44 replies to this topic

[Carrioncrows]

Complete failure.

I wouldn't say this device does nothing, but I will say it does nothing significant.

The Bad-
Crits are useless in this game. Period. You can only crit when someone has no armor on a location. Considering you have x4 times the armor as you do structure, actually critting someone is pointless. No need to waste time killing a single component. 100 armor, 25 structure. Why waste time with crits when it only takes a little extra damage to collapse the location and kill every component in it?

I could understand if we had x1 armor and x4 times the structure. But we do not which makes crit nothing more than useless code that sucks down cycles.

Zoom Bonus
The bonus's this module provides should be in internals of 20% otherwise you will not get enough benefit. That means with a Class VIII - 7 ton targeting computer you will have 140% zoom bonus. Meaning instead of 1.5x zoom you will have 3.6 zoom and instead of x3 zoom you will have 7.2 zoom. With advanced zoom, instead of 4x zoom you will have 9.6 zoom.

Quicker information Gathering
I find it irrelevant, some people might like this. It does nothing for me. Even then it should also be in intervals of 20%.

Range Bonus:
Useless. The amount of range you gain is so minimal as to be pointless. With a 7 ton targeting computer my ER Large went from 890 to 956m range. For 7 tons? Please.

The Good:
Nothing.

What should be done:
Targeting computers should lower duration of laser based weapons. CONSIDERABLY.
Every class should lower the duration of laser weapons by 10% per level.
A level 7 targeting computer should lower the duration of a Er large laser by 70% meaning instead of a duration of 1.5 the Er Large laser would have a duration of 0.5

He is paying 7 tons to make his 4 ton weapons more effective.

AC's should fire their rounds with quicker impulse. In other words depending on the class of targeting computer (Bigger = better) your AC's should fire their multiple rounds closer together. With a Class 7 targeting computer your AC's should streaming rounds so close together that they should almost be a single slug. Only the most frantic of fights or skilled torso twister would be able to diffuse the damage over several locations.

PPC's with a targeting computer should increase the pinpoint damage while decreasing the splash damage.

With a class 7 targeting computer a clan ERPPC should be dealing all 15 dmg pinpoint and have 0 splash with increased projectile speed.

7 tons of targeting computer to make worthwhile a 6 ton high heat weapon.

LBX with a targeting computer should dramatically reduce spread. With a Class 7 targeting computer the LBX should almost be firing a single slug. In other words tighten up the choke the more TC you have.

This is the only way I see targeting computers becoming worthwhile.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 24 June 2014 - 07:21 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

Carrioncrows, on 24 June 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

Complete failure.

I would say this device does nothing, but I will say it does nothing significant.

The Bad-
Crits are useless in this game. Period. You can only crit when someone has no armor on a location. Considering you have x4 times the armor as you do structure, actually critting someone is pointless. No need to waste time killing a single component. 100 armor, 25 structure. Why waste time with crits when it only takes a little extra damage to collapse the location and kill every component in it?

I could understand if we had x1 armor and x4 times the structure. But we do not which makes crit nothing more than useless code that sucks down cycles.

Zoom Bonus
The bonus's this module provides should be in internals of 20% otherwise you will not get enough benefit. That means with a Class VIII - 7 ton targeting computer you will have 140% zoom bonus. Meaning instead of 1.5x zoom you will have 3.6 zoom and instead of x3 zoom you will have 7.2 zoom. With advanced zoom, instead of 4x zoom you will have 9.6 zoom.

Quicker information Gathering
I find it irrelevant, some people might like this. It does nothing for me. Even then it should also be in intervals of 20%.

Range Bonus:
Useless. The amount of range you gain is so minimal as to be pointless. With a 7 ton targeting computer my ER Large went from 890 to 956m range. For 7 tons? Please.

The Good:
Nothing.

What should be done:
Targeting computers should lower duration of laser based weapons. CONSIDERABLY.
Every class should lower the duration of laser weapons by 10% per level.
A level 7 targeting computer should lower the duration of a Er large laser by 70% meaning instead of a duration of 1.5 the Er Large laser would have a duration of 0.5

He is paying 7 tons to make his 4 ton weapons more effective.

AC's should fire their rounds with quicker impulse. In other words depending on the class of targeting computer (Bigger = better) your AC's should fire their multiple rounds closer together. With a Class 7 targeting computer your AC's should streaming rounds so close together that they should almost be a single slug. Only the most frantic of fights or skilled torso twister would be able to diffuse the damage over several locations.

PPC's with a targeting computer should increase the pinpoint damage while decreasing the splash damage.

With a class 7 targeting computer a clan ERPPC should be dealing all 15 dmg pinpoint and have 0 splash with increased projectile speed.

7 tons of targeting computer to make worthwhile a 6 ton high heat weapon.

LBX with a targeting computer should dramatically reduce spread. With a Class 7 targeting computer the LBX should almost be firing a single slug. In other words tighten up the choke the more TC you have.

This is the only way I see targeting computers becoming worthwhile.

While I think some of your ideas are terrifying I do completely agree as 7tons and all those slots have to be useful

[Carrioncrows]

MonkeyCheese, on 24 June 2014 - 07:16 PM, said:

While I think some of your ideas are terrifying I do completely agree as 7tons and all those slots have to be useful

Well you have to consider that 7 tons is the price of a ERPPC and a Er medium and those 7 slots on a clan mech are MASSIVE. You have to give up a hell of a lot of "stuff" to achieve that.

The Targeting computer has to be justifiable in taking. Yes those options can be terrifying. But it doesn't necessarily constitute an uptick in DPS. in the case of the lasers it is a slight uptick in DPS.

But for the most part it is about using the weapons you have more effectively instead of simply taking more.

[Strongpaw]

Ok this one is tougher. I tried a few designs that pushed the extreme ex; LB20x ac with the 7 ton Targeting computer, slowest lasers I could use and I couldn't see a difference in fire rate and such, zoom the same this one is just inconclusive...

Strongpaw

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I can only speculate about the effectiveness of targeting computers due to the limited number of matches, but unless I was very lucky, they seemed to be quite effective at critting. I played a Warhawk with 2 ERPPC and a Gauss, with Target Computer V, and in two volleys destroyed 5 components on an enemy.

I also tried a Stormcow with 1 Gauss and 1 ERPPC, and Target Computer I, unfortunately the battle was so frenetic I was unable to observe crits.

[A Man In A Can]

Targeting computer bonuses seemed negligible. Of the bonuses, the only noticeable ones were the zoom bonuses, and range bonuses and these are rather unnecessary TBH and makes balancing weapons harder. The rest of the unnoticeable ones the problem is exactly that. They were unnoticeable, so it was hard to tell when the extra perks were kicking in or not. The crit perk is still fine to keep as basically that's supposed to represent the ability to target specific components within a mech and destroy them not just simply blowing the sections off. Perhaps make this more the focus of the targeting computer (as it still is the only piece of equipment that improves these values) and make each step significant like 10% additional chance to crit up to 70% along with equal levels of targeting speed improvement. Changes like this make it more desirable for non-FLD weapons while doing little for FLD weapons as they are already good at blowing whole sections off with good player aim. More of course could be done, but this is all I can think of as a suggestion in such short notice.

I didn't get time to test the CC's effects. I did notice that it was only mountable on heavy/assault mechs only. I can somewhat see why, and this mounting restriction may be okay to keep, but ultimately I still stand by my feelings that a complete re-purpose of the CC to be more command and battlegrid focused is in order vs it being a weird TC cousin.

Edited by Mechwarrior Mousse, 24 June 2014 - 08:17 PM.

[Deathlike]

Command Console didn't seem to do anything consequential (if the Command Chair post holds)... and it messed up 3x Zoom to 2.26x... I'm not sure if that was a cosmetic bug or it was outright broken/wrong.

As an aside... the new "markers" for the turret grid were really tiny circles. Even a large circle with some directional arrow of where it's firing at would be more useful than "dots".

[Bhael Fire]

I tried using Targeting Computers rated from I-VII... and aside from a miniscule increase in zoom magnification, I didn't notice anything other than the fact I wasted a metric crap-tonne of crit space for it instead of using it for ammo or heat sinks.

[Nikoliy]

This was my only drop with a TC mk V, I dropped the LRM for more DHS and kept the 4xCERPPCs. Match went fine, was able to kill a fresh Dire Wolf one on one at 300-400m. Overall on this map I think more heat sinks would have been more useful then the TC. On Alpine Peaks that might be different.


Both the TC and the CC should have some effect for the rest of the team. If according to PGI information most players are pugs then it needs to be relevant to them.
Command Console implies that it helps to command. So lets give a button to target whatever the mech with CC is targeting, first within your lance then within the company if their is more then one CC mech. The players that use that should get some small amount of XP (10-25) and give the player that equipped the CC some XP as well, again a small amount that can accumulate. This can work similar to the way "spot target" currently works. Make this effect only work at the range of 100-150m and this will help motivate pugs to stay together and work together.

For the Targeting Computer again give the mech with the TC an icon to identify it and limit the bonus range for other mechs to within 100-150m. Since it is not a "command" piece of equipment don't give a target of target button and the bonus should be limited to speeding up target info and lock-on times. Similarly to the CC give the other players some bonus XP for staying in the bonus area and shooting the target of the TC mech again it should be small amount 10-25xp. For the player with the TC the bonus XP should scale based on the size of the TC they brought.

Edited by Nikoliy, 24 June 2014 - 09:51 PM.

[Shalune]

I was really disappointed to see TC's laser range bonus halved. This now means that, with one exception, every bonus the TC provides either feels negligible, or is impossible to see the results of (crits.) Context: This is talking primarily about larger TC versions. The 1t version will undoubtedly be useful for its boost to clan mechs with MGs. Justifying anything larger is very difficult.

The exception is target info gathering. This felt amazing, especially combined with the module! Still, because the other bonuses feel so minor I only see it being used by very specific types of pug builds, or shot-callers in organized play (on its own extremely limited*.) This might not be so bad, but the main purpose of larger TCs is obscured behind this cloud of stats.

If it's meant to be about target info gathering, let it be about that. If it's meant to provide other meaningful bonuses, then I suggest making those other bonuses more meaningful. I liked the original numbers we saw on beam ranges specifically. 7 tons is a large investment for the return, but with well over 10% boost it might be justified in a laser boat. As of now, pushing ER ML to a mere 30 extra meters for 6t feels insignificant.

*Clan lights are not true scouts. Sturmcrow doesn't have the same fast, pinpoint damage as Nova to justify staying in close range for long. It excels at hit and run. This is not good for quickly checking all targets near the front. Summoner also lacks close range killing. Timber Wolf has yet to be proven viable in team play boating light weapons that would leave room for a large TC. And clan assaults are simply not great at tanky brawling, preferring longer range engagements. So for the time being, in this specific role, Nova is the only logical choice for TC in serious play. Sadly it cannot reasonably equip the largest TCs.

[Tim East]

Shalune, on 24 June 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

I was really disappointed to see TC's laser range bonus halved. This now means that, with one exception, every bonus the TC provides either feels negligible, or is impossible to see the results of (crits.) Context: This is talking primarily about larger TC versions. The 1t version will undoubtedly be useful for its boost to clan mechs with MGs. Justifying anything larger is very difficult.

Did they change that? I didn't get to get on the test, but I thought they said they weren't going to apply the crit buff to MG/flamers.

[Lily from animove]

StalaggtIKE, on 24 June 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

I would like for the Command Console to feel more like a Command Console. From TT, Command Console did the following:


Of course we can not port over TT rules into a FPS, but we can try to emulate them. I propose the following:

• +100% cockpit internals (15hp->30hp) - to emulate a copilot
  
• between 360m to 540m counter-ECM bubble - to emulate the satellite up-link
  
• +1 or +2 module slot
  
• +25% Sensor range/Info gathering

well, except from cokcpit HP it would be ok. No one would need so many cockpit HP, the HP we still have make headshots unlikely since Head Hitbios is supersmall.

Shalune, on 24 June 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

I was really disappointed to see TC's laser range bonus halved. This now means that, with one exception, every bonus the TC provides either feels negligible, or is impossible to see the results of (crits.) Context: This is talking primarily about larger TC versions. The 1t version will undoubtedly be useful for its boost to clan mechs with MGs. Justifying anything larger is very difficult.

I heard, MG's are template weapons, and therefore not get the Bonus of the additional crits, so pointless for MG's too

[Xune]

@Carrioncrows


WOW... just wow.

I hope you are trolling, overpowered bejond believe, this opinion is so wrong that even doing the opposite would still be wrong

Edited by Xune, 25 June 2014 - 02:57 AM.

[Karl Marlow]

The only thing I noticed in my tests was when the Section with the Targeting computer was destroyed it made a very oddd electronic sounds and 'TC destroyed' was flashing on my screen as though something monumentally bad had happened. Eventually the actually important message of missiles incoming replaced it. Then I died

[Butane9000]

I didn't test the Command Console because I ultimately have no builds that could truly benefit from it without being nerfed. The other issue is I think the design for the command console is flawed. It shouldn't give you a buff from damage and should be tied into consumables and communication in some way.

[Koniks]

In almost every circumstance I would rather take more weapons or heat sinks with the weight than use the Command Console or any of the Targeting Computers.

The Mk 6 and 7 versions of the TC are really the only ones with benefits that are tangible enough. But they're not worth the cost in weight and crits. Especially when modules exist for some weapons, zoom, sensors, and target info gathering.

I'd be better off spending the GXP and CBills on those and taking other equipment instead.

[Carrioncrows]

Xune, on 25 June 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

@Carrioncrows


WOW... just wow.

I hope you are trolling, overpowered bejond believe, this opinion is so wrong that even doing the opposite would still be wrong

How do you figure?

Make me a build with my version of a TC that you consider over powered.

I will make a build without a TC that does more alpha, has more heatsinks, carries more weapons.


The highest rank TC is 7 tons and 7 slots, it simply has to be worthwhile. And unless it can compete with 7 additional tons of weapons, armor, heatsinks or ammo it simply is not worth it.

The idea is to make what limited weapons you have more effective instead of strapping on more guns. Even if the TC is slightly better or even in the ballpark then it is a success. Because then it's pilots preference. Some boys like the big guns, others like more efficient means.

Prove to me that TC is busted, and I can show you exactly how it is not. It's just another option.

[Sky Hawk]

I tried CC one of my Stalker-Boat, but I tryied in the same time some Moduls too.. Non of it did a '"wow" effect, I use in the future BAP and Ammo instedea CC's (3 t)... Sorry for the useless info..

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Carrioncrows, on 25 June 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

The idea is to make what limited weapons you have more effective instead of strapping on more guns. Even if the TC is slightly better or even in the ballpark then it is a success. Because then it's pilots preference. Some boys like the big guns, others like more efficient means.

This was was the reason I tested with PPC and Gauss, a +X% crit bonus didn't seem worthwhile for weapons that do less than 10 damage. However everytime I penetrated armor with a PPC or Gauss, I had a significant boost to crit possibilities. This is really only useful when you are at a heat threshold (ghost heat), if you can afford to carry another ERPPC, that not only doubles your chance for a crit, but it also does 10 more damage.

My takeaway, was that a targeting computer is only useful if you are already at your heat threshold, and find yourself with a few extra tons. Additionally I don't see a strong benefit for anything that does less than 10 burst damage.

[Shalune]

Tim East, on 25 June 2014 - 02:12 AM, said:

Did they change that? I didn't get to get on the test, but I thought they said they weren't going to apply the crit buff to MG/flamers.

Ah, I missed that part. If so I can still see the 1t being useful in laser boat builds for the crit if it's adding a full 14.5% to the crit chance rather than multiplying the existing crit chance by 1.145. This is probably for the best for the balance of MGs, but contributes to my point that the only significant benefit to large TCs is the info gathering. For anything else it felt like way too much space and weight.

EDIT: corrected crit value.

Edited by Shalune, 25 June 2014 - 02:13 PM.