110 replies to this topic

[Aym]

Jman5, on 23 June 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

maths about deeps

Forgot to consider maths about HEATS though ;-)

[East Indy]

Jman5, on 24 June 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

Do you admit the clan er medium and small laser do more damage than their IS counterpart over the entire course of their beam duration?

This thread needs to end with Paul coming in and saying "Jman's right. And because I'm reputed to like 'pretty graphs,' ER medium lasers have 1.5-sec. duration and ER small lasers have 1.3-sec. duration. Peace."

[Roland]

Lily from animove, on 27 June 2014 - 03:33 AM, said:

yes clan lasers are supposed to be stronger, and the medium alsers beamduration is ok. You example is a bad abstraction for laboratory use cases which do not reflect the truth.

I love it when people who don't understand math get all huffy about it and start flailing their hands around like this.

JMan's math is totally solid here, and no one with a brain could possibly argue that it's somehow wrong... The criticisms laid out by you indicate that you had absolutely no idea what he was actually saying. You need to read it again. (or don't, whatever)

[Jman5]

Aym, on 27 June 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

Forgot to consider maths about HEATS though ;-)

Just to re-iterate a point I have been trying to make here. The purpose of this thread wasn't to provide a complete analysis of the er medium laser and er small laser. It was to point to one commonly misunderstood mechanic of these two lasers and why it's not a balancing factor with the IS ML and SL.

Btw, for those who do want a more comprehensive look at clan performance vs IS, there is an amazing thread here. The guy used an OCR to track stats of every mech he played with and against for 100+ matches.

[Violent Nick]

OP and others simply proving their ignorance again.

[Roland]

Nick86, on 27 June 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

OP and others simply proving their ignorance again.

Stupid science and math is always so biased!

[Shakespeare]

Roland, on 27 June 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

Stupid science and math is always so biased!

The math is, I'm sure, fine. That's not the problem.
He's still missing the point of the increased beam duration.

Clan lasers put out more damage (and more heat) for the same weight or less. If they had been left with the same duration as IS lasers, then the damage per-hit calculation would be higher than it is now.

The extended burn duration wasn't SUPPOSED to eliminate the damage increase. It was supposed to blunt it. Clan lasers are slightly better. Clan ER PPCs are slightly better.
That's pretty much the only set of weapons that Clan brings to the fight that have any advantage at all.

What, you thought that no clan tech would have any clear benefits? That the tradeoffs would be so steep that it may as well just be recolored / re-tooled IS weaponry?

No thanks. The increased damage potential you calculate does not take into account the gameplay impact of a longer burn. The only salient point I've seen is the suggestion to further decrease the IS Medium's heat, to make that weapon more useful in groups.

Clan lasers are doing well because the people using them to score kills are often using 4-12 of them on a mech. They do this because of the increased hardpoints and heat reserve, and because virtually EVERY weapon in the available clan arsenal is DPS, not Burst damage. Thus, there are fewer reasons to eschew lasers. Way before ghost heat and a few rebalances, the swayback was a lethal beast, for almost exactly the same reasons.

Numbers don't tell the whole story. All you've proven is precisely how down-tuned the clan lasers are, compared to what they could have been.

[Roland]

Quote

What, you thought that no clan tech would have any clear benefits? That the tradeoffs would be so steep that it may as well just be recolored / re-tooled IS weaponry?

Well, they also have significantly better range, which also translates into additional damage in practice.

However, I think that a big point of JMan's post isn't necessarily to make a statement about whether or not they should be as strong as they are.

I believe his post was meant as a conclusive counterargument against the people who were under the mistaken impression that the extended burn time of clan lasers somehow countered their extra damage. It clearly does not.

Frankly, one thing that I believe really does need to occur here is for IS lasers to have their original heat levels restored for the medium and small lasers. As it stands the IS medium and Small lasers are operating with a nerf going back to closed beta, while the clan lasers are using their normal BT stats.

[Jman5]

Shakespeare, on 27 June 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

The math is, I'm sure, fine. That's not the problem.
He's still missing the point of the increased beam duration.

Clan lasers put out more damage (and more heat) for the same weight or less. If they had been left with the same duration as IS lasers, then the damage per-hit calculation would be higher than it is now.

The extended burn duration wasn't SUPPOSED to eliminate the damage increase. It was supposed to blunt it. Clan lasers are slightly better. Clan ER PPCs are slightly better.
That's pretty much the only set of weapons that Clan brings to the fight that have any advantage at all.

What, you thought that no clan tech would have any clear benefits? That the tradeoffs would be so steep that it may as well just be recolored / re-tooled IS weaponry?

No thanks. The increased damage potential you calculate does not take into account the gameplay impact of a longer burn. The only salient point I've seen is the suggestion to further decrease the IS Medium's heat, to make that weapon more useful in groups.

Clan lasers are doing well because the people using them to score kills are often using 4-12 of them on a mech. They do this because of the increased hardpoints and heat reserve, and because virtually EVERY weapon in the available clan arsenal is DPS, not Burst damage. Thus, there are fewer reasons to eschew lasers. Way before ghost heat and a few rebalances, the swayback was a lethal beast, for almost exactly the same reasons.

Numbers don't tell the whole story. All you've proven is precisely how down-tuned the clan lasers are, compared to what they could have been.

I don't think anyone wants to turn clan tech into re-skinned IS tech, however most people, including the design team, wants overarching balance with IS tech. What we aren't trying to do with this game is make clan tech/mechs simply better overall. Now this thread is a very narrow look at one aspect of the Clan vs IS equation. That was done on purpose to keep the discussion focused. I never intended this to be the smoking gun on clans vs IS.

However when you read a thread like this it certainly reinforces the logic of this thread.

Is it better than it could have been? Sure, but that doesn't mean we should stop there.

Edited by Jman5, 27 June 2014 - 09:37 AM.

[EyeOne]

Atheus, on 23 June 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

If I'm building something for the purpose of shoving into enemy space with a lance or two and intimidating them into retreat, probably killing most as they scatter, there's nothing better than the C-UAC20 with maybe a mix of SRMs and/or lasers. This would most likely be a dire wolf. If I'm trying to build something sneak in and ninja pop people and then hit vanish, then I will consider an IS AC/20, but chances are I'm better off taking clan and using the C-LB20-X instead so I can pile on some other weapons too. This would be a Timberwolf

Actually play the game and you'll change your mind. See "watching videos" isn't a substitute.

[Shakespeare]

Jman5, on 27 June 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

I don't think anyone wants to turn clan tech into re-skinned IS tech, however most people, including the design team, wants overarching balance with IS tech. What we aren't trying to do with this game is make clan tech/mechs simply better overall. Now this thread is a very narrow look at one aspect of the Clan vs IS equation. That was done on purpose to keep the discussion focused. I never intended this to be the smoking gun on clans vs IS.

However when you read a thread like this it certainly reinforces the logic of this thread.

Is it better than it could have been? Sure, but that doesn't mean we should stop there.

I can agree with that - to be honest, the reason I responded in such a huff was in reply to the title sentence "an irrelevant disadvantage". It's not irrelevant, it does exactly what it's supposed to do, which is reduce the damage potential by extending that damage over a longer duration. It wasn't supposed to make it dead-even with IS lasers.

I can, however, see the point is suggesting that increased range might be enough of an advantage that the Clan lasers didn't need any help, even in reduced form. That said, Clan weaponry overall isn't as lethal as IS stuff, and I don't mind having at least one category that's in their favor a bit.