394 replies to this topic

[AdamBaines]

Roland, on 23 June 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

I am cautiously optimistic, for the first time in a very long while.

Some part of me suspects this is just gonna enrage me again, but if it does work, I will offer my sincere thanks.

What could enrage you? A lot of what your asking for is here. Its in a Public test (although, again on too short of notice) so we can see how it works and they can tweek it if it goes to crap under larger load.

Maybe its just a case of PGI PTSD? ;-)

[Mystere]

I love being underestimated. I just become even deadlier that way. As such, put in than button for solo players!

[WarHippy]

Cimarb, on 23 June 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

Read the days and weeks of garbage being flung at Russ before you pass judgement, he made a joke - jab at Road that it was - but it was after a long barrage of jabs and direct attacks against him. Don't just look at a snipped conversation and make judgement next time.

I have followed along with the back and forth between those two. Russ has a long history of verbal diarrhea that causes more problems than is needed. Did Roadbeer do some mud throwing? Sure, but the difference is that Road is a player/customer that is frustrated, and Russ is the face of a company acting like an ass instead of like a professional. I worked in service for years and I got frustrated with customers as well, but I would never treat them or act like Russ if I wanted to keep my job.

Cimarb, on 23 June 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

I think solo and 2-4 player groups should be able to choose which queue to be in, while 5+ should be in group-only queue. That would be the best compromise for all.

I can agree with this.

[Redshift2k5]

[TKSax]

MuonNeutrino, on 23 June 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

I am perfectly happy to lose *if the game was enjoyable!* The problem is, playing against teams full of meta in the hands of competitive players is just about the exact opposite of enjoyable. If you run up to my rainbow-build CTF-2X in a jagermech with an ac10 and some SRMs and explode me, I will stand back and laugh.

How often do you think you will run up against a full competitive 12 man??? There aren't that many left. I can almost guarantee when this is implemented you will see far more 12 mans from house-marik.net who are there to do the same thing you are, have a good time, most of the competitive teame are using private matches for practicing, and will probably continues to do so since they really do not get better by playing in the pug que.

[Jman5]

MuonNeutrino, on 23 June 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

This will be true for some people, but not all. What about people like me and my buddy? Both of us play mostly solo or with each other (i.e. not a 'premade') and have a casual mindset rather than a competitive one, but have high elo anyway simply because we're OK at the game. Neither of us is equal to the top competitive players, but our elo is high enough that we drop into games with them all the time. What are we supposed to do, never play with each other? Because I can guarantee you that if our pair ends up in the groups queue, at our elo we're going to be matched up with a lot of top competitive players in metabuilds. We're OK, but we're not *that* good. And more to the point, neither us nor them want us there, because we're *not* competitive players. We find fun in playing weird mechs and doing silly things. The competitive players don't want our sub-optimal mechs in their games, and we don't want their meta mechs in ours. Are we simply no longer allowed to play grouped just because our elo happens to approach that of the competitive players?

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

If you're good enough at the game that you can match against try-hards while playing casually, it would be unfair to put you against people who are casual but cannot match against try-hards.

Let's say that your Elo brings you and your buddy to meta try-hard ville and as you say you guys are simply not good enough to be there. Your presence brings down the team because you don't play the right mechs, or you're just goofing off so you don't play well, or whatever.

Well relatively quickly, your poor play (no offense), is going to be the deciding factor in losing enough games that your Elo will naturally bring you and your buddy away from those players into whatever appropriate level you belong.

One final note about meta builds and what-have-you. You don't need a meta mech to carry your weight even at a competitive level. You just need to play well while understanding the strengths and weaknesses of your builds. As long as you're doing that consistently in your matches, you're in the right place.

Oh, one more thing. I think a lot of people underestimate just how many premades they play with right now. I will very often see 2-3 premades on each team. So in this regard it's not going to change a whole lot. The biggest difference will be those larger groups, but it's up in the air how many of those will be out there at any one time.

[TygerLily]

P4riah1, on 23 June 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

ELO is not everything. And having skill doesn't automatically mean you have the mindset of a competitive player. Me and my brother run in a pair all the time, and we don't PUGstomp or dominate anything. A lone pair just doesn't do that. But simply because we are fairly decent at video games, our ELO has crept fairly high over thousands of games. We get matched against the comp players constantly despite not being nearly as good as they are, because the ELO pool is too small.

I dont care about ELO, kill death ratio, even winning matches. I just want to have fun. Playing contantly against the competitive players is not fun. My options for avoiding them are shrinking.

Makes sense but even if you separate the queues, you're going to see people abuse it and bring their competitive play to the casual queue and laugh the whole time. In WOW, PVP is on a separate server...but if a troll can PVP the RP server whenever he wants? Ugh...

MuonNeutrino, on 23 June 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

This is a perfectly reasonable thing to say, coming from a *competitive* mindset. It is literally meaningless coming from a casual one. Some people *simply have other fish to fry!* Not all of us have the be-all end-all objective in this game of becoming the absolute best players possible. Some of us just want to screw around and have fun.

I'm in both camps! Some nights I just want to **** around...other nights I'm ready to go A-game.

Jman5, on 23 June 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

Why do people assume that they are going to be placed against high-Elo competitive teams with their casual group? You will be sorted based on your premade's average Elo. If it's rocky at first that is likely because your Elo was artificially inflated by creaming lone wolves with your own premade. However, it will even out as you win/lose matches.

I get the sneaking suspicion when I read about people who want to match against other casuals that is code for: "I don't want to face other premades at my skill level. I want to face below average lone wolves so that I can feel like a winner." If your Elo is at casual level you will be matched against other casual premades. That is the whole point of having an Elo system in place; To match you against people around your skill.

This is going to be hilariously similar to what happened when they opened up the game to allow 8-mans. Everyone said they wanted it. That they were tired of beating up noobs in the pug queue. Then it came out and it quickly became a ghost town because these people had to suddenly try. So many of these blow-hards are not going to want to transition from 4-man to 5-man because they secretly just want to beat up lone wolves. Instead it will just be two 4-mans sync dropping.

YUP! So long as Elo does this we should be in good shape. Personally, I'm kind of over CW...I just want to log on every night and have equal matches...

Edited by TygerLily, 23 June 2014 - 01:18 PM.

[MagicM0E]

Some interesting changes coming.

Will be nice to drop with a few more of the guys at the same time and the way you've proposed it seems like a fair compromise.

I particularly like the changes to the JJ's as this will (hopefully) reduce the amount of meta 'pop tarts' we see.

M0E

[Roland]

AdamBaines, on 23 June 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

What could enrage you? A lot of what your asking for is here. Its in a Public test (although, again on too short of notice) so we can see how it works and they can tweek it if it goes to crap under larger load.

Maybe its just a case of PGI PTSD? ;-)

Honestly, I don't know.. As I said, I'm cautiously optimistic.

But you need to understand, I was once a huge supporter of PGI, for years... Your heart can only be broken so many times before you get real jaded.

Regardless, if my friends and I can play together easily again, it will go a very long way towards repairing all of the bad blood, because that was the one thing which enraged me more than everything else combined.

[Sky Hawk]

TygerLily, on 23 June 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

According to Paul,

• Out of all matches launched, 84% are solo launches.
  
• 16% are group launches. (We omitted our 12-mans because they will be dealt with separately)
  
• Of that 16%, 8% are 2-man groups, 4% are 3-man groups and 4% are 4-man groups.

I would like see some newer numbers. The so much changed here since then... We playing not even in the same year! I think, this datas are almost useless.. Sadly..

I really hope, Paul give as some newer numbers soon... Really!

Edited by Sky Hawk, 23 June 2014 - 01:19 PM.

[Cimarb]

WarHippy, on 23 June 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

I have followed along with the back and forth between those two. Russ has a long history of verbal diarrhea that causes more problems than is needed. Did Roadbeer do some mud throwing? Sure, but the difference is that Road is a player/customer that is frustrated, and Russ is the face of a company acting like an ass instead of like a professional. I worked in service for years and I got frustrated with customers as well, but I would never treat them or act like Russ if I wanted to keep my job.

I have followed both as well and see it completely differently, but that is how opinion works.

I have worked in customer service for years and STILL work in the field, and after reading Russ try to make light of their (communal, not just Road) attacks over and over again, I applauded his retorts, even though I knew they were not exactly professional. It is extremely frustrating to not be able to tell someone what you think about their horrible attitudes, especially on social media where 2/3 people think the internet revolves around their hashtag.

[Bounty Dogg]

Ghost Badger, on 23 June 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

That's fair. I see no reason why a 2-3 man shouldn't be able to choose to stay in the solo pug queue. 4-mans, I think, should move up. If you're rolling a full lance, play with the big kids.

One of the ideas I liked, once a couple thousand posts ago, was a 4-8 and/or 12-man queue. Keep everyone in 1-3 mans elsewhere...and in the other queue fill in on each team with only 2 groups (ie 4 and 8, 5 and 7, 6 and 6, or 12.)

Not chiming in on much here till I can try it, but I can field the one about allowing 2-3 man teams to still drop solo exclusive queues:

If you allow that, mostly everyone will drop 2-3 man teams, including a lot of players who claim to want a challenge, but really just want to get on with their friends a roll noobs. If you allow the 2-3 man teams to drop in solo queue, the group queue they just spent so much time creating will be pretty much empty by the end of the week.

Part of this is human nature: Some of us truly do seek challenge by testing themselves against the best of the best...
and thats ok.

Some of us just want a nice easy time where we feel empowered by crushing our enemies while sustaining minimal losses.....
and thats ok too.

The problem sets in when people won't be honest about waht they want. So you get people that SAY they want to face other 12 man teams and test their might but really just want to pubstomp a bunch of noobs while talking smack with their friends.
It gets worse when these people get sneaky, and try to sneak through/hold up changes that will affect the way they play. THEN things get messy......

[meteorol]

You should really give 2-4 mans the possibility to choose in which queue they drop. I can already see the forum flooding with tears of casual 3 man premades in a 3/3/4/2 team getting curbstomped by a 10/2 team.

10man boogeyman incoming. Seriously, you will avoid a lot of forum rage if you add the ability to choose between the queues.

[TygerLily]

Sky Hawk, on 23 June 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

I would like see some newer numbers. The so much changed here since then... We playing not even in the same year! I think, this datas are almost useless.. Sadly..

I really hope, Paul give as some newer numbers soon... Really!

Yea, new numbers would be nice. But honestly, the data's 4 months old and nothing in that time span seems like it could have affected the data by virtue of how matches and groups are structured (no 4x3, no tonnage matching, etc.)

[Jman5]

Sky Hawk, on 23 June 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

I would like see some newer numbers. The so mutch changed here since then... We playing not even in the same year! I think, this datas are almost useless.. Sadly..

I really hope, Paul give as some newer numbers soon... Really!

This is merely conjecture, but in my opinion those numbers are probably not accurate. They're likely giving a solo player the same weight as a group which is misleading because 1 group has multiple players. So a 2-man group should be given double weight, 3-man group triple weight, and 4-man group quadruple weight as a solo player. That would accurately give you how many people are playing group and how many people are playing solo.

In my opinion the group numbers are probably much larger.

Edited by Jman5, 23 June 2014 - 01:22 PM.

[MuonNeutrino]

TKSax, on 23 June 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

How often do you think you will run up against a full competitive 12 man??? There aren't that many left. I can almost guarantee when this is implemented you will see far more 12 mans from house-marik.net who are there to do the same thing you are, have a good time, most of the competitive teame are using private matches for practicing, and will probably continues to do so since they really do not get better by playing in the pug que.

I do not expect to run up against full 12-mans very often, for sure. It is still going to be horrible when it happens, but you're correct that it isn't going to be super common. What I *do* expect is to end up in games where one side has a 6-man from lords, 3 from 228, and 3 randoms, and the other is 6 SJR, 4 BSK, and me and my buddy. Those games are still going to be equally unpleasant, even if they aren't full 12-mans.

Jman5, on 23 June 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

If you're good enough at the game that you can match against try-hards while playing casually, it would be unfair to put you against people who are casual but cannot match against try-hards.

Let's say that your Elo brings you and your buddy to meta try-hard ville and as you say you guys are simply not good enough to be there. Your presence brings down the team because you don't play the right mechs, or you're just goofing off so you don't play well, or whatever.

Well relatively quickly, your poor play (no offense), is going to be the deciding factor in losing enough games that your Elo will naturally bring you and your buddy away from those players into whatever appropriate level you belong.

This would be nice, but it presumes that the pool of players at the top levels that the elo system has to work with is large enough for it to function as designed, and frankly that doesn't seem to be the case. If it were, this would *already have happened* to us, given how much we run into these people now. There are simply not enough people at high elo. We lose, but our 'true appropriate elo', whatever it may be, is still high enough that the matchmaker pulls us into their games anyway, presumably because it has to pull from a wide range of elo values to actually populate their matches and we're among the closest available. Believe me, if I thought this would actually happen, I'd be perfectly content with it. I *want* to fight other people of the same skill level and mindset! If the elo system were actually able to pull that off, I'd be just fine with it.

Edited by MuonNeutrino, 23 June 2014 - 01:22 PM.

[Rashhaverak]

+10 for group queue. Thank you Russ!. This is huge. The biggest roadblock to enjoying MWO with friends is coming down.

Clans and teams... July 2014 is the real launch of MWO!


New tagline for MWO: Play with one to eleven of your friends!

Edited by Rashhaverak, 23 June 2014 - 01:26 PM.

[Bilbo]

meteorol, on 23 June 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

You should really give 2-4 mans the possibility to choose in which queue they drop. I can already see the forum flooding with tears of casual 3 man premades in a 3/3/4/2 team getting curbstomped by a 10/2 team.

10man boogeyman incoming. Seriously, you will avoid a lot of forum rage if you add the ability to choose between the queues.

It's been said already. If you allow the smaller groups to opt out the larger groups will likely never get a match.

[Roadbeer]

Cimarb, on 23 June 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

I have followed both as well and see it completely differently, but that is how opinion works.

I have worked in customer service for years and STILL work in the field, and after reading Russ try to make light of their (communal, not just Road) attacks over and over again, I applauded his retorts, even though I knew they were not exactly professional. It is extremely frustrating to not be able to tell someone what you think about their horrible attitudes, especially on social media where 2/3 people think the internet revolves around their hashtag.

Right?
I'm such an ass for getting frustrated after spending the equivalent of a gold skinned mech over 2 years (mostly just because, and not to get my hands on the latest grab deal) and only receiving equivocation, bad balance, moved goal posts, changed positions and snarky "island" comments.

F me right?

Lulz.

[Sean von Steinike]

Guess I'll wait to see how it plays out. Last few tries at fixing the match maker failed. Maybe this will be the time it goes without a hitch.