110 replies to this topic

[Sug]

Atheus, on 23 June 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

If beams were not "meta" due to being underpowered in comparison to PPFLD, the answer is to buff beams, right?

Yes

Atheus, on 23 June 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

Well, that's what just happened.

No, the buff would be a shorter duration.

Atheus, on 23 June 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

You'll probably notice clan mechs in higher ELO games sporting some lasers investigating the very question of whether beams are still inferior now that they're higher damage, longer ranged versions of the now obsolete IS beams.

We'll have to wait til the next bracketed tournament to see if beams are worth using. The range on Elo matching is so wide that there's really no such thing as high Elo matches.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Deathlike, on 23 June 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

Congrats JHunch.

Now, when are you going to bring out some PPC Hunchies?



TBH, my argument would be less math, but moreso the duration of the shots. Shooting a med laser that is 1 second long is not that much different than 1.3 seconds long for the Clan ER Med. While you are required to spend more time at the target, shot selection will determine the success of landing more of the beam on the target. I'm actually surprised how much hang time and standing occurs from players (though, my medium Elo is whittling away slowly).

So, carry on Sir Hunchy.

You picked up on a valid point.....the effect of skill, both the pilot's and the enemies, on various weapons. As the Devs mentioned, a very skilled Clan mech Pilot may have an advantage but weakly skilled Clan Mech Pilots will perform worse in a clan mech. The end result in that scenario is actually balanced for the vast majority of players.

The reality is that keeping a 1.3 second pulse anywhere near where you want it to land it much harder than keeping a 1 second pulse on the same target. If you are very good at it, then you will see very little difference in the overall result but if you sucked at it in the first place, it can make lasers pretty much useless to you. Basically mileage may vary from player to player on clan mechs and in some, maybe alot of cases, people may very well end up preferring IS mechs over clan.

Heck I am already noticing a reduction in the amount of players actually playing Clan mechs in game. Matches went from 75% Clan to matches where there are only 4-5 clan mechs total. Now I know some of that is because Clan mechs aren't available to everyone yet but I think it is obvious that now that a week has gone by and the New has worn off, people are realizing they aren't the OP beasts they were expecting and are migrating back to their favorite IS mechs.

Note: I don't own a Clan mech so I am not posting this to defend my shinny new toys.

[Sug]

Viktor Drake, on 23 June 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

Heck I am already noticing a reduction in the amount of players actually playing Clan mechs in game.

Same. I hate to even say it but I haven't seen anything about Clan mechs that makes me want them besides the cool factor. They've never given me a problem in matches and almost everything about them seems weaker than IS mechs to me.

I think the less skilled players might do "better" in them because of the higher dps, damage spread, and that they can't die from losing one ST, but the more skill players will be back to poptarting pinpoint damage soon enough.

Edited by Sug, 23 June 2014 - 11:40 AM.

[East Indy]

Atheus, on 23 June 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Not sure what you're talking about, but the overall dps of the clan ER large is 12% higher than IS large.

I'm talking about what Jman's actually referring to, which is damage per duration, not damage per total cycle.

Clan ER large laser: 11.25 damage/1.5 seconds = 7.5 DPS
Inner Sphere large laser: 9 damage/1.0 seconds = 9 DPS

[Roland]

The problem currently is that inner sphere medium and small lasers were nerfed way back in closed beta, prior to hit detection fixes, when the Hunchback 4P was totally dominant compared to everything else (if you can believe it).

However, after hit detection was fixed, and other weapons became dominant, those nerfs to the medium and small lasers were never reviewed and reset to their prior stats. This has always been a major detriment to brawling builds, which traditionally would have used those weapons heavily. It also hurts very light mechs by weakening the weapons they depend upon.

This was pointed out numerous times, but those concerns were never addressed.

So, as things stand now, the Clan medium and small lasers are significantly better than their IS counterparts, as the clan ones are using their original battletech stats for heat and damage, while the IS ones are using nerfed values.

[Atheus]

East Indy, on 23 June 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

I'm talking about what Jman's actually referring to, which is damage per duration, not damage per total cycle.

Clan ER large laser: 11.25 damage/1.5 seconds = 7.5 DPS
Inner Sphere large laser: 9 damage/1.0 seconds = 9 DPS

Ah yeah. So you're saying it would be appropriate if the medium and small lasers similarly had lower beam dps than the IS variants. It's a bit of a moot point, since you're asking for a balancing aspect that still leaves the clan lasers with a pretty huge pile of advantages, whether it's the double range, better heat efficiency, lighter weight, smaller space. Even if you nerf the C-ERML back to have a 1.5 second beam, it still obliterates both the IS ML and LL in usability.

[East Indy]

Atheus, on 23 June 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Even if you nerf the C-ERML back to have a 1.5 second beam, it still obliterates both the IS ML and LL in usability.

Perhaps, though I'd still want to know if those exceptions were intentional (PGI might have held back to see how things played out).

Edited by East Indy, 23 June 2014 - 12:34 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sug, on 23 June 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

Same. I hate to even say it but I haven't seen anything about Clan mechs that makes me want them besides the cool factor. They've never given me a problem in matches and almost everything about them seems weaker than IS mechs to me.

I think the less skilled players might do "better" in them because of the higher dps, damage spread, and that they can't die from losing one ST, but the more skill players will be back to poptarting pinpoint damage soon enough.

I like the Summoner.

Not because it is amazing, but I simply have always liked Summoners. But it is basically a big Medium, not some heavy avatar of doom.

[Atheus]

Sug, on 23 June 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Atheus: If beams were not "meta" due to being underpowered in comparison to PPFLD, the answer is to buff beams, right?

Yes

Atheus: Well, that's what just happened.

No, the buff would be a shorter duration.

Seriously, is there anything that other people can say that you don't disagree with? They buffed literally EVERYTHING except beam duration, but it's not a buff because beam duration isn't also shorter? You really don't care if you're taken seriously, do you?

Edited by Atheus, 23 June 2014 - 01:18 PM.

[Antonio]

What is the point of comparing Clan weapons to IS weapons? There is no mixed tech. If you do a straight comparison C-Gauss and C-ERPPC are also better. The idea is that it's supposed to be balanced by the fact that you can only mount them on clan mechs which have fixed engines, structure slots, upgrades, etc.

[Sug]

Atheus, on 23 June 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

Seriously, is there anything that other people can say that you don't disagree with? They buffed literally EVERYTHING except beam duration, but it's not a buff because beam duration isn't also shorter? You really don't care if you're taken seriously, do you?

What don't you get? The increased beam durations kill almost any other buff Clan beams got. Stop adding up columns in a spreadsheet and think practically.

[Atheus]

Sug, on 23 June 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

What don't you get? The increased beam durations kill almost any other buff Clan beams got. Stop adding up columns in a spreadsheet and think practically.

LOL... funny because my thought toward you is START adding up columns in a spreadsheet and think practically!

[Mcgral18]

Atheus, on 23 June 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

LOL... funny because my thought toward you is START adding up columns in a spreadsheet and think practically!

Tell me what you see in a spreadsheet with a cUAC?

Now tell me in game how it actually plays out?

Spreadsheets don't tell the whole story of a weapon.

[Sephlock]

Verkhne, on 23 June 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

The long beam times are also a defensive drawback as they allow for less torso twisting, better aim versus Clan mechs. I imagine PGI does account for it however.

Also, more friendly fire .

In fact, maybe that's why that one guy whose thread got locked noticed lower income in his Clan mechs .

[Atheus]

Mcgral18, on 23 June 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

Tell me what you see in a spreadsheet with a cUAC?

Now tell me in game how it actually plays out?

Spreadsheets don't tell the whole story of a weapon.

I was able to see how C-UAC's play out in game only because I saw some videos. You see you don't get to try them out yet unless you pay real cash. I found some videos of a guy with the C-UAC, though, and sure enough most of the people he shot at with a pair of UAC/20 double tap volleys mixed in with the lasers he was also packing blew up instantly more often than not. He was a pretty good player, though. I watched maybe 5 or so matches where he averaged about 1000 damage and 4-8 kills.

I know it sounds like a BS anecdote, but this one is actually true. Do I think it confirms C-UAC/20 is throwing the balance off completely? No, but it confirms that it can do exactly what I thin it can do, which is 40 damage in 1 second with 1 weapon.

[Sug]

Atheus, on 23 June 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

LOL... funny because my thought toward you is START adding up columns in a spreadsheet and think practically!

If i'm looking at the CLL vs the IS LL I see minor, minor things. Tonnage/cooldown/slots/weight, whatever. A 10% increase to DPS/HPS for the Clan which doesn't mater because dps doesn't rule this game. Clan has almost double the range but on what map are you engaging someone at 800m that isn't some nub out in the open about to die anyways? Can't poptart very well because of the duration.

Since they both do damage over time in ticks of damage I see:

IS Large Laser: 9 damage with a 1 sec duration, every .1 seconds it does .9 damage. (10 x .9 = 9)

Clan ER Large Laser: 11.25 damage with a 1.5 sec duration. every .1 second it does .75 damage ( 15 x .75 = 11.25)
If it did .9 damage every .1 sec like the IS LL it should do 13.5 damage. ( 15 x .9)

Fast PP FLD rules this game. No one was boating beams in the last tournament because of this. Beams are inferior to ballistics because of their duration. Clan beams have a greater duration, making them balanced against IS beams but since IS beams are crap anyways, Clan beams can also be considered crap.

They added duration to Clan ballistics making them like beam weapons, making them inferior to IS weapons.

By the time some Clanner with beams hits me in 4 locations with 80% of his weapon damage i'll be back behind cover after putting 100% of my damage in one location using my IS ballistics.

Maybe it's just my playstyle but I don't see Clan tech as an upgrade and I've had zero trouble going 1v1 with any clan mech even if they're in a different weight bracket.

Again, I can't wait for them to have another bracketed tournament to see what people are using in actual competition.

Edited by Sug, 23 June 2014 - 03:53 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Atheus, on 23 June 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

I was able to see how C-UAC's play out in game only because I saw some videos. You see you don't get to try them out yet unless you pay real cash. I found some videos of a guy with the C-UAC, though, and sure enough most of the people he shot at with a pair of UAC/20 double tap volleys mixed in with the lasers he was also packing blew up instantly more often than not. He was a pretty good player, though. I watched maybe 5 or so matches where he averaged about 1000 damage and 4-8 kills.

I know it sounds like a BS anecdote, but this one is actually true. Do I think it confirms C-UAC/20 is throwing the balance off completely? No, but it confirms that it can do exactly what I thin it can do, which is 40 damage in 1 second with 1 weapon.

I think you mean it deals 10 shells each doing 4 damage. Which can be spread. Over a second.

And it's a long enough burst, anything fast won't take the full damage. Slow mechs will take the full 40, but over 2-4 components.

In almost every situation, the isAC20 is better, since it deals a guaranteed 20 damage to the location, with the potential to deal 29 damage with a 3 slot critical hit.

Edited by Mcgral18, 23 June 2014 - 03:52 PM.

[Koniving]

In response to the original post.
It's not quite as clear cut, but...
For one beam, yes the graph is true.
What about for two beams back to back?

ML: 5 damage in 1 second beam, fire again 3 seconds after the beam ends, fire in 1 second beam again. So 10 damage in 5 seconds.
C-ER ML: 7 damage in 1.3 seconds. Then 3 seconds later after the beam ends, fire 1.3 second beam again. So 14 damage in 5.6 seconds.

Now, what if the beam time was 1.5 seconds.
ML: 5 damage in 1 second beam, fire again 3 seconds after the beam ends, fire in 1 second beam again. So 10 damage in 5 seconds.
C-ER ML: 7 damage in 1.5 seconds. Then 3 seconds later after the beam ends, fire 1.5 second beam again. So 14 damage in 6 seconds.

However.. I personally don't have an issue with the damage, even if the 1.5 seconds with a standardized small and large versions is more preferable (as it'd give some actual value to the pulse lasers that are pretty worthless).

My own issue is that the Clan ER ML has a canon value of 5 heat.
The Inner Sphere has a value of 4 heat, but the canon value is 3 heat.
Make the IS ML 3 heat, the SL 2 heat, the SPL 2.4 heat, and the Clan's damage lead won't matter as it comes with a heat lead, while the IS mechs stop shutting down from doing much less "pew."

Edited by Koniving, 23 June 2014 - 04:04 PM.

[Atheus]

Mcgral18, on 23 June 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

I think you mean it deals 10 shells each doing 4 damage. Which can be spread. Over a second.

And it's a long enough burst, anything fast won't take the full damage. Slow mechs will take the full 40, but over 2-4 components.

In almost every situation, the isAC20 is better, since it deals a guaranteed 20 damage to the location, with the potential to deal 29 damage with a 3 slot critical hit.

No, I said exactly what I mean. It does 40 damage in 1 second, with one weapon. I don't give a **** that it's "spread out",

it's.40.*******.damage.with.one.weapon

4 seconds later it does another 40 damage.

On the other side is the other UAC/20 which is doing the exact same thing.

BABABABABABABABABABA 80 damage
3 seconds...
BABABABABABABABABABA 80 damage
plus lasers

In haiku form:

If you blink but once
then you will probably miss
the hopeless mech die

[Vassago Rain]

This was always obvious to most people, but now I have a forum math link I can throw at math challenged players.