159 replies to this topic

[BourbonFaucet]

Bobzilla, on 27 June 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

This isn't why we can't have nice debates, this is just why we do debate.

We can't have nice debates because some people can't accept, when it comes to experiences and opinions, two people sharing the same experience, can have different opinions on it.

Exactly.

Three men are observing a rose in public.

Man 1: "I love this rose because it's red, and that's my favorite color!"
Man 2: "I like this rose a lot because it smells nice."
Man 3: "I don't like the rose at all, too many thorns."

Three men are discussing a rose online.

Man 1: "I love this rose because it's red."
Man 2: "I like this rose for its fragrance."
Man 3: "Roses are terrible because of the thorns."

Man 1: "OMG U ***."
Man 2: "You're just a troll for that stupid comment."
Man 3: "Lol you guys are nerds the thorns ruin everything and you know it."
Man 1: "Ur probably a basement dweller!"
Man 4: "Ponies/Anime/Pokemon/Memes!"
Man 1: "Stay on topic, we're busy teaching this loser."
Man 5: "*sigh* All the threads on this forum end up this way."

And so on.

Edited by Techorse, 27 June 2014 - 06:33 AM.

[Crann]

Wow who cares? Its a community for a game what do you expect? Have fun, keep your mouth shut, and enjoy at your own level/pace. Nuff said..

[Magna Canus]

Well, this Jonny loves the post and hopes that the good effort brings good results, though he doubts it, but still wants to be pleasantly surprised.

[Cimarb]

Well said, Laser. I would assume I'm a Jonny, but I prefer to spell it Johnny just because it looks weird without the H... Do people really actually spell it that way?

Oh, and why are the Scrubs Timmies, but the Tryhards Spikes? All sorts of confusing with the swap in first letter... Always have to make things more complicated than they need to be, huh Jonny?

[1453 R]

Cimarb, on 27 June 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

Well said, Laser. I would assume I'm a Jonny, but I prefer to spell it Johnny just because it looks weird without the H... Do people really actually spell it that way?

Oh, and why are the Scrubs Timmies, but the Tryhards Spikes? All sorts of confusing with the swap in first letter... Always have to make things more complicated than they need to be, huh Jonny?

'Scrub' is a common derogatory misunderstanding of Timmy by the Spike mindset, due to that f***cking 'Play to Win' book and people horribly, horribly misunderstanding it. Said book purports that Timmy doesn't actually exist - there's Spike, and then there's people who're just too stupid/willful/stubborn to be properly Spike and thus set artificial limiters on themselves outside those imposed by the game in order to try and make the game fit their own (always meager and insufficient, according to Mr. Play to Win) skills and preferences better. Players who do this are termed 'scrub'. Some Spikes has latched onto Play To Win as an excuse that Science Is On Their Side and thusly throw the term 'scrub', as well as links to articles and snippets from Play To Win, as proof that Spike is the only viable way to properly play/enjoy any video game ever.

This is why I was getting on qki's case earlier in the thread - I've come to believe that 'scrub' isn't really a thing that exists. Not everyone can be at the very razor-edged tippy-top of competitive game even if they wanted to - and believe it or not, most of us don't want to be there.

'Tryhard' is the same thing except coming from Timmy's side of the gate - some Timmies get upset at seeing Spikes take the game so seriously or, as has been said, get bitter after being handed their faces one time too many by Spikes in a public game like this, and thus assume that all of these people are Tryhards - folks who exist only to be as ruthless, remorseless, and positively un-fun as they can possibly be and who are incapable of relaxing, taking jokes, chilling out, or not eating babies every time they play. They accuse the Spikes of deliberately setting out to make the game as big a chore as they can for everyone else, and feel that if the Tryhard could just stop trying so damn hard, everyone could have a much better time with the game and would be so much happier.

Or, to put it simply: 'scrub' is what a Spike who can't even see/understand AWESOME as a driving factor of gameplay calls Timmy, and 'tryhard' is what a Timmy who can't understand the unshakable drive to attain mastery calls Spike. Neither is correct, neither is helping. And that jackass who wrote Play To Win is SUPER NOT HELPING.

[qki]

That's just it. A scrub isn't a Timmy, Johnny, or Spike. A scrub can be anyone, and he may think of himself as a spike.

I urge you to read this piece (not by me):
http://www.sirlin.ne...ates-guide.html

It is written from the perspective of playing to win, obviously, but it's not a big leap from there.

As long as you understand, and accept, that your chosen tactic may not be the strongest, and all the implications of this fact, you can be a newbie, but not a scrub. Or you can be a veteran scrub - it all comes down to choice.

Edit:
Simupost - must have flagged me down through some weird spiritual mojo thing.


Yeah - playing to win is not the only way to enjoy a game. Hell - when I go out to play paintball, I go up against mostly rentals, with the occasional regular thrown in. And I gimp myself by playing pistols/stock class, to give the newbies a fighting chance.
I play to win (obviously), but win on my terms.

And there's nothing wrong with that, as long as you understand the mechanics.

Edited by qki, 27 June 2014 - 07:40 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

The internet is anonymous, so it tends to bring out the worst in people. I tend to try and be descent and civil, but even I admit that I act a bit more of a jerk online than I would in person. Just kind of the nature of the beast I suppose.

Besides, you take a person who thinks they are always right, and give them annonimity, they become a terror online LOL.

[Bishop Steiner]

Cimarb, on 27 June 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

Well said, Laser. I would assume I'm a Jonny, but I prefer to spell it Johnny just because it looks weird without the H... Do people really actually spell it that way?

Oh, and why are the Scrubs Timmies, but the Tryhards Spikes? All sorts of confusing with the swap in first letter... Always have to make things more complicated than they need to be, huh Jonny?

"Spike" sounds like the "tough guy "name an internet badazz would go by. "Timmie" is not exactly inTimmiedating, is it?

[FupDup]

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 June 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

The internet is anonymous, so it tends to bring out the worst in people. I tend to try and be descent and civil, but even I admit that I act a bit more of a jerk online than I would in person. Just kind of the nature of the beast I suppose.

Besides, you take a person who thinks they are always right, and give them annonimity, they become a terror online LOL.

You mean like this?

[MeiSooHaityu]

FupDup, on 27 June 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

You mean like this?

Lol, yup. That was Penny Arcade, right? That site is great.

[Utilyan]

I tend to be a mech enthusiast. To me having an URBANMECH is as essential as having grunts. To me they are toys, got to havem'. Playing with toys is the most serious and focused thing. I consider the meta builds the stock mechs and wish they had a more advanced dynamic designation system that changes on the spot with loadouts so you might see like VTR-DS2P25 or for common knowns like CPTL-SPLAT for splat-cat. The devs are kinda creeping on it with the Champ mechs.

I'd like to see more refined spike players. Like in terms of star wars everyone is Darth Vader and there is no troops....lol. If they had a god-mode mech with 50 hard points, unlimited tonnage, no heat, unlimited jump jet, runs 400 kph.........sure enough some noob will use it.


I'm hoping more for like cbill caps or dropship-mode or heres an idea community warfare, a system that looks at the cost of your own mech.

I think the cost of your own mech should give you bonuses to your grind. I think the guy who runs a firestarter WITH FLAMERS deserves better pay for actually putting in skill to a fight. Good pilot in bad mech I rather call that "skill". The scoring can be made to reflect these things.

[1453 R]

\

qki, on 27 June 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

That's just it. A scrub isn't a Timmy, Johnny, or Spike. A scrub can be anyone, and he may think of himself as a spike.

I urge you to read this piece (not by me):
http://www.sirlin.ne...ates-guide.html

It is written from the perspective of playing to win, obviously, but it's not a big leap from there.

As long as you understand, and accept, that your chosen tactic may not be the strongest, and all the implications of this fact, you can be a newbie, but not a scrub. Or you can be a veteran scrub - it all comes down to choice.

Edit:
Simupost - must have flagged me down through some weird spiritual mojo thing.


Yeah - playing to win is not the only way to enjoy a game. Hell - when I go out to play paintball, I go up against mostly rentals, with the occasional regular thrown in. And I gimp myself by playing pistols/stock class, to give the newbies a fighting chance.
I play to win (obviously), but win on my terms.

And there's nothing wrong with that, as long as you understand the mechanics.

Lemme blow your mind here, Q.

Winning isn’t the only thing a player can play a game like MWO to do.

Even your definition of ‘scrub’ comes apart if the player’s end goal isn’t “win the game.” In order for a player to be a scrub, according to your definition, they have to basically be a bad Spike – winning is the highest goal of their play, but they don’t actually go about doing so in the most effective way possible and complain when a Spikier Spike does.

Your definition separates the entire playerbase into two camps – top-level ultracomps, and various level of scrub. Timmy doesn’t exist – he’s just a more innocent/naïve version of the scrub. It’s why I hate that goddamn book and Spike’s dogged adherence to it. If I wanted to win, bar none, no other conditionals or modifiers, and then I decided that I wasn’t willing to do what that takes, then maybe – maybe – the term would apply. But you cannot call Timmy, or even Jonny, scrubs. Timmy likes to win, but winning isn’t what’s important to him. It’s not what’s fun about the game, what satisfies him the way winning satisfies a Spike. He’s there to laugh and have a good time with his friends, or to do the very best he can do in his favorite Awesome, or to troll all the things in his Spider because watching the entire enemy team go positively insane trying to catch him is what he loves to do. Buying a Dragon Slayer and tarting pops with the best of them would be ashen, hollow and meaningless to Timmy – even if he was just as good at it as the top-level ultracomp Spikes.

It isn’t about whether a player is good, bad, or indifferent, or whether or not he’s willing, ready, and able to use Da Best Stuff. It’s about what satisfies him as a player, what puts an honest smile on his face. Playing To Win denies that anything but the very tippiest-top level of cutthroat, in-it-to-win-it tournament play can put a smile on someone’s face. Therefor, Playing To Win is wrong.

There’s no such thing as a scrub.

[Toadkillerdog]

1453 R, on 27 June 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

\

Lemme blow your mind here, Q.

Winning isn’t the only thing a player can play a game like MWO to do.

Even your definition of ‘scrub’ comes apart if the player’s end goal isn’t “win the game.” In order for a player to be a scrub, according to your definition, they have to basically be a bad Spike – winning is the highest goal of their play, but they don’t actually go about doing so in the most effective way possible and complain when a Spikier Spike does.

Your definition separates the entire playerbase into two camps – top-level ultracomps, and various level of scrub. Timmy doesn’t exist – he’s just a more innocent/naïve version of the scrub. It’s why I hate that goddamn book and Spike’s dogged adherence to it. If I wanted to win, bar none, no other conditionals or modifiers, and then I decided that I wasn’t willing to do what that takes, then maybe – maybe – the term would apply. But you cannot call Timmy, or even Jonny, scrubs. Timmy likes to win, but winning isn’t what’s important to him. It’s not what’s fun about the game, what satisfies him the way winning satisfies a Spike. He’s there to laugh and have a good time with his friends, or to do the very best he can do in his favorite Awesome, or to troll all the things in his Spider because watching the entire enemy team go positively insane trying to catch him is what he loves to do. Buying a Dragon Slayer and tarting pops with the best of them would be ashen, hollow and meaningless to Timmy – even if he was just as good at it as the top-level ultracomp Spikes.

It isn’t about whether a player is good, bad, or indifferent, or whether or not he’s willing, ready, and able to use Da Best Stuff. It’s about what satisfies him as a player, what puts an honest smile on his face. Playing To Win denies that anything but the very tippiest-top level of cutthroat, in-it-to-win-it tournament play can put a smile on someone’s face. Therefor, Playing To Win is wrong.

There’s no such thing as a scrub.

well, you've surprised me with a few posts there, my good man. I think the best example of this is the old school Assault gamemode, back before we had skirmish. Now, I understand the sentiment that if you want a deathmatch you play skirmish (or conquest), but for a very long time skirmish was nonexistant. During this time, there were some players that were willing to win by doing a ninja cap, basically avoiding any kind of fight and just "winning" via technicality. There were some players, who are essentially your Spikes in this case, that supported this idea, and actually would plan out how to ninja cap more effectively. The thing is, for most of this time there was no cbill reward for the ninja cap like there is now, so quite a few players (the other two types by your definition) were always furious at cap wins. To see it from our perspective, though the cap win is technically a win, it was an absolute meaningless and hollow victory, thus negating any purpose of trying for it. It's sort of like winning a competition by being the only person that showed up, you only won in the most insubstantial sense of the word, and to plenty of people, that is not a win at all. The same can be said for the full meta games, my entire lance and I regularly have to fight full meta teams, and the sheer fact that we face them again and again means we're likely of a similar skill level or elo, but most of us absolutely refuse to run a full meta arty spam team. Even a win by doing so would essentially render the win pointless.

Also, I've read some of Sirlin's work, and it honestly reminds me of the guys that teach pickup artist classes. Winning at all costs is necessary in some fields, like actual War, where the loser is typically dead and thus losing carries a heavy price. Video Games are not actual war no matter how much they simulate it, and you should actually be glad for that, since having been in a war it's not particularly fun. Approaching a game with that kind of supremist attitude is a great way to become a raging douchebag in exchange for worthless stats. Really, when was the last time your KDR had any effect on you other than talking on this forum?

Edited by Toadkillerdog, 27 June 2014 - 09:51 AM.

[qki]

You got me wrong 1453 R


I despise the "play the game my way, or you might as well not play at all" crowd.

And I understand that there are different kinds of players, with different motivations. Being a scrub is not about having a motivation different than winning.

A scrub is someone who PROJECTS his/her motivations onto others.


In the assault/skirmish debacle, there were people who liked to cap. because it was a legitimate tactic. Capping FORCES a reaction from the team being capped, or they will lose. This can be a really useful strategy.
Then there were people, who just wanted to do big 'splosions in big 'bots. Fine.
But they started accusing the light mech pilots trying to win via caps of using an "unfun" tactic, that required "no skill". Of course, they had skill. Because skill is only how accurate your fire is, and how well you can dodge incoming shots. Knowing how to turn a battlefield situation to your advantage is not skill apparently. Forcing the slow, fat assault mechs to split up and get hammered by the rest of your team waiting to pounce takes no skill either.


THOSE guys were scrubs, and fully deserving of the name.

That crazy dude with the maniacal laugh who pilots a 100 std engine ac10 spider? Not so much.

[BourbonFaucet]

qki, on 27 June 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

Sirlin

The problem with Sirlin is that he, albeit passively aggressively, states that winning is a superior form of fun to just enjoying the variety of the game.

That's why mentioning him in game design discussions tends to be an instant loss. The fun seeking crowd tends to outweigh the competitors and it's not appreciated that we get called bad names by the competitive crowd for not wanting to drop all of our form of fun in exchange for your form.

Reading your response to 1453 R though...

Yes. It's not fair to simply say what someone is doing is cheap without any proof, or God forbid the "cheap" tactic is the actual goal of that game mode. This is a part of my motto of "playing the game as a game". Assault was made for cappin', so if you cap, it wasn't cheap. It's sometimes boring, but it's not cheap.

Edited by Techorse, 27 June 2014 - 10:59 AM.

[qki]

Yeah that's silly. And I don't entirely aggree with sirlin, but it's nice to have a post from the ultra-spike just for perspective, if nothing else.

Still, there are some morsels to be picked from his writings.

[Leafia Barrett]

qki, on 27 June 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

You got me wrong 1453 R
I despise the "play the game my way, or you might as well not play at all" crowd.

And I understand that there are different kinds of players, with different motivations. Being a scrub is not about having a motivation different than winning.

A scrub is someone who PROJECTS his/her motivations onto others.

In the assault/skirmish debacle, there were people who liked to cap. because it was a legitimate tactic. Capping FORCES a reaction from the team being capped, or they will lose. This can be a really useful strategy.
Then there were people, who just wanted to do big 'splosions in big 'bots. Fine.
But they started accusing the light mech pilots trying to win via caps of using an "unfun" tactic, that required "no skill". Of course, they had skill. Because skill is only how accurate your fire is, and how well you can dodge incoming shots. Knowing how to turn a battlefield situation to your advantage is not skill apparently. Forcing the slow, fat assault mechs to split up and get hammered by the rest of your team waiting to pounce takes no skill either.

THOSE guys were scrubs, and fully deserving of the name.
That crazy dude with the maniacal laugh who pilots a 100 std engine ac10 spider? Not so much.

qki, on 27 June 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

A scrub is someone who PROJECTS his/her motivations onto others.

Thank you thank you THANK YOU. This is exactly what I was thinking, but couldn't figure out how to express it.
A scrub is someone who refuses to accept the existence of play styles other than their own. You can be a scrub Spike, a scrub Johnny, or a scrub Timmy. You could be the best player on the face of the planet and still be a scrub. Likewise, you could be the least skilled player in the world and not be a scrub.
I don't care why you play, how you play, or what you use to play. Do whatever you like. Just accept that my reasons for and style of play may be different from yours. (I'm personally a Johnny/Spike, as best as I can tell - I don't make what works my favorites, I make my favorites work.)

qki, on 27 June 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Because skill is only how accurate your fire is, and how well you can dodge incoming shots. Knowing how to turn a battlefield situation to your advantage is not skill apparently. Forcing the slow, fat assault mechs to split up and get hammered by the rest of your team waiting to pounce takes no skill either.

That's not skill, that's strategy. Skill is the raw ability to perform the tasks provided to you by the game, i.e. accuracy. Strategy is the methods through which you meet your end goal, such as capping or flanking.
Each one has its place in a situation. Strategy doesn't mean anything if nobody can hit the broad side of a barn; meanwhile, it doesn't matter how good you are at aiming and torso twisting if you let yourself get outplayed. Personally? I'm more of a strategy guy myself.

[qki]

Well you could arguye that strategy falls into the game's "skillset", but we're talking semantics at this point. Anyway, what I was getting at, was that some people refused to accept they were outplayed, and blamed it on the "cheap tactics".

Speaking of base caps, before the turrets were installed to derpstroy any scout foolish enough to get close, my best game ever was tied closely to a cap attempt.

We dropped in Tourmaline Desert, and while we made our way to the "giant loop of death" (you know the place), b*tching betty chimes in with her annoying "base is being captured".
I was one of those closest, but running a 250 std hunchback didn't exactly make me "nimble". Turns out there were 2 or 3 enemy scouts, and they quickly retreated from our firepower, but their diversion worked. Our front line was being hit hard, and worse still, our base couldn't take another attempt like that, well past 50% capped.
At that time, it seemed like the onnly logical option was to tell my team to get back in the fight, while I stand guard. And they did get back, giving as good as they got, and when the dust settled, enemy forces were down to 2 legged spiders, a critically damaged cicada, and a relatively fresh raven.
All against me. And I can still recall that fight like it was yesterday. The result:

[Gas Guzzler]

Interesting. Sounds like I am a Johnny (but sometimes feel like a Spike... late at night.. keep running into SJR/HoL/etc...give me mah Dragon Slayer!!). Timmys annoy me, they always call for nerfs, and I like giving Spikes bloody noses

But yes these different people profiles definitely explain why there is SO MUCH disagreement on the forums lol.

[xMEPHISTOx]