110 replies to this topic

[Rather Dashing]

THE PROBLEM ISN'T HOW OP CLAN MECHS AND WEAPONS ARE - BECAUSE THEY ARE AND THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE - BUT THE BALANCE SHOULD INSTEAD BE SHIFTED TO THE NUMBER OF MECHS EACH SIDE COULD FIELD.

TWO STARS FIGHTING THREE LANCES, 10V12.

GIVE THE FILTHY CLANNERS A 2 MAN HANDICAP AND THERE YOU GO.

1 STAR VS 2 LANCES WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER, BUT THE 12V12 MULTIPLAYER UPDATE SHOT THAT CHANCE OF BALANCE TO HELL.

[Koniving]

Atheus, on 23 June 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

No, I said exactly what I mean. It does 40 damage in 1 second, with one weapon. I don't give a **** that it's "spread out",

If PGI did it intelligently, it would not allow the 'second shot' until half way through the cooldown, so it'd be 5 shots of 4 damage each across 0.5 seconds, spaced by 1.5 to 2 seconds, then fire the next 5 shots to complete the double tap. Then in 1.5 to 2 seconds, it's been 4 seconds total and you've got another cycle to go through.

The forced 'tap every time' tidbit is to address this issue...

But we'd never have it if the mech had to wait for half cooldown to fire again.

Edited by Koniving, 23 June 2014 - 04:11 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Until the Clans have more than 1 Great Chassis, 2 Good Chassis and 1 Decent Chassis...i'm having a hard time getting riled up over this.

[Lyoto Machida]

Atheus, on 23 June 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

No, I said exactly what I mean. It does 40 damage in 1 second, with one weapon. I don't give a **** that it's "spread out",

it's.40.*******.damage.with.one.weapon

4 seconds later it does another 40 damage.

On the other side is the other UAC/20 which is doing the exact same thing.

BABABABABABABABABABA 80 damage
3 seconds...
BABABABABABABABABABA 80 damage
plus lasers

In haiku form:

If you blink but once
then you will probably miss
the hopeless mech die

You sure you understand how pinpoint, front loaded damage works in this game?

Let me ask you this...after only having watched videos of Clan ACs in action, which would you rather have on a build?

2 IS AC20s or 2 Clan UAC20s?

[Atheus]

Lyoto Machida, on 23 June 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

You sure you understand how pinpoint, front loaded damage works in this game?

Let me ask you this...after only having watched videos of Clan ACs in action, which would you rather have on a build?

2 IS AC20s or 2 Clan UAC20s?

If I'm building something for the purpose of shoving into enemy space with a lance or two and intimidating them into retreat, probably killing most as they scatter, there's nothing better than the C-UAC20 with maybe a mix of SRMs and/or lasers. This would most likely be a dire wolf. If I'm trying to build something sneak in and ninja pop people and then hit vanish, then I will consider an IS AC/20, but chances are I'm better off taking clan and using the C-LB20-X instead so I can pile on some other weapons too. This would be a Timberwolf

[Lyoto Machida]

Atheus, on 23 June 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

If I'm building something for the purpose of shoving into enemy space with a lance or two and intimidating them into retreat, probably killing most as they scatter, there's nothing better than the C-UAC20 with maybe a mix of SRMs and/or lasers. This would most likely be a dire wolf. If I'm trying to build something sneak in and ninja pop people and then hit vanish, then I will consider an IS AC/20, but chances are I'm better off taking clan and using the C-LB20-X instead so I can pile on some other weapons too. This would be a Timberwolf

Having played both, I'd take the dual IS AC20s at this point because I don't have the steady hand (or upgraded mouse) to hold perfect aim on subsequent shots to get all 20dmg onto one panel consistently. I can hit the dual AC20 shot and then turn away no problem though...too much time on target with the Clan ACs (and weapons in general).

Was having a hard time in my Dire Wolf with 3 UAC20s or 4 UAC10s but then I switched to the 6 UAC5s (and also the 2 CERPPC/2 CGauss combo) and my success has greatly increased in that chassis.

[Mechteric]

Rather Dashing, on 23 June 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

THE PROBLEM ISN'T HOW OP CLAN MECHS AND WEAPONS ARE - BECAUSE THEY ARE AND THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE - BUT THE BALANCE SHOULD INSTEAD BE SHIFTED TO THE NUMBER OF MECHS EACH SIDE COULD FIELD.

TWO STARS FIGHTING THREE LANCES, 10V12.

GIVE THE FILTHY CLANNERS A 2 MAN HANDICAP AND THERE YOU GO.

Hmm capslock must be broken. Remind yourself to fix that.

Also, 10v12 doesn't work when teams have mixed clan and IS mechs (which is allowed to happen at some point later in the timeline anyway, but doesn't matter since we're stuck in a lore blackhole).

[Vyviel]

Yay for math!

[Atheus]

Lyoto Machida, on 23 June 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

Having played both, I'd take the dual IS AC20s at this point because I don't have the steady hand (or upgraded mouse) to hold perfect aim on subsequent shots to get all 20dmg onto one panel consistently. I can hit the dual AC20 shot and then turn away no problem though...too much time on target with the Clan ACs (and weapons in general).

Was having a hard time in my Dire Wolf with 3 UAC20s or 4 UAC10s but then I switched to the 6 UAC5s (and also the 2 CERPPC/2 CGauss combo) and my success has greatly increased in that chassis.

Fair enough, though it sounds like a $50 upgrade to your mouse would be worthwhile, in your case. It's cheaper than clan tech

That said, for the guy who has the steady hand with a gaming mouse in it, those massively high output clan autocannons will be pretty devastating. It's the same for the clan lasers. It's not fire and forget, but if you can concentrate a little harder, it pays out in spades.

[Rather Dashing]

CapperDeluxe, on 23 June 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

Hmm capslock must be broken. Remind yourself to fix that.

EVERYTHING SEEMS ALL RIGHT ON MY END, YOU SURE IT ISN'T JUST YOU?

Quote

Also, 10v12 doesn't work when teams have mixed clan and IS mechs (which is allowed to happen at some point later in the timeline anyway, but doesn't matter since we're stuck in a lore blackhole).

MY STATEMENT WOULD OF COURSE BE IMPLYING WHEN COMMUNITY WARFARE ACTUALLY EXISTS AND THE PIG WOULDN'T BE AS INCOMPETENT AS THEY ARE NOW.

[JohnSoloman]

TO BE HONEST I DON'T REALLY SEE HOW CLAN MECHS AREN'T NERFED IN THE WRONG WAYS ALREADY, I MEAN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CLAN WEAPONS WITH A HIGH HEAT TAX ONTOP OF AN ALREADY ODD GHOST HEAT SYSTEM COMBINED WITH THE FACT CLANS DO NOT GET TRUEBORN DUBS.

REALLY CLANS SHOULD HAVE BEEN BALANCED BY A BV OR WEIGHT SYSTEM. OR EVEN A 1 STAR VS 2 LANCES. BUT CONSIDERING THAT ITS BEEN 2 YEARS AND NO COMMUNITY WARFARE IT DOESN'T MATTER MUCH. JUST ENJOY YOUR $500 MECH COUNTERSTRIKE.

[Atheus]

WEIRD. THIS THREAD IS SUDDENLY ALL IN CAPS.

[Rushmoar]

I think the duration is in play not meant to be a disadvantage in using er lasers but just a balance
mechanic because er tech does more damage period. How often does anyone get the whole duration on a target anyway? We are not competing at a firing range here. Targets hide and move. The damage and range is what gives ER lasers the advantage. These are my actual stats in game.
IS medium fired-46,049 hit-39,339 accu.85.43% dmg-111,965
C-er medium fired-6,304 hit-5,349 accu-84.85% dmg-20,940
The math:
IS med. 111,965/39,339=2.84 dmg per hit 1.4 heat per 1 dmg.
C-er med. 20,940/5349=3.32 dmg per hit 1.5 heat per 1 dmg.
So the clan er mediums are doing .48 damage more per shot. 16% more deadly at 30% longer duration.
So for me, the 30% is wasted shooting the air or the ground because I'm torso twisting or just missing. What I should say is that I'm 57% efficient with IS mediums and 47% with C-er mediums. Think this is due to not having XP on the Clan mechs as of now. If you treat all your shots the same way, you will get more damage per shot and clan tech will come out on top. If you get greedy and expose your self longer to get the whole duration then who knows. It's a team effort so one will gave the greater chance to take more damage if one is out in the open longer.
The skinny is they are clan weapons, they are stronger by nature or lore of whatever. Its the whole mech package that's is trying to be balanced here. I mean really c-er lasers are not extended range lasers they are double range lasers that hit harder. Full duration is not needed to compete with IS. If both were 5 damage a volley then duration is a disadvantage.
What do you think?
Cheers mates.

Edited by Rushmoar, 23 June 2014 - 07:25 PM.

[Sug]

Rushmoar, on 23 June 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

C-er medium fired-6,304 hit-5,349 accu-84.85% dmg-20,940

You've fired your Clan Med laser 6,304 times since last Tuesday?

Math from profile stats is generally worthless since we have no idea what is being tracked or how accurately.

I'm thinking Hits are really ticks of beam damage.

The closest I've seen to a "tick" being described was:

http://mwomercs.com/...us/page__st__40

Quote

Weapons that deal damage over time, like lasers, work by quickly dealing tiny amounts of damage repeatedly over the lifetime of the laser beam. I think the medium laser does something like 0.20 - 0.25 damage repeatedly until it does the full 5 damage.

Assuming all that's correct my Stats make no sense.

MEDIUM LASER 4,253 3,734 87.80% 12,292


So if an IS med laser does it's damage in 0.20 second ticks, 5 ticks a second, each tick is 1 damage. So my damage shouldn't be 3 times higher than my Hits, if Hits are Ticks and if Ticks do 1 damage each.

5 ticks per med laser shot, if I have 4,253 Ticks fired than I've really fired a medium laser 850.6 times. Even though it should be a multiple of 5 even. Maybe the discrepancy is from killing or being killed while firing and the extra damage isn't tracked.

So 850 med laser shots with 12,292 damage done means I did 14.5 damage with every med laser shot.

See how none of these stats make any sense??

Maybe I caused a bunch of ammo explosions with my med lasers and the damage got padded.

Wait, 4,253 shots/ticks in 122 matches is 34.8 shots per match. Ok that's doable.

Unless ticks are 0.1 seconds. 10 ticks per sec at 5 damage = 0.5 damage per tick.

3,734 ticks hit @ 0.5 damage each is....balls 1867 damage.

Where the hell is the 12,929 damage done coming from? I'd need 2585.8 full hits with a IS med laser to get that damage.

Edited by Sug, 23 June 2014 - 07:51 PM.

[Pjwned]

Jman5, on 23 June 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Disclaimer

For the sake of argument I am going to claim that the increased range advantage of clan ER ML lasers are canceled out by the increased heat requirements. IMO the range advantage is more valuable, but for simplicity I'll say it's a wash.

Personally, when I look at clan ERML and see 450m effective range (180m higher than IS ML, or 66% higher) for only 1 more heat than IS ML I think that's ridiculous. Personally I suggest increasing the heat even more but more importantly lowering the range because as it stands right now it has by far the best range:tonnage ratio in the entire game on top of it having a very respectable damage increase over IS ML for what little tradeoffs it has.

Sug, on 23 June 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

You've fired your Clan Med laser 6,304 times since last Tuesday?

Lasers hit many times over the beam duration, that's certainly not how many times the weapon was fired.

Edited by Pjwned, 23 June 2014 - 07:39 PM.

[Sug]

Pjwned, on 23 June 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

Lasers hit many times over the beam duration, that's certainly not how many times the weapon was fired.

See above for why it doesn't make sense either way.

[Jman5]

Rushmoar, on 23 June 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

I think the duration is in play not meant to be a disadvantage in using er lasers but just a balance
mechanic because er tech does more damage period. How often does anyone get the whole duration on a target anyway? We are not competing at a firing range here. Targets hide and move. The damage and range is what gives ER lasers the advantage. These are my actual stats in game.
IS medium fired-46,049 hit-39,339 accu.85.43% dmg-111,965
C-er medium fired-6,304 hit-5,349 accu-84.85% dmg-20,940
The math:
IS med. 111,965/39,339=2.84 dmg per hit 1.4 heat per 1 dmg.
C-er med. 20,940/5349=3.32 dmg per hit 1.5 heat per 1 dmg.
So the clan er mediums are doing .48 damage more per shot. 16% more deadly at 30% longer duration.
So for me, the 30% is wasted shooting the air or the ground because I'm torso twisting or just missing. What I should say is that I'm 57% efficient with IS mediums and 47% with C-er mediums. Think this is due to not having XP on the Clan mechs as of now. If you treat all your shots the same way, you will get more damage per shot and clan tech will come out on top. If you get greedy and expose your self longer to get the whole duration then who knows. It's a team effort so one will gave the greater chance to take more damage if one is out in the open longer.
The skinny is they are clan weapons, they are stronger by nature or lore of whatever. Its the whole mech package that's is trying to be balanced here. I mean really c-er lasers are not extended range lasers they are double range lasers that hit harder. Full duration is not needed to compete with IS. If both were 5 damage a volley then duration is a disadvantage.
What do you think?
Cheers mates.

Thanks for providing some hard data to the discussion. I think what your stats say line up pretty well with the point I was trying to make. Clan ER ML are out performing IS ML in damage despite the fact that they have longer beam duration. It is not balancing out the higher damage, higher range or heat differences.

Sug, on 23 June 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

snip

Sug, laser stats are not listed by tics. It's a pure damage value that you divide by your "hit" number. The damage number doesn't lie and say you did 5 damage when you really only did 3.

Using your stats you divide 12,292/3,734 to equal 3.29 average damage per medium laser hit.

The high number of uses is not as preposterous as you think. It's not unusual to fire each of your medium laser over 25 times in a match. Let's say he has 5 medium lasers that's 125 medium laser shots per match. That's only 50 games worth of stats.

I use a program called mech collect that crawls your weapon stat page to give you a break down of your weapon damage in each game (compares before and after). I can assure you that the damage numbers are working as you see them. The only issue is that accuracy on lasers is misleading.

Edited by Jman5, 24 June 2014 - 10:22 AM.

[Xyroc]

Lunatech, on 23 June 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

That's an oxymoronic statement.

simple to figure out what it means when you're not trying to be difficult.

-better but not so good that it completely stomps all competition 100% of the time.

-Clan weapons aren't supposed to be better in one way but worse in another ...

Edited by Beliall, 24 June 2014 - 09:54 AM.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

OP thread is a prime example why most of us (especially people like Jman5) are not qualified to be game designers.

Let's review the reasons why the above is true.

#1. Jman5 cherry picks examples that *MIGHT* support his claims inner sphere weapons are inferior to clan weapons and ignores all other precedents. Example of this -- Jman5 ignores inner sphere pulse lasers boasting half the beam duration of clan lasers. Inner sphere pulse lasers deal far higher DPS and this runs contrary to Jman's subjective and arbitrary beliefs. One might question Jman5's motives given his lackadaisical approach and stubborn refusal to acknowledge obvious facts that may run counter to his spiel.

#2. Laser damage, DPS and similar factors are far from being the only relevent variables present. Example. If a mech is taking cover behind a mountain. Let's say it runs into the open & fires its lasers. Then runs back behind cover. The 30% longer beam duration of clan lasers mean they will be exposed to enemy fire 30% longer than they would with an inner sphere equivalent to achieve full damage. This translates to clan mechs being out in the open & vulnerable for longer spans of time. It also implies clan laser beams are more visible and easier to trace back to their source. And also that clan lasers prevent clan mechs from torso twisting 30% longer than inner sphere mechs. These and more constitute status maluses for clan lasers that don't show up in Jman5's graphs. These drawbacks are of a the type individuals like Jman5 might never consider given they lack the forethought to consider the implications. But are issues a good game designer might need to visualize and address.

#3. There are other drawbacks associated with clan lasers. 30% longer beam duration makes it harder to avoid ghost heat in chain firing lasers. Clan pulse lasers are less efficient at targeting lights and fast moving mechs than inner sphere pulse lasers. This is true based on the observation its easier to hold a crosshair over a light mech moving 170 kph for .5 seconds with an inner sphere pulse laser than it is to hold a crosshair over a light mech moving 170 kph for 1.3 seconds with a clan pulse laser. The same can be said regarding clan lasers and inner sphere lasers. Theoretically, it should be easier to target a locust moving 170 kph with an inner sphere large laser with a duration of 1 second than with a clan large laser with a duration of 1.3 seconds.

Without going too deep into the issue, it becomes apparent that there are many drawbacks to clan technology people like Jman5 might never have thought of on their own, if someone didn't bother pointing it out to them.

It would be nice if people wouldn't be so hasty in jumping to conclusions. Its premature to say the least. .

.

[Atheus]

I Zeratul I, on 24 June 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

OP thread is a prime example why most of us (especially people like Jman5) are not qualified to be game designers.

Let's review the reasons why the above is true.

#1. Jman5 cherry picks examples that *MIGHT* support his claims inner sphere weapons are inferior to clan weapons and ignores all other precedents. Example of this -- Jman5 ignores inner sphere pulse lasers boasting half the beam duration of clan lasers. Inner sphere pulse lasers deal far higher DPS and this runs contrary to Jman's subjective and arbitrary beliefs. One might question Jman5's motives given his lackadaisical approach and stubborn refusal to acknowledge obvious facts that may run counter to his spiel.

#2. Laser damage, DPS and similar factors are far from being the only relevent variables present. Example. If a mech is taking cover behind a mountain. Let's say it runs into the open & fires its lasers. Then runs back behind cover. The 30% longer beam duration of clan lasers mean they will be exposed to enemy fire 30% longer than they would with an inner sphere equivalent to achieve full damage. This translates to clan mechs being out in the open & vulnerable for longer spans of time. It also implies clan laser beams are more visible and easier to trace back to their source. And also that clan lasers prevent clan mechs from torso twisting 30% longer than inner sphere mechs. These and more constitute status maluses for clan lasers that don't show up in Jman5's graphs. These drawbacks are of a the type individuals like Jman5 might never consider given they lack the forethought to consider the implications. But are issues a good game designer might need to visualize and address.

#3. There are other drawbacks associated with clan lasers. 30% longer beam duration makes it harder to avoid ghost heat in chain firing lasers. Clan pulse lasers are less efficient at targeting lights and fast moving mechs than inner sphere pulse lasers. This is true based on the observation its easier to hold a crosshair over a light mech moving 170 kph for .5 seconds with an inner sphere pulse laser than it is to hold a crosshair over a light mech moving 170 kph for 1.3 seconds with a clan pulse laser. The same can be said regarding clan lasers and inner sphere lasers. Theoretically, it should be easier to target a locust moving 170 kph with an inner sphere large laser with a duration of 1 second than with a clan large laser with a duration of 1.3 seconds.

Without going too deep into the issue, it becomes apparent that there are many drawbacks to clan technology people like Jman5 might never have thought of on their own, if someone didn't bother pointing it out to them.

It would be nice if people wouldn't be so hasty in jumping to conclusions. Its premature to say the least. .

.

If you're going to make an argument, you're going to have to pick a subset of the data to work with. Jman chose what is likely to be the most popular clan beam weapons to work with, and compared them to their nearest competitors to dispel a misconception that was being asserted frequently in other threads. Indeed there is no case to be made that a Clan medium or large pulse laser can beat an IS version in beam dps, but there is plenty more to be said on that subject too. That isn't going to be helpful to understanding the comparison between the 1 ton clan and IS laser options, though. If you broaden your argument to include too much data it just becomes noise.

Now on to your #2 point, it isn't always the beam duration that determines how long you are exposed to enemy fire. The limiting factor is quite likely to be the rate at which your mech can change speed/direction, or the nature of the barrier you are using for cover. In some cases, you may be right. I doubt that this is a substantial factor for heavies and assaults, though, unless you're trying to pop-tart with lasers.

For #3, ghost heat is a far smaller concern for clan, because you still have your small/medium lasers in one ghost heat group, and large in another, but the key difference is the medium laser is nearly as strong as the IS large laser. In that sense, you get to use up to 8 lasers at a time in a way that your IS competition just can't compete with. Give it a shot in a battlemaster or whatever if you want. that 270m range means you're skipping quite a lot of shots that a clan mech would be nailing. Ghost heat works out massively in favor of clan's weapons, because you can just about always design your lasers in a way that it is impossible to trigger ghost heat in the first place. I'm sure you're thinking about the Nova as I say this, but that's one special case, but you still get to decide how you're going to use all that firepower. If it were me, I'd just do this.

Edited by Atheus, 24 June 2014 - 11:36 AM.