sight, its bombs away.

So Teamwork is OP.

Let me know what kills faster a LRM mech with a spotter or two mechs with FLD aiming for your torso?

[Wolfways]

Hotthedd, on 22 June 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

Which begs the question:
If LRMs weren't so easy to use, why would PGI have to come up with a module slot counter?

Because LRM's are easy to use...against bad players who would rather whine on the forums than learn to use cover effectively.

[Hotthedd]

Oni Ralas, on 22 June 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

In order to tag, I must be looking at the target. Unlike your PPC/AC friend, my exposure is a lot longer. In addition, I must hover my reticle over you for several seconds, get a lock and then wait another .5 due to bug before I can release. Then you have flight time. You see where I'm going with this.

Aiming in MWO is *CAKE* compared to a twitch shooter. Most just go for center mass, and if they happen to wing or leg someone - they chalk it up to their "leet aiming" rather than a miss

TAG and LRMs are different things.

Serpieri, on 22 June 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

And the PopTart does expose itself - lol

Your use of the tu quoque fallacy does not diminish my argument. One not being exposed has nothing to do with the other.

Prosperity Park, on 22 June 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

I wonder how many people in the "LRMs ARE OP!" camp try to hold the spaceport in River City when the enemy has LRM boats? For some reason, many of my PUG teams try to hold the upper deck of the Spaceport and then die from LRMs. in that case, LRMs are easy to use.

It's easy to use any weapon when your target presents itself in a favorable fashion. It's kind of a redundant statement, I know, but it's something that is escaping many people.

Not sure if you are referring to me, but I never said LRMs are OP. In fact they are pretty close to where they should be, IMO.
...I said they were too easy to use.

[Nyte Kitsune]

I agree that in your average solo drop piloting an LRM boat is "Nearly" pointless, most solo players are only worried about getting kills, not working as a team (don't chew me out, you know its true). I find the only time I use mine is when I'm playing in a 4-man, the rest of the time I pilot something else as even "If" the other team doesn't have a lot of ECM I find that hardly anyone locks onto a target (For those that keep forgetting, its the "R" key). But as for being useless.. Hardly, I still use mine fairly regularly.

[Serpieri]

Hotthedd, on 22 June 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

TAG and LRMs are different things.

Your use of the tu quoque fallacy does not diminish my argument. One not being exposed has nothing to do with the other.

Not sure if you are referring to me, but I never said LRMs are OP. In fact they are pretty close to where they should be, IMO.
...I said they were too easy to use.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAA.......

Just WoW.

[Hotthedd]

darkchylde, on 22 June 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

So Teamwork is OP.

Let me know what kills faster a LRM mech with a spotter or two mechs with FLD aiming for your torso?

Team work is great.
I'm not claiming anything is OP.

Wolfways, on 22 June 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

Because LRM's are easy to use...against bad players who would rather whine on the forums than learn to use cover effectively.

Nice ad hominem attack.

Personally, I know how to avoid dying to LRMs under normal circumstances.
My problem is more along the lines of LRMs being a crutch for unskilled players. NOTHING against the good LRM using players out there.

...although you did seem to take it personally....Hmmmm.

[FETTY WAP]

While I do fall to LRMs sometimes (get caught out/narc'd/tagged), I don't think you need to come here and ragepost about how OP they are and how they ruin the game just because you died to them.

[Oni Ralas]

Hotthedd, on 22 June 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

The LRM mech does NOT have to expose itself. If anyone else on his team has line of sight, its bombs away.

LRM mech cannot hug the wall, missiles will bounce - so he/she must be far enough away and in a position so the bees can leave the hive. poptarts have no such issues. And note the big word in your secondary point - IF. IF his team has LoS, and IF, they hold locks for long enough, you MIGHT get a volley or two to land. The reality of the situation is that, in todays world, no one is exposing themselves long enough to lock up a target for indirect fire support. So no, your point is basically moot.

[darkchylde]

Hotthedd, on 22 June 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Team work is great.
I'm not claiming anything is OP.
Nice ad hominem attack.

Personally, I know how to avoid dying to LRMs under normal circumstances.
My problem is more along the lines of LRMs being a crutch for unskilled players. NOTHING against the good LRM using players out there.

...although you did seem to take it personally....Hmmmm.

You failed to answer the question?

Crutch Really? - it takes more effort to maintain a lock then point and click.

Edited by darkchylde, 22 June 2014 - 10:40 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Anyone ever see a good Trebuchet pilot with a 300-330XL engine chucking LRMs? Ouch, those little buggers are evil.

Anyone ever see a poor Trebuchet pilot chucking LRMs? Nomnomnom, yummy breakfast.

If you want to say that "LRMs are easy to play" than you can just as easily say that "PopTarting is easy to play" because playing doesn't meant hitting your target. Using LRMs is an easy way to throw missiles at buildings, and PopTarting is an easy way to shoot rocks and trees.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 22 June 2014 - 10:40 AM.