394 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Roadbeer, on 23 June 2014 - 11:21 PM, said:

You say that, but...

Sorry for it being too late for you.



I'll still be around to complain.

[Sandpit]

Cimarb, on 24 June 2014 - 07:33 AM, said:

You know, for such an elitist Clanner, you sure do use a LOT of contractions....


It is great to have you back, Sand. Hope you stay for a while! (Seriously)

Thank you sir,
Still skeptical but at least I can play with friends now regardless of how many we have.

I still think the solution to 11mans is just allow solo players to opt into the group queue if they want. I think PGI, based on previous threads on the subject, is still underestimating the number of solo players who WANT to play alongside groups in that manner. It would also improve MM times for groups overall.

If a 5man and 6man get lumped together on a team they still need that 12th man or MM will have to extend and wait for a group size(s) that will fill that gap. It's something to consider as a solution to that particular problem

Deathlike, on 24 June 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

Sorry for it being too late for you.



I'll still be around to complain.

A few of us space back pirates will keep working on him

[Deathlike]

Merchant, on 24 June 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Yes they are, you can walk straight off a Canyon cliff and take more then 1 second to fall even in a 100 ton Mech.

Me, I like to go at an angle and slide down, take less damage that way if any at all.

The ones who may be in trouble are the Lights with no JJs (Locust, Commando, Raven, players who forget they have JJs) that just 'sail' right off.

I prefer to use my earlier "dropping in Frozen City theta" example. People may actually refuse to drop into the area around theta to reinforce the group if only in fear of taking significant leg damage.

Also applies to a late game scenario where you need to jump down to fight the last mech(s) @ theta... after having taken a beating for most of the early part of the match.

Edited by Deathlike, 24 June 2014 - 12:26 PM.

[Cimarb]

Sandpit, on 24 June 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Thank you sir,
Still skeptical but at least I can play with friends now regardless of how many we have.

I still think the solution to 11mans is just allow solo players to opt into the group queue if they want. I think PGI, based on previous threads on the subject, is still underestimating the number of solo players who WANT to play alongside groups in that manner. It would also improve MM times for groups overall.

If a 5man and 6man get lumped together on a team they still need that 12th man or MM will have to extend and wait for a group size(s) that will fill that gap. It's something to consider as a solution to that particular problem

Completely agree. I have been an advocate of that solo "opt in" since the topic came up.

Deathlike, on 24 June 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

I prefer to use my earlier "dropping in Frozen City theta" example. People may actually refuse to drop into the area around theta to reinforce the group if only in fear of taking significant leg damage.

Also applies to a late game scenario where you need to jump down to fight the last mech(s) @ theta... after having taken a beating for most of the early part of the match.

Those types of decisions are important, though. You shouldn't be able to jump off a cliff like that without taking damage. You should have to weigh the pros and cons of doing a cliff jump just like you do a ridge push - is the quick attack worth the possibly quicker death?

[Deathlike]

Cimarb, on 24 June 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Those types of decisions are important, though. You shouldn't be able to jump off a cliff like that without taking damage. You should have to weigh the pros and cons of doing a cliff jump just like you do a ridge push - is the quick attack worth the possibly quicker death?

While I definitely agree that mechs SHOULD take damage when dropping down (under certain circumstances), you have to think a little more globally about it.

If the mech I'm running has JJs (which I generally have), this is a non-issue. If the mech ISN'T running one, then I'd pause to think about that.

For any mech that DOES NOT have JJs, this becomes a problem. You could be running an Atlas, Banshee, Stalker, Battlemaster, or Awesome... and have to make a relatively important decision... compared to someone running a Highlander or Victor. It becomes a handicap for those mechs that don't have JJs. Do you think that's entirely fair? Should everyone just ditch their non-JJ mechs for the JJ equivalent just for this feature? Something has to give here.

I don't like the idea that someone in an Atlas D-DC refusing to jump down, even if they would possibly change the outcome of a match, where I'd probably want a Victor or Highlander instead because they are more likely to take the plunge... that's not ideal because it changes how people think and approach stuff. Do you see what I'm getting at?

[Bilbo]

Deathlike, on 24 June 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

While I definitely agree that mechs SHOULD take damage when dropping down (under certain circumstances), you have to think a little more globally about it.

If the mech I'm running has JJs (which I generally have), this is a non-issue. If the mech ISN'T running one, then I'd pause to think about that.

For any mech that DOES NOT have JJs, this becomes a problem. You could be running an Atlas, Banshee, Stalker, Battlemaster, or Awesome... and have to make a relatively important decision... compared to someone running a Highlander or Victor. It becomes a handicap for those mechs that don't have JJs. Do you think that's entirely fair? Should everyone just ditch their non-JJ mechs for the JJ equivalent just for this feature? Something has to give here.

I don't like the idea that someone in an Atlas D-DC refusing to jump down, even if they would possibly change the outcome of a match, where I'd probably want a Victor or Highlander instead because they are more likely to take the plunge... that's not ideal because it changes how people think and approach stuff. Do you see what I'm getting at?

Except that there are two ways to get down there. While certainly not instant it really wouldn't take that long to get there in support. For that matter support could be provided from the ridge top itself.

[RedDragon]

Deathlike, on 24 June 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

While I definitely agree that mechs SHOULD take damage when dropping down (under certain circumstances), you have to think a little more globally about it.

If the mech I'm running has JJs (which I generally have), this is a non-issue. If the mech ISN'T running one, then I'd pause to think about that.

For any mech that DOES NOT have JJs, this becomes a problem. You could be running an Atlas, Banshee, Stalker, Battlemaster, or Awesome... and have to make a relatively important decision... compared to someone running a Highlander or Victor. It becomes a handicap for those mechs that don't have JJs. Do you think that's entirely fair? Should everyone just ditch their non-JJ mechs for the JJ equivalent just for this feature? Something has to give here.

I don't like the idea that someone in an Atlas D-DC refusing to jump down, even if they would possibly change the outcome of a match, where I'd probably want a Victor or Highlander instead because they are more likely to take the plunge... that's not ideal because it changes how people think and approach stuff. Do you see what I'm getting at?

But if that Victor jumps down there and suddenly faces an Atlas, you'd rather have an Atlas yourself because the Victor sacrifices vital wight for its JJ (provided JJs are fixed and you actually have to pack some more than one).
Another scenario: You are getting capped and wish that that Atlas on your team was a light or medium mech because they are faster.

It all comes down to sacrificing one trait for another. It's not unfair that an Atlas can't jump when it can pack a lot more weapons/heat sinks/a larger engine instead. You will always be in situations where you wish you had other weapons/mechs in your team. That's the downside of choice, which on the other hand makes the game interesting in the first place.

[Demuder]

Every solo player that ever asked for an option for a solo only queue on these forums was ridiculed by the premade crowd as a "whiner", "skilless kiddie who can't play to win", "untisocial pug who doesn't want to make new friends".

Suddenly, the same crowd is asking for an option to opt out of the bigger group queues. The irony of this will resound in the ages.

[Especialmente]

Awesome! I was so sick of being surrounded and killed by 8 or 10 premades! Now the big pre made gangs finally have a place to hang. Finally a fair fight! THANK YOU!

[Deathlike]

Bilbo, on 24 June 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

Except that there are two ways to get down there. While certainly not instant it really wouldn't take that long to get there in support. For that matter support could be provided from the ridge top itself.

While there are usually multiple ways to get down to a location, occasionally you need that rush NOW (aka immediately). Some people may want to trek the long way, which is fine, but understand that if/when that need arises, a choice has to be made... occasionally to win a match. Risk/reward doesn't always exist in this game, which is generally why people shy away from doing whatever it takes to win. Sometimes the 5-10 seconds you spend "taking a safer route" just to assist your teammate has the potential to get teammate killed. I'm not saying every scenario is like that, but these things do occur in a match.

RedDragon, on 24 June 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

But if that Victor jumps down there and suddenly faces an Atlas, you'd rather have an Atlas yourself because the Victor sacrifices vital wight for its JJ (provided JJs are fixed and you actually have to pack some more than one).
Another scenario: You are getting capped and wish that that Atlas on your team was a light or medium mech because they are faster.

It all comes down to sacrificing one trait for another. It's not unfair that an Atlas can't jump when it can pack a lot more weapons/heat sinks/a larger engine instead. You will always be in situations where you wish you had other weapons/mechs in your team. That's the downside of choice, which on the other hand makes the game interesting in the first place.

TBH, I'd want a competent Victor than a competent Atlas... at least with the current meta these days (pretty much mechs with JJs are generally more valuable).

Mobility is everything... imaging trying to RTB with an Atlas vs a Victor (or a Highlander for that matter). Even the ECM Cicada has a few issues trying to get where it needs to go on Canyon compared to the Jenner and Firestarter.

The devil is in the details.

Edited by Deathlike, 24 June 2014 - 01:38 PM.

[Egomane]

Demuder, on 24 June 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

Every solo player that ever asked for an option for a solo only queue on these forums was ridiculed by the premade crowd as a "whiner", "skilless kiddie who can't play to win", "untisocial pug who doesn't want to make new friends".

Suddenly, the same crowd is asking for an option to opt out of the bigger group queues. The irony of this will resound in the ages.

Please show me the post where I ever ridiculed another player for his wish to not play with premades. As far as I remember I always defended them, as their playstyle is as valid as that of those who want to play in teams. I don't want either to be punished for their choice.

Despite that I'm in favor of an opt-in for single players to participate in the team queue and for an opt-out of 2-4 mans from the same. I just don't want me and my lance mates to be a hindrance for the rest of the team and I don't want to be pushed into a playstyle that I absolutly do not like. When I'm with my friends we want to have fun. From all that I have seen, 12-man team drops are a far to serious playstyle to be enjoyable for me or my friends. Again... we are as uncoordinated as they can get. We don't call targets, we don't concentrate fire and it's absolutly possible that we scatter to the four winds the moment the match starts.

Would you want players like us competing against you when you drop in 12-man? If yes: Why?
Would you want players like us on your team when you drop against a 12-man? Again... if the answer is yes: why?

Edited by Egomane, 24 June 2014 - 01:42 PM.

[Demuder]

Egomane, on 24 June 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

Please show me the post where I ever ridiculed another player for his wish to not play with premades. As far as I remember I always defended them, as their playstyle is as valid as that of those who want to play in teams. I don't want either to be punished for their choice.

*snipped for aesthetics*

Would you want players like us competing against you when you drop in 12-man? If yes: Why?
Would you want players like us on your team when you drop against a 12-man? Again... if the answer is yes: why?

You don't have to take my comment personally, I never said that "every premade player ridiculed", I used the "premade crowd" as a general term. I do remember several of your posts, and I also remember several other premade players that were in favor of or at least supportive of separate queues. But I am sure you remember the spiteful posts of many people against solo players asking for a solo queue, and those were the ones I was referring to.

I am sorry for any misplaced offense.

Of course, the even bigger irony is that solo players are still not getting their option for a solo queue.

[RedDragon]

Deathlike, on 24 June 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

TBH, I'd want a competent Victor than a competent Atlas... at least with the current meta these days (pretty much mechs with JJs are generally more valuable).

Mobility is everything... imaging trying to RTB with an Atlas vs a Victor (or a Highlander for that matter). Even the ECM Cicada has a few issues trying to get where it needs to go on Canyon compared to the Jenner and Firestarter.

The devil is in the details.

Yep, the devil is in the details. That's why it is good to have to actually consider taking JJs or not. That a Victor is often the better choice is because of the current meta. In a "perfect world" those 4 tons a Victor has to dedicate to its JJs would mean its death in an infight with a mech of its weight class without JJs. And this is where we should get to: JJs should provide an advantage in mobility but they shouldn't make you a better fighter. Otherwise they are imbalanced because of the reasons you named.
There should be choices and those should be meaningful, i.e. do I take maximum fire power? Or do I go for mobility?

[Egomane]

Demuder, on 24 June 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

You don't have to take my comment personally, I never said that "every premade player ridiculed", I used the "premade crowd" as a general term.

Yes you did. But I am part of this crowd in this thread. I do want an option to opt out of the premade queue. So with your general attack you also hit me.

I just wanted to showcase that not everything is simply black or white. Your post made the perfect target for that.

[Wintersdark]

Cimarb, on 24 June 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

It's hurting people that think it's ok to jump off of cliffs in 100-ton mechs. I happen to be one of them that does it currently, but welcome the change, as it shouldn't be ok to do that.

Shouldn't be ok, from a "logic and realism" standpoint, but not necessarily from a game balance standpoint.

As things are, Jump Jets are extremely valuable from a mobility viewpoint. This is amplified by our map design and movement rules - after all, mechs equally should be able to climb steeper slopes, being bipedal and in many cases even having hands.

But this change does nothing but widens the gap between Jump and Non-Jump mechs, in essence making the jump jets an even better deal than previously.

Consider, before the change, you'd be comparing a Victor to a, say, Stalker, and asking if the Jump Jet(s) where worth the cost in tonnage.

That decision becomes easier with this change, because it doesn't hurt JJ mechs but does further endanger non JJ mechs.

Deathlike, on 24 June 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

I don't like the idea that someone in an Atlas D-DC refusing to jump down, even if they would possibly change the outcome of a match, where I'd probably want a Victor or Highlander instead because they are more likely to take the plunge... that's not ideal because it changes how people think and approach stuff. Do you see what I'm getting at?

This is it. As it stands, given out map design and movement rules, non jumping mechs are already at an enormous disadvantage in mobility on almost every map. This just makes that worse, so you've got players unable to assist in combats because their mobility has been even more curtailed without any gain.

This change makes the Atlas - already unable to climb back out of whatever hole he falls into - unwilling to fall into the hole in the first place. Thus, this nerf, ostensibly a JJ nerf, is actually nerfing non-jumping mechs the most... and we're already in a place where jumping mechs have a substantial advantage.

[Wintersdark]

RedDragon, on 24 June 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

Yep, the devil is in the details. That's why it is good to have to actually consider taking JJs or not. That a Victor is often the better choice is because of the current meta. In a "perfect world" those 4 tons a Victor has to dedicate to its JJs would mean its death in an infight with a mech of its weight class without JJs. And this is where we should get to: JJs should provide an advantage in mobility but they shouldn't make you a better fighter. Otherwise they are imbalanced because of the reasons you named.
There should be choices and those should be meaningful, i.e. do I take maximum fire power? Or do I go for mobility?

Any advantage in mobility inherently makes you a better fighter, because mobility is an important aspect of combat.

The reality is the Perfect World you imagine above will never happen, because quite frankly the mobility gains from Jump Jets are (and will remain, no matter how they're changed) as much more valuable than a tiny amount of tonnage, particularly when you're looking at such a small amount of tonnage, even on mechs like a Victor.

We'd need substantial changes to the game environment, not balancing changes to Jump Jets, to fix that.

[Vyrus]

Ok well the test was great and i like that we are getting to test more things as they arrive to the game. I play solo quite a lot and I like this change to the match maker but I get how others will not. As far as the targeting comp and the command console goes I really like them. It make long range direct fire a threat again. This will help to balance the LRM swarm that has been happening. I was able to kill a LRM boat from beyond a 1000m with C ER LL. Before this would have been hard so I think over all this build is an improvement. Now if COM WAR can be this good we will really have out standing game.

[Cimarb]

Deathlike, on 24 June 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

While I definitely agree that mechs SHOULD take damage when dropping down (under certain circumstances), you have to think a little more globally about it.

If the mech I'm running has JJs (which I generally have), this is a non-issue. If the mech ISN'T running one, then I'd pause to think about that.

For any mech that DOES NOT have JJs, this becomes a problem. You could be running an Atlas, Banshee, Stalker, Battlemaster, or Awesome... and have to make a relatively important decision... compared to someone running a Highlander or Victor. It becomes a handicap for those mechs that don't have JJs. Do you think that's entirely fair? Should everyone just ditch their non-JJ mechs for the JJ equivalent just for this feature? Something has to give here.

I don't like the idea that someone in an Atlas D-DC refusing to jump down, even if they would possibly change the outcome of a match, where I'd probably want a Victor or Highlander instead because they are more likely to take the plunge... that's not ideal because it changes how people think and approach stuff. Do you see what I'm getting at?

I get your meaning - and those of Wintersdark - but look at it this way: JJs are an advantage, just like high-mounted weapons, arms, and many other things. It is very true that JJs are a bit too much of an advantage in general, but they are working on fixing that.

Get on PT (if you aren't already) and give Russ the feedback about the non-JJ mechs. I can tell you from the few matches I just did in a Dire Wolf that this falling thing isn't an issue for it. I haven't tried a Locust, which I should, but probably won't. I have also tried a Timber Wolf and Nova, both of which have no problem with jumping safely, but push the spacebar for too long and it hurts.

[Ayrmoon]

Question from a new player concerning MatchMaker (MM). I don't know about nor have I played 4v4 or any other type of match. I've only experienced 12v12 in public play. But I would like to know if MM does these two things:

1. Separate the pilots into teams by experience? - Since the public matches will now be by class. Shouldn't each team have roughly the same experience, per side per weight class, to keep them even?

2. Separate the Mechs by role? - Most light Mechs for example are scouts and/or "hit and run" fighters. But my Kit Fox, KFX-D is really a long range fighter. It's weapons load is mostly LRM's. Couldn't this one little chance in a light Mech effect the tactics (and therefore the outcome) of a match?

Item number two may be to much for the MM to take into account? But Item one should be fairly easy to include as you already keep track of how may matches a pilot has been in. Yes, the number of matches will not always indicate how well a pilot does. But still, the pilot who has 2000 matches is probably going to have an edge over a pilot with only 200 matches.

Something to consider maybe? What do you think?

Have fun and Good Hunting ;-)

[SinisterSocks]

Been trying to run a few matches. So far I am still seeing Team rolls. 12-2 the last match. I dont know if that was a group thing or just really bad playing.

Also I am pretty disappointed in the community. I would think all of you guys would be on here and maybe most of you are but the numbers are really low. (search is taking forever) You guys that didnt get into the test have no room to complain about anything. We see PGI trying and giving us this chance but we have to use it.