180 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

Koniving, on 22 June 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

The pre-2012? Not many. The 2012? I'm here.

I recently returned from an 8 month forum post break. Lots of oldtimers occasionally play, but few post.

[Yokaiko]

I was never well mannered.

[Sandpit]

Sephlock, on 22 June 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

If I could remember the exact wording, this would be a great time to quote the narrator on Archer from Fate Stay/Night. You know, stuff about blades growing dull over time and all that.

Long story short: people went from bright-eyed optimism to bitter, hate-filled cynicism.

DO YOU HEAR THAT? I HEREBY SUMMON THEE, SANDPIT!

*PUFF OF SMOKE*

*POOF*
I'm sorry, starting two of the most popular and hottest threads for feedback to help improve the game is now going "hulk"? lol


Let's start with a brief history lesson for the benefit of the "newcomers"...


2012: Game is announced, CB is opened up, and many of us buy founders packs both for CB access and to help support the game.
The game is billed as "Thinking man's shooter" with 4 pillars that are touted as being the core of gameplay and design for MWO
1: Community Warfare
2: Information Warfare
3: Role Warfare
4: (can't remember this one offhand)

Ok, not CW is billed as being an exciting battle for the inner sphere that will start pre-clan invasion and continue on past that point in Btech history. Great! Much debate and ideas on the forums follow. The first major split that I can recall began with PGI's decision to move from CB to OB. (now guys we're talking two years of history so this will be lengthy and dates won't be exact but I'll do my best to closely approximate(. There was another "first split" which began with PGI making the decision to double armor. This was just before I got into CB so I can't comment much on that other than conversations I had with people prior to that. This actually made me a bit skeptical but after joining and playing I could understand why they did it in the interest of balance.

Now, the OB/CB "split". Many players felt that moving to OB was a mistake as this game simply was not ready for that phase yet. I personally agreed with that BUT I understood and accepted that a lot of us were getting "beta" fatigue and that PGI had a need to test the game on a larger scale. It was still a beta so no biggy in my opinion. That still created the first "big" divide int he playerbase that I can recall.

Now we're in OB (Q4 of 2012, I joined summer of 2012). Ok, well the next thing is the announcement that CW (the single most important feature to many of the players as we fondly remembered MPBT3025) will be released 90 days after we go into OB. 90 days came and went. This is when the grumbling began on missed deadlines and created the next big divide. Many, myself included, took to the forums and spent HOURS posting about how we understood that delays happen. Again, no biggy.

Then we get told yet again that CW will release in 60 days. 60 days comes and goes....
Then PGI opens the store and starts accepting money for MC and mechs. This REALLY started to rub many the wrong way. The game was in OB, nowhere NEAR ready for "public" consumption. (When I say this I mean it really was bad when it came to certain areas of the game. The combat itself, in my opinion, has always been well done for the most part but we're talking collisions, crashed, performance issues, etc.), Again, many of us, myself included, understood, hey devs need to eat. Again, no biggy. Keep in mind this is also where the community started asking for and suggesting rudimentary and standard multiplayer things like:
Voip, lobbies, easy to use friend list, command blooms, etc. (think about this list and what on that list has actually been implemented from 2012 suggestions)
as well as reporting issues like collisions, mm issues, etc.

Now we're in OB early 2013, with a functioning store to sell stuff and generate revenue but we still have the same maps and mechs we had in CB, not much production in the way of content or bug fixes except to start adding monetized items to the game. Again, many of us defended this, myself included. From here we really start getting flooded with new players and feedback on everything from broken collisions to SRMs. This is also when we start hearing from PGI that the UI is the reason for slow development and it is bottlenecking the entire design process. Then we get told yet another timeframe for CW release. This is where we also start getting placeholders for pilot skills, targetting computers, etc.

We go from that to "launch" in mid 2013. Trust me when I say it was pretty much universally accepted that this game was nowhere near ready to launch. At this point the player base is told that groups and collisions (and i'm sure there were a few other things) were being "temporarily removed" so they could be reworked. We also get a launch date and told that CW will be out before launch. Then 30 days after launch. Then 90 days after launch.
It's also during this time period that the "UI is stopping development" was in full swing. Nothing was getting accomplished except the rolling out of hero mechs and plenty of items to buy. Meanwhile bug fixes, maps, CW, etc. were quietly being ignored. Well after the 90 day deadline for CW we get a post from Russ stating
"Great news! We have secured the license for MWO through 2018! NOW we can start working on CW"
? Wait, what do you mean you can finally start working on CW? What were you doing for the past year? This wasn't the first example though.
When more and more customers started becoming unhappy, PGI stated that they were seeking out a new demographic and those that were unhappy with aspects of the game were on an island.
This began with things like the removal of teh centurion-ah model. Many of us owned it and it was a great mech. Then one day we logged and to find that it had been removed because it was too similar to the Wang hero mech.
???
We got told that the AH was always just meant to be a placeholder for the Wang. So those of us that had bought and mastered it were SOL.
Then we get told that although it was heavily stated numerous times that this would be a sim and there would never be a 3pv implemented, PGI is considering implementing a 3pv.
In the ONLY poll in forum history that I can recall with such a response, THOUSANDS of players logged into the forums and voted "no" to 3pv. The "yes" votes were in the hundreds. So, the community had overwhelmingly voted no against 3pv, PGI does it any way and states "You'll never be forced to play against people who use it and there will be a separate queue" Well this turned into one of the earliest "position at the time" moments I can remember and really started the whole "island" thing. PGI then argued that it couldn't be abused even in the face of hundreds of examples and screenshots of how 3PV provided an advantage in being able to view around corners and such.

Then we get ghost heat. Players poured out to the forums to argue against it and offer hundreds of alternative solutions that would work much better in the eyes of most players. PGI implements ghost heat.
SO now you REALLY have some pissed off customers.

Then we get the Phoenix Pack announcement. All resources, naturally, must be diverted to get phoenix mechs out on time. So CW, role warfare, factions, lobbies, voip, essentially everything except the new UI gets backburnered yet again.

Then we get to mid 2013
Now we have the devs giving us numbers regarding groups. At one time groups (premades) were higher in number than PUGs. PGI states that for unknown reasons and to their "surprise" that placing limits on group sizes had reduced the number of groups and PUGs were now larger in number and that the "temporary" group limits would be permanent.
We still have very little in the way of content other than 3(?) maps and various weapon tweaks (other than mechs of course). At this point many of the former supporters have grown tired of "position at the time" T
We also get told by Russ himself that he guaranteed CW would come out before clans. Then less than 24 hours later PGI announces clans and their delivery date in June while CW would be out sometime that fall or winter...

2014:
We get told that CW, along with UI fixes (because it really was buggy and not user-friendly) were the highest priorities. UI fixes would come every patch with huge improvements every time.
Then we get told that everything else has to wait so they can focus on clan mechs and that CW is delayed yet again.

Just to recap the last 6 months or so?
2 maps
1 game mode
dozens of monetized mechs
that's it for "content"

We STILL don't have:
Role Warfare
Community Warfare
Information Warfare
Lobbies
Voip
Easy friend list
Social Tools
Command Blooms
Faction medallions that actually do something that were purchased in phoenix packs (but those clan items sure worked from day 1 didn't they?)
Collisions
separate queue for 3PV
Strong tutorials
DX11 full support (last I checked there were still performance issues with it I could be wrong on this one though)
Unlimited group sizes
solid MM system
mute options
block lists in game
new game modes
new maps
working targeting computers
working c3 systems

I could keep going with the list but I think it's good enough for example purposes.

Now hopefully that explains to some why many of us have finally "had it" with PGI and "be patient, they gave us a "REAL" release date and timeframe now"

There are plenty of other examples of how and why many players became much more cynical and are no longer willing to "be patient" This didn't happen over the course of a few days, or weeks, or even months, this has been a steady process over 2 years in the making now.

oh and P.S.

things like hitbox adjustments were also called for in CB, we still have mechs that haven't gotten around to being "fixed" yet. Just wanted to throw out another example

[Yokaiko]

Sandpit, on 22 June 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

*POOF*
I'm sorry, starting two of the most popular and hottest threads for feedback to help improve the game is now going "hulk"? lol


Let's start with a brief history lesson for the benefit of the "newcomers"...


2012: Game is announced, CB is opened up, and many of us buy founders packs both for CB access and to help support the game.
The game is billed as "Thinking man's shooter" with 4 pillars that are touted as being the core of gameplay and design for MWO
1: Community Warfare
2: Information Warfare
3: Role Warfare
4: (can't remember this one offhand)

Ok, not CW is billed as being an exciting battle for the inner sphere that will start pre-clan invasion and continue on past that point in Btech history. Great! Much debate and ideas on the forums follow. The first major split that I can recall began with PGI's decision to move from CB to OB. (now guys we're talking two years of history so this will be lengthy and dates won't be exact but I'll do my best to closely approximate(. There was another "first split" which began with PGI making the decision to double armor. This was just before I got into CB so I can't comment much on that other than conversations I had with people prior to that. This actually made me a bit skeptical but after joining and playing I could understand why they did it in the interest of balance.

Now, the OB/CB "split". Many players felt that moving to OB was a mistake as this game simply was not ready for that phase yet. I personally agreed with that BUT I understood and accepted that a lot of us were getting "beta" fatigue and that PGI had a need to test the game on a larger scale. It was still a beta so no biggy in my opinion. That still created the first "big" divide int he playerbase that I can recall.

Now we're in OB (Q4 of 2012, I joined summer of 2012). Ok, well the next thing is the announcement that CW (the single most important feature to many of the players as we fondly remembered MPBT3025) will be released 90 days after we go into OB. 90 days came and went. This is when the grumbling began on missed deadlines and created the next big divide. Many, myself included, took to the forums and spent HOURS posting about how we understood that delays happen. Again, no biggy.

Then we get told yet again that CW will release in 60 days. 60 days comes and goes....
Then PGI opens the store and starts accepting money for MC and mechs. This REALLY started to rub many the wrong way. The game was in OB, nowhere NEAR ready for "public" consumption. (When I say this I mean it really was bad when it came to certain areas of the game. The combat itself, in my opinion, has always been well done for the most part but we're talking collisions, crashed, performance issues, etc.), Again, many of us, myself included, understood, hey devs need to eat. Again, no biggy. Keep in mind this is also where the community started asking for and suggesting rudimentary and standard multiplayer things like:
Voip, lobbies, easy to use friend list, command blooms, etc. (think about this list and what on that list has actually been implemented from 2012 suggestions)
as well as reporting issues like collisions, mm issues, etc.

Now we're in OB early 2013, with a functioning store to sell stuff and generate revenue but we still have the same maps and mechs we had in CB, not much production in the way of content or bug fixes except to start adding monetized items to the game. Again, many of us defended this, myself included. From here we really start getting flooded with new players and feedback on everything from broken collisions to SRMs. This is also when we start hearing from PGI that the UI is the reason for slow development and it is bottlenecking the entire design process. Then we get told yet another timeframe for CW release. This is where we also start getting placeholders for pilot skills, targetting computers, etc.

We go from that to "launch" in mid 2013. Trust me when I say it was pretty much universally accepted that this game was nowhere near ready to launch. At this point the player base is told that groups and collisions (and i'm sure there were a few other things) were being "temporarily removed" so they could be reworked. We also get a launch date and told that CW will be out before launch. Then 30 days after launch. Then 90 days after launch.
It's also during this time period that the "UI is stopping development" was in full swing. Nothing was getting accomplished except the rolling out of hero mechs and plenty of items to buy. Meanwhile bug fixes, maps, CW, etc. were quietly being ignored. Well after the 90 day deadline for CW we get a post from Russ stating
"Great news! We have secured the license for MWO through 2018! NOW we can start working on CW"
? Wait, what do you mean you can finally start working on CW? What were you doing for the past year? This wasn't the first example though.
When more and more customers started becoming unhappy, PGI stated that they were seeking out a new demographic and those that were unhappy with aspects of the game were on an island.
This began with things like the removal of teh centurion-ah model. Many of us owned it and it was a great mech. Then one day we logged and to find that it had been removed because it was too similar to the Wang hero mech.
???
We got told that the AH was always just meant to be a placeholder for the Wang. So those of us that had bought and mastered it were SOL.
Then we get told that although it was heavily stated numerous times that this would be a sim and there would never be a 3pv implemented, PGI is considering implementing a 3pv.
In the ONLY poll in forum history that I can recall with such a response, THOUSANDS of players logged into the forums and voted "no" to 3pv. The "yes" votes were in the hundreds. So, the community had overwhelmingly voted no against 3pv, PGI does it any way and states "You'll never be forced to play against people who use it and there will be a separate queue" Well this turned into one of the earliest "position at the time" moments I can remember and really started the whole "island" thing. PGI then argued that it couldn't be abused even in the face of hundreds of examples and screenshots of how 3PV provided an advantage in being able to view around corners and such.

Then we get ghost heat. Players poured out to the forums to argue against it and offer hundreds of alternative solutions that would work much better in the eyes of most players. PGI implements ghost heat.
SO now you REALLY have some pissed off customers.

Then we get the Phoenix Pack announcement. All resources, naturally, must be diverted to get phoenix mechs out on time. So CW, role warfare, factions, lobbies, voip, essentially everything except the new UI gets backburnered yet again.

Then we get to mid 2013
Now we have the devs giving us numbers regarding groups. At one time groups (premades) were higher in number than PUGs. PGI states that for unknown reasons and to their "surprise" that placing limits on group sizes had reduced the number of groups and PUGs were now larger in number and that the "temporary" group limits would be permanent.
We still have very little in the way of content other than 3(?) maps and various weapon tweaks (other than mechs of course). At this point many of the former supporters have grown tired of "position at the time" T
We also get told by Russ himself that he guaranteed CW would come out before clans. Then less than 24 hours later PGI announces clans and their delivery date in June while CW would be out sometime that fall or winter...

2014:
We get told that CW, along with UI fixes (because it really was buggy and not user-friendly) were the highest priorities. UI fixes would come every patch with huge improvements every time.
Then we get told that everything else has to wait so they can focus on clan mechs and that CW is delayed yet again.

Just to recap the last 6 months or so?
2 maps
1 game mode
dozens of monetized mechs
that's it for "content"

We STILL don't have:
Role Warfare
Community Warfare
Information Warfare
Lobbies
Voip
Easy friend list
Social Tools
Command Blooms
Faction medallions that actually do something that were purchased in phoenix packs (but those clan items sure worked from day 1 didn't they?)
Collisions
separate queue for 3PV
Strong tutorials
DX11 full support (last I checked there were still performance issues with it I could be wrong on this one though)
Unlimited group sizes
solid MM system
mute options
block lists in game
new game modes
new maps
working targeting computers
working c3 systems

I could keep going with the list but I think it's good enough for example purposes.

Now hopefully that explains to some why many of us have finally "had it" with PGI and "be patient, they gave us a "REAL" release date and timeframe now"

There are plenty of other examples of how and why many players became much more cynical and are no longer willing to "be patient" This didn't happen over the course of a few days, or weeks, or even months, this has been a steady process over 2 years in the making now.

oh and P.S.

things like hitbox adjustments were also called for in CB, we still have mechs that haven't gotten around to being "fixed" yet. Just wanted to throw out another example

Although totally true.

....that post will likely get this thread tossed.

[Damocles69]

bro,
do you even internet?

[Vassago Rain]

Sandpit, on 22 June 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

Too many words.

They will NEVER live it down.

[Bobby Blast]

I was optimistic when I started but I got tired of all the whining. The piss poor players makes it hard to be polite also. The problem I see in the game that makes it a sub par is the lack of voice communication. If you have a premade lance and you have a plan, you don't have time to type out your plan and the map command function is so damned hard to use it's garbage. SO people suck then they die then they yell at you for using tactics when they stood out in the open and caught LRM80's in the face. I just can't take the stupidity anymore. I try to remember people don't start off knowing what to do but when they didn't even go through the tutorial I LOSE... MY... MIND...

So when I saw this post I couldn't help but think it was about me. I joined a match and said "shut up" someone started talking smack, I retorted, 3 more people started talking smack we roflstomed them and my closing argument was "..I.."

Sorry the PUGs made me this way, I feel like I'm losing control now.

[kilgor]

It does seem that people are more ill mannered nowadays. I was just in a match and the last one alive because our team got wiped out and I was capping a point by myself and one of my team mates was cussing at me and giving my position away continuously to the other team. I was in a Light 'Mech, so I'm trying to do what is an easier task for a light than brawling. The rest of the team had been wiped out by the time I barely capped to my side. But, my Jenner managed to finish off an Atlas before being destroyed.

[Vassago Rain]

Bobby Blast, on 22 June 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

I was optimistic when I started but I got tired of all the whining. The piss poor players makes it hard to be polite also. The problem I see in the game that makes it a sub par is the lack of voice communication. If you have a premade lance and you have a plan, you don't have time to type out your plan and the map command function is so damned hard to use it's garbage. SO people suck then they die then they yell at you for using tactics when they stood out in the open and caught LRM80's in the face. I just can't take the stupidity anymore. I try to remember people don't start off knowing what to do but when they didn't even go through the tutorial I LOSE... MY... MIND...

So when I saw this post I couldn't help but think it was about me. I joined a match and said "shut up" someone started talking smack, I retorted, 3 more people started talking smack we roflstomed them and my closing argument was "..I.."

Sorry the PUGs made me this way, I feel like I'm losing control now.

Are you saying that you were pic related?

[Wolfways]

kilgor, on 22 June 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

It does seem that people are more ill mannered nowadays. I was just in a match and the last one alive because our team got wiped out and I was capping a point by myself and one of my team mates was cussing at me and giving my position away continuously to the other team. I was in a Light 'Mech, so I'm trying to do what is an easier task for a light than brawling. The rest of the team had been wiped out by the time I barely capped to my side. But, my Jenner managed to finish off an Atlas before being destroyed.

If someone is giving the enemy your position report them.

[Bobby Blast]

I'll go with that. I would join a game and RP a little Star commander greeting and immediately get cussed at by 8 players who "hate clanners"

[Mioka Zahou]

Hello all,

Second post but I felt a need to reply to this one and say that as a closed beta player I'm also still around and staying positive all these years because l simply like to stomp around in gaint robots and blasting other gaint robots screaming "why won't you just diiiiie?!" To the monitor during a really good fight.

But admittedly being soloing all this time is making me a little lonely and an inbuilt team chat would be awesome

[Wildstreak]

A few times I got irritated on the forums.
I get irritated at some things in game but rarely chat about them.
After a few weeks ago, I cannot but believe SFC Sikes was talking about more than one person and his words apply to many things including here so I find it too hard to get mad remembering that.

[BourbonFaucet]

I'm ill mannered when my team is a complete potato, splitting up to die and failing to understand the basics of the game.

Otherwise I'm pretty good.

[Duncan Aravain]

I find that at my age, ALL you whipper snapper kids (under 40) are just plain rude....and get off my mech bay,too!

[Wolfways]

Duncan Aravain, on 22 June 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

I find that at my age, ALL you whipper snapper kids (under 40) are just plain rude....and get off my mech bay,too!

Miserable old git

[Sandpit]

Duncan Aravain, on 22 June 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

I find that at my age, ALL you whipper snapper kids (under 40) are just plain rude....and get off my mech bay,too!

Listen here grandpa, back I understand you had to dial uphill both ways in the snow to get to the online game but nowadays we have this neat thing called "broadband" lol

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Armored Yokai, on 22 June 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

From the creation of this site to the release of the clans People have started out as a friendly & positive playerbase, now it's partially or majorly tainted with negative behavior seen from other game playerbases.

welcome to free to play. You want a good community find a game thats pay to play and doesn't have a cash shop that lets you buy power and status. Free to play games attract terrible people, the kind that love to buy power and the kind that put nothing into it and suck the fun out for those that do because its their version of solitare, and they accumulate over time as its against our nature to abandon a time investment unless its immediately damaging to us. Meanwhile people looking for fun and aren't using it as an excuse for being bad burn out and move on. This is why its important to add competitive options to retain good players so that the bad ones don't entirely scare away new business.

Think basketball and shoes. A good chunk of the shoe market relies on basketball and runners to move products because people see successful sportsman and want to >literally< be in their shoes because it helps them connect more to their favorite players and their favorite sports. Doesn't matter they'll never be on that level, doesn't matter that most won't even really even do these kinds of sports. What matters is that people see someone being successful with a product, so that those people buy that product as well. This kind of advertising relies on our mirror neurons and our instinct to relate to other people and actions. This is why sport competition has so much advertisement, and why its on television at all.

This is the hurdle "esports" has to overcome, the makers of these games have to convince venues that there's a profit to be made, and for most games this is incredibly difficult because you have to reach out to spectators in a way they can relate to your sport. if you can't do this then its nothing more than a money sink in terms of competitive venue, and is why most games no matter how competitive they claim to be will never have the support you would expect of real sports. So don't expect mwo to ever be a serious competitive game unless they can figure out how to draw a crowd. Otherwise it will always be cash grab deals and catering.

Is there anything wrong with this? not unless you want to be competitive, but objectively from the business end of this there is nothing wrong. Just be happy pgi uses a pay for stuff model that doesn't permanently pay gate players, its about one of the few things they've actually done properly. The other thing they've done properly was turn ngng into a marketing weapon, because maybe, just maybe 2-3 years down the line this game will finally start coming into its own the way world of tanks is starting to, if they can just stay afloat - and judging from the clan deals I don't think that will be an issue if they maintain this level of business consistency.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 22 June 2014 - 07:34 PM.

[Sandpit]

Battlecruiser, on 22 June 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

welcome to free to play. You want a good community find a game thats pay to play and doesn't have a cash shop that lets you buy power and status.

I just don't agree with that. F2P has nothing to do with it. It has to do with the community itself. What causes a LOT of the friction is people on here tend to take things personally. This is especially true when someone posts something critical of PGI and/or MWO so then they take it to a personal level instead of actually discussing how to improve the game

[Yokaiko]

Sandpit, on 22 June 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

I just don't agree with that. F2P has nothing to do with it. It has to do with the community itself. What causes a LOT of the friction is people on here tend to take things personally. This is especially true when someone posts something critical of PGI and/or MWO so then they take it to a personal level instead of actually discussing how to improve the game

Yes it does.

F2Ps are straight up cash grabs...all of them. This one can't even come up with the BASICS of creating a community. All they had to do is NOT **** it up.

......we still don't have a damn lobby.