82 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

The only reason tanking fails in MWO is the combination of pinpoint damage and the absurdly large scaling of assault mechs compared to lights. For example, an Atlas should only be about three times bigger than a Jenner by volume. Not the 5-6 times bigger it is in MWO.

Assaults should be able to tank, like they can in Battletech. Its just MWO's unbalanced game mechanics prevent that. The addition of pinpoint damage is basically whats stripped assaults of their ability to take hits.

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 27 June 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

The only reason tanking fails in MWO is the combination of pinpoint damage and the absurdly large scaling of assault mechs compared to lights. For example, an Atlas should only be about three times bigger than a Jenner by volume. Not the 5-6 times bigger it is in MWO.

Assaults should be able to tank, like they can in Battletech. Its just MWO's unbalanced game mechanics prevent that. The addition of pinpoint damage is basically whats stripped assaults of their ability to take hits.

Guess what?


THEY CAN'T.

Deal with it.

[YueFei]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 June 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

A fine example was earlier tonight on Canyon Network. I and another Direwolf were hanging back ,taking potshots and LRM volleys as we could.

Some idiots start blabbering about why don't you guys do something. Try to explain we are, but that committing 2 Direwolfs to the front just means two dead direwolfs, and loss of their firepower, because when the PUGs abandon us at the first sign of trouble, WE can't break off.

Sure enough, first hard push from the opposition, and we were two solo Direwolves.

GG, close!

Yeah this is the thing some people don't understand. If you turn and look at your Assault mech pilots and they are shooting at stuff, then that means they are doing something helpful, and you really shouldn't expect them to rush into danger just to satisfy someone's ADD and lack of patience. I have no problem with an Assault mech hanging back and sticking to cover, that's just playing smart, and I'm fine with that as long as I see him actually maneuvering to take shots once in awhile.

The other issue you talked about is the one where Assault mechs often get left behind when a bunch of teammates decide that they want to fall back, or to go the long way around to "flank".

I have to admit I was often guilty of trying to "flank" in a Medium mech back when I was a much less experienced player. The thing about making a flanking move is that it has to happen quickly and it has to happen from an angle where you are mutually supporting the Assault mechs. Otherwise, it just means I've left my big brothers with 1 less player, and if the enemy scouts it and pushes into them while I am busy taking a stroll around the park, I just screwed my team. But for a looong time I didn't realize that is what I was doing, cuz in my mind I was doing the smart move by "flanking" rather than attacking head-on. I think Koreanese made a short video clip in his Hunchback demonstrating the correct way to flank, and he explicitly said that taking the looong way around is a bad move.

The reason it took me so long to learn from my mistake is that I didn't recognize it as a mistake... sometimes it worked. And that's the problem. Sometimes you flank by taking the looong way around and it works, but only because the enemy team was timid, didn't find a way to scout, because if they did, they'd realize that you and 3 other buddies left, and won't be in position to help for the next 30 seconds. If the enemy team pushes right then and there, it's essentially a 12 v 8, and it'll be over by the time you can get in position to help.

If there's a standoff at a chokepoint between two teams, and you want your team to attack from a different angle, folks have to peel back stage by stage, and at each step the retreating group must halt in new positions to lay cover fire for the previous groups that stayed in position.

I think the military calls it a "center peel"? But in PUGs, too often, the faster mechs will peel *completely* away, and leave the Assault mechs hanging. =/

At all times the team should be able to see each other in mutually supporting positions. It's like in chess, it's harder to attack any of your pieces if your pieces are well connected to each other. Preferably, any piece that the enemy tries to take will end up resulting in an unfavorable trade for him.

Mind you, I think many newer players won't immediately grasp this, and it's not that they are cowards or jerks or selfish guys who refuse to work together with the team. I honestly think most of them were thinking like me when I was new to the game, just trying to flank from a new angle. Veterans have to help explain this behavior to new players and steer them away from it.

[Khobai]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 June 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:

Guess what?


THEY CAN'T.

Deal with it.

No. Dealing with it would mean resigning to the fact the Victor and Stalker are the only assaults anyone should ever use because theyre outright better than every other assault.

I personally think all assaults can be made competitively viable, but we need to fix a few things first. Some of the assaults like the Dire Wolf just need CT adjustments. Other assaults like the Atlas and Awesome need a lot more.

[Kmieciu]

Mercules, on 27 June 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

One of the things I have actually done in a LIGHT mech is to lead the charge. Why? Because if I do it right I survive it... that is right, I survive it. Now I need a speedy mech, preferably with JJs, and just enough firepower or cockpit shake to really annoy someone. The Firestarter can actually work pretty well for this although it is a bit easier to hit than a Spider. However it is also more dangerous than a Spider.

That's all because of the pinpoint weapons combined with high heat capacity and low heat dissipation. An Assault mech can't tank, because 2-3 enemy mechs are able to use their heat capacity to kill it before overheating. But 1 or 2 light mechs can deplete the enemy heat capacity while taking superficial damage. Right at that point, when the enemies are riding on their heat limit, it's time for our assaults to engage and stomp them.

[Mercules]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 June 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:

Guess what?


THEY CAN'T.

Deal with it.

Remove pinpoint convergence and while they would still crumble they would do so slower.

[Tom Sawyer]

I rarely charge my Atlas headlong into anything. That is a sure fire way to get swarmed and ripped to bits. Stick with the horde and provide some heavy fire.

All too often the enemy once they see ATLAS they just tend to focus fire anyway. I suspect Direwolf pilots get this treatment too.

[Fatal25]

With the exception of the Jagermech, I only play assaults. I have maxed the Atlas, Direwolf, Stalker, and Warhawk (almost). I could not agree with the OP more when it comes to what our role should be. That being said, in pug matches most players expect the assault mech to lead the charge. Sometimes this works out ok, but a lot of times it ends up just providing target practice for the enemy. When I was playing my Atlas DC more I would try to convince my lancemates to flank under ecm or any other strat besides the frontal assault, but this would rarely happen. God forbid the ecm atlas didn't immediately go up the middle and provide cover for the rest of the team.

I play with two friends who also have Atlas DC. I cannot tell you how many times the three of us would flank behind the enemy unnoticed and kill one or two mechs before the opposing team even realized we were there. Yes we would die if we run into 6-8 of them, but I can almost guarantee 3-5 of them are dead too. At the same time we are flanking some General Patton wannabe is screaming that we are noobs and losing the game for him. If the General Patton wannabe would realize that he should be making a push the same time we execute our flank he may find he could finally take the selfie of his mech standing over a pile of 12 smoking enemy corpses. Instead, most players are too busy hiding from a poptart or lrm boat because they are afraid to get their new paintjob scratched.

As the OP stated we are tank killers, not necessarily the role of a tank as generally thought of in MMORG. The Direwolf is very squishy, although it can deal a ton of damage if you last long enough. The Atlas is good and dealing damage and is much more durable than the Direwolf. The Stalker and Warkawk are, in my opinion, destined to be LRM support by design. That is not to say I haven't seen players do well in Warhawks with line of sight weapons.

In my opinion if players would understand the role of the assault a little better and be a bit more aggressive with their heavy mechs most matches would go a lot better for them.

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 June 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

Ever since this game has come out, there seems to be a severe battle over just what the "Role" of an Assault mech is.

One key issue, is that people either know nothing about armored combat tactics (sorry playing WoT does not count) or they try to view it through the "lens" of Modern Warfare. You cannot do that. By modern Warfare standards, a Battlemech is a 30 ft tall, walking target, easily destroyed by an infantryman packing a disposable rocket launcher.

The basis for design, mechanics and such, of the Battletech universe, actually has much more to do with the order of battle, tactics and such of WWII than of any modern tactics. And in that scenario, people keep making one HUGE, glaring misassumption.

That the Assault Mech, is the "Tank".

And that is just wrong, on every level. (For one thing, vs other tanks? Tanks are not terribly "tanky" to begin with, and don't weather huge amounts of incoming fire)

A successful armored attack features your MBT (Main Battle Tank/ Modern term replacing the upper end Medium Tank/Heavy Tank nomenclature of WWII) as the center piece. Assault Mechs are NOT, in general your MBTs, because MBTs are traditionally mobile, with decent armor and a big gun. In this, your centerpiece should actually be your Heavy Mechs (and mobile Assaults, like Victors, traditionally). More mobile, and because of that mobility, harder to kill, easier to bring firepower where needed.

A good armor advance needs SUPPORT elements to protect it, hence your Mediums, in effect work as your Medium and Light Armor, and your Light Mechs as the Infantry/Mounted Infantry/Tankette protecting your flanks and scouting.

What is your Assault Mech, then? http://en.wikipedia..../Tank_destroyer

That's right. Not tanks, but tank destroyers, which are deployed totally differently from Tanks, because while they usually bigger, and often better armored (at least in front) and have the biggest guns.... they are devoid of mobility in general, and as such, leading the charge, are easily flanked, swarmed and overwhelmed. The best place, usually for an Assault, is coming in BEHIND the Heavies, so that when the opposing units are flushed, then they can bring that massive frontal armor and firepower to bear on the opposing tanks.

Alternatively, you who want to bash the Stalker in the back with the LRMs? Assaults are also still the best choice for that role. Because unlike your Light/Medium/Heavy, they not only have the tonnage to spare to do it more effectively than you, but the role itself does not call for mobility.

No, this is not a perfect 1 for 1 comparison, because that is essentially, impossible. It is meant as a very basic primer for people who seem to simply not get the basics of Role Warfare. Yes the overall viability of some roles are currently suspect, and because of the current broken Poptart MEta, some of this is fuzzy (tanks, traditionally did not jump. They did use defilade fire, a lot, but in general were much less mobile about it).

I don't drive Assault, as a general rule, because I find their low mobility too defining a characteristic. I prefer Mediums, and I recognize, without me on the Big Guy's flank? He is dead fast, and that firepower deprived from my unit. So please, stop insisting the Assault lead from the front, unless, in general you WANT to keep losing.

Good write-up. (I disagree with a Stalker being a good LRM boat, but that is a personal issue with maneuverability in support role, mechanically it is sound.)

I do not run assaults if I am pugging, they need support, especially the Dire Whale.

If you want to tank an advance- send everyone at once, that is how you tank.

Most armor to spread damage, most firepower available. (Of course in the meta, everything changes..)

[mogs01gt]

xMEPHISTOx, on 24 June 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

And that ^^^ is why I am an advocate for repair/rearm costs.

Couldnt this cause the game to become very bland? Most of the matches would be 55 tonners and ECM lights. I guess it would make those 300xl+ light hunters incredibly useful but wouldnt that get old?

[waterfowl]

While I hate the tank analogies, I always felt most effective in my stalker in the rear. I don't need to be in the front to shoot LRMs, and I can protect the flanks on both sides while being able to absorb pot shots. Basically an artillery cannon that cannot be easily blown up, like a catapult can be.

I believe in the lore assaults were basically command platforms. In addition to the tonnage allowing them to field command modules, the extra armor means the commander can stay on the battlefield and direct troops longer. Anyone who has played Eve Online for some amount of time knows the best way to route an enemy force is to take out their command structure. MWO is a ****** battle simulator, because a commander can still spectate, but in Eve when you die you wake up across the galaxy. Because of this little annoyance, commanders take the most tanky thing possible, such as an amarr command ship. It would be nice if MWO had such a fleshed out role system, but it probably won't happen. That's the nature of a PUG game

Edited by waterfowl, 01 July 2014 - 06:40 AM.

[Zeke Steiner]

I disagree with the tank destroyer concept as any mech that has 4 Mlasers can fill that role. Assaults also shouldn't be LRM boats, as that's a huge waste of tonnage (I'm talking to you 3LRM15+Artemis Atlas). Assaults should carry a balanced weapon loadout so they can be threatening from any range. Anyway, before the Meta destroyed the small unit tactical and maneuvering game that was MWO, Assaults were the core of your force. They're big, slow, armored, weapon platforms. If they're not on the front lines tanking hits and building heat on the enemy team, then your less armored teammates are and they're more likely to lose a weapon/die from it.

A 2ERPPC 2Gauss Dire Wolf is an exception to the frontline rule.
As is the Dire Wolf is fine, they have an insane damage potential, giving them a torso twist that isn't slow will make them too good and will start many Dire Wolf is OP thread.

[RangerGee412]

Nice write up. Personally I feel the opposite. I find the best combo is for the assaults to plow into the lines which allows the faster heavies to swarm around the sides catching the majority of the enemy in a pocket. The lights and mediums can they circle them and seal the pocket so your enemy has nowhere to turn where he isn't getting hit. The best assaults for this are the atlas and certain stalkers if build for it.

Edited by RangerGee412, 01 July 2014 - 07:45 AM.

[Scratx]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 June 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

You mean the one even the Clans cannot replicate?

Wrong.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hephaestus

Check the Jump Tank variant

Granted, it's the Hell's Horses... which pretty much explains it all.

[Bobzilla]

When you balance firepower+armor against mobility+size but have ppfld it negates the armor advantage. When an assault takes less shots (all hits in one location) then a light (spread misses) it isn't so bad, but mobile heavy and assaults are a problem to balance.

[Rebas Kradd]

DasaDevil, on 24 June 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

The problem with this assessment is that, lore wise, the Atlas is supposed to be this massive impenetrable monstrosity. You turn the corner, face down an Atlas and simply **** your pants because it is this giant wall of armor and firepower that any lesser mech is supposed to fear.. However, that isn't really the case in this game, really. Assault mechs in general are pretty anemic / go down quickly when they're actually supposed to take the brut of the firepower to begin with.

Wanna know why the Atlas isn't feared? Because there are twelve mechs shooting at it. I guarantee that if you were alone in a Hunchback, you would indeed **** your pants at the sight of my DDC in this game.

Need bigger maps.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mercules, on 01 July 2014 - 04:25 AM, said:

Remove pinpoint convergence and while they would still crumble they would do so slower.

different story for a different day. Sadly, they either cannot, or will not do so, despite people begging for over a year. People seem to misunderstand a basic concept though. In weapon development, it has always been a race, Weapon vs Armor. And it teeters for the most part. But, since the development of man pack rockets, essentially, armor has lost, and realistically, it will continue to do so, as there appears to be no abatement to the speed in which weapon lethality increases, but barring a quantum breakthrough in physics, very finite limits to what armor can withstand.

And Khobai and others railing against it, and using the abject randomness of TT to qualify it, won't change things. What people CAN do, though, if they try, is adapt. It's not as if Assault Mechs are useless. Or they wouldn't frequently be the most common mech in matches. (I have seldom seen them any further down the list than second). But yes, if you think you exist solely to tank, then the person is going to be very disappointed.

But even in Magic TT land, an Assault Mech, getting focused by Lights and Mediums, ESPECIALLY in the Clan Invasion era and later, went down quite fast, even the dreaded Direwolf or Atlas, as firepower doubled, or more in some cases, while armor stayed essentially the same (partly because of a brain dead and uninspired Ferro Fibrous application, Where Ferro should have allowed the Mech to exceed traditional armor values).

I love how people talk about a mech lasting forever in TT, when 9 times out of 10, it lasted maybe 4-5 turns of focused fire, tops, and frequently, much less. That's about 45 seconds of "real time". Just because a turn took forever to play in in Btech, doesn't mean the mechs actually survived an eternity.

Does convergence need to go? Yes, and no. We need the imperfect convergence of CB back, because if a person takes the time to line up their shot, they should be rewarded. But yes, snapping off a jump shot, on the run, should not pinpoint all the weapon same place (though weapons in the same location, IMO should largely group together, as 2 PPC side by side on the same arm, hitting the right shoulder and the left big toe is even more ludicrously stupid, regardless of precious "TT")

[Prezimonto]

I generally agree. However, there are situations where a well supported push centered by a big fat Assault can work wonders. They CAN withstand a good amount of fire, especially if there's several other targets to confuse the enemy, and if their flanks are covered.

It's one reason the DDC is so good. ECM hides the big fatty until he's in your face with his friends if you're not paying attention.

Also, I miss the old Victor... and Assault built to rumble... and now we just have the best pop-up toy.

>>>>>>>>>

edit on Ferro-Fibrous upgrade.

I wish they would do the following:
keep the low tonnage received and ADD:
Either a differently scaled armor with new caps so mechs carry around 10 to 20% more armor at full capacity.
OR give mechs with FF 10% damage reduction (or a little better) to armored components.

The game currently seriously lacks in defensive options.

Edited by Prezimonto, 03 July 2014 - 11:51 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Prezimonto, on 03 July 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

I generally agree. However, there are situations where a well supported push centered by a big fat Assault can work wonders. They CAN withstand a good amount of fire, especially if there's several other targets to confuse the enemy, and if their flanks are covered.

It's one reason the DDC is so good. ECM hides the big fatty until he's in your face with his friends if you're not paying attention.

Also, I miss the old Victor... and Assault built to rumble... and now we just have the best pop-up toy.

And at times it should. At times, it does. In general, against a well prepared enemy, such a tactic failed. As it often does in MWO. Part of a successful strategy is determining if your opponent is going to be one that counters, or folds. If they are disorganized, of low morale, etc, a heavy push in the face is often that is needed to break the enemy.

And usually the DDC push is after forces have been engaged for a bit. I have seldom seen even a full lance of DDCs go for a facehug right at the get go and have ti work.

[Prezimonto]

It doesn't happen a lot, but in PUG matches it can be surprising what one lance with a DDC and some communication can manage.

also I edited last post with some thoughts on FF.