12 replies to this topic

[TibsVT]

To clarify immediately; I use the word stable because of what I've seen in the current meta and it should be blindingly obvious for anyone with any level of common sense at this stage.

I know the 10v12 concept was tossed into the hands of PGI in the past and dismissed but I would like to continue to try and breathe life back into the idea simply because of what I've seen since the release of the Clans (I am aware PGI have limitlessly better information on the subject also). I, personally, see far too many Clan mechs around these days. I had slim hopes of seeing a lot more of the guys out there who are IS loyalists going at it against the Clans in the current game but no, instead all I see is a bunch of guys who wear IS faction tags and run around in an Omni and any who aren't are usually complaining because they have to wait X long before they can buy one for c-bills. This raises a very concerning notion with myself on a number of levels mainly Community Warfare.

The suggestion is to leave the current game meta as is only drop the numbers of a Clan team down to 10, leaving a full IS team at 12. No tweaking of weapon or armour values just drop the team number. This would obviously require PGI to force IS and Clan to drop seperate but with Community Warfare on a horizon it's doubtless this isn't already on the cards. I believe that this action alone would discourage the general mass to drift over to the Clan side and keep a steady number of people playing IS (the majority will play for easy wins, right?). I've noted a couple of reasons for this below if anyone cares to peruse them.

• Once Community Warfare comes out we will likely have most if not all of the Clan Mechs readily available for c-bills. This is a problem on many levels because all people need to do is change their faction to one of the Clans in order to continue to use those Mechs. I know and understand that there are those out there who are completely loyal to the IS lore as I myself an to Clan lore but from what I have visibly seen those people are unfortunately going to end up the minority. I don't really want to be consistantly bashing heads against the Clans all the time; I personally wanted to see Clan vs IS fights. All the current Clan release has done has turned the game from IS v IS to Clan v Clan. The future prospect of this is upsetting at best.

• My second concern is a far more personal issue than the future of the game. People who, to put it is as bluntly as possible, simply cannot use the Clan tech. I've seen more people then I'm honestly happy to admit try to fry eggs on their Omni's. I watched one individual (who I had the gross misfortune of being grouped against two games in a row) do it multiple times in the same Mech, in seperate games. This is not fun for me. I get nothing out of destroying a Mech that some idiot overheated and it's been sitting there shut down for at least 5 seconds nor do I get any enjoyment out of watching my own team doing it. I understand that some of these people may just be testing out a new fit that ran a little warmer then they thought it would - this is fine - but consistantly..? I don't exactly like the prospect of these 'shutdown junkies' being tossed into the ever-growing Clan horde to help ruin the chances of people who actually want to try and win their games come Community Warfare. I'm sure that once we're playing for something more than a kdr it will bother people.

[DustySkunk]

KelesK, I too see many clan mechs on the field. However, it's important to keep in mind that the clans have been something people have been waiting for since MWO was announced. They have just been released...it's been less than 10 days... I'm sure a lot of people are riding the "Ooo look at my shiny new mechs" feeling right now and want to pilot them. Rightfully so! Heck, I am too. Give it time, and the novelty will wear off. When it does, I'm sure the game will feel more balanced in terms of Clan vs IS tech on the battlefield (at least as far as the meta will allow).

In terms of dropping 10-v-12, Clan-v-IS...

My constructive criticism is that PGI has done a decent job balancing Clan tech for the current game. By dropping two players short, the Clans will be at a significant disadvantage. As an optional drop, yes I can totally see that but forcing drops like this will be unduly punishing clan players just because of they are Clan, and would serve to unbalance a very difficult to balance system in the first place. In TT, Clans and Clan tech were *far* superior to IS tech in 3050. It was a valid justification for Clans to run in smaller forces as they were THAT much more powerful. In MWO, there is no significant advantage to Clan tech, at least none on par with the lore. I know you addressed this in terms of risk and reward in your post... however I believe that by forcing people that want to play Clans to fight at a disadvantage, there will be a number of unintended consequences. Two of those being:

1. New players who may have played the game before may no longer choose to play because they cannot play their favorite mechs (i.e. Timberwolf) without being thrown into hardmode
2. Clans become "elite" (ugh)

Anyway, this is just my two cents. I understand where you are coming from and the reasoning behind your idea but I don't think it will solve the problem the way you hope it would. My unsolicited advice: Give it a little time. If it's a major problem by the time it looks like CW will actually role out, then worry.

Edited by DustySkunk, 24 June 2014 - 05:47 PM.

[CyclonerM]

They have already stated that it will take more skill to use the Clan 'Mechs, so having them at a disadvantage would just be fitting.

However, it might be a bit too much, but we have to see how Puretech Clan vs IS works before judging. Besides, i want 12 vs 10 just to be truer to the lore, more fitting with the Clan military structure and coherent with the practice of bidding.

[Nova Latios Storm]

yay

[OznerpaG]

i think the clans are pretty well balanced vs IS, but i'd really love to play all matches 12v12 clan vs IS. it's just...right

[Red squirrel]

I like the idea. It is horrible being forced to play in mixed IS/CLAN teams. This makes little to no sense.

But in the end the problem might not be as perilous as the OP suggests.
First of all, it's always been the same after the release of new mechs. Everyone wants to try them. After a while things go back to normal. Remember when they released the Awesome, or the Cataphract, the Highlander, the Victor, the..... So (yes I'm really an IS loyalist so I didn't buy a clan package) even I will probably get a Nova and a Madcat just for the lolz (and to study the enemy).

Sencond, I think the few real IS loyalists are probably a much more skilled bunch than the many (no offence to good Clan players) casual players getting the mech with the most weaponry. So PUGging as an IS player might actually be fun again


PS: Please give me the IS names in my HUD - it's a MADCAT!

[OznerpaG]

Red squirrel, on 30 June 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

PS: Please give me the IS names in my HUD - it's a MADCAT!

that in itself is a great idea too!

[Jack Spade Ward]

Not a good ideia to be honest... I believe that, with the current meta, IS mechs do have alot of an advantage on the game. I think that the horror of clan mechs was such, that te nerf they did on clan mechs was enourmous!

IS mechs have better, and i mean better, pin point damage than clan mechs, dont get heat as much (wich is strange, because acording to lore, clan mechs can handle heat alot better). Sure, clan mechs have alot of DPS, but almost every clan weapon SPREAD their damage too much! Even LRMs... To be competitive on a clan mech, you need to put gauses... meta again... and even as poptarts, IS mechs win again. Another example is the clan LL, sure it can get 890m, huge distance, but to incresase 22% of dmg, you get an extra 50% of duration of the beam! Thats all great, but unless your target is still, like afk or disconect, no one will stand still geting hit by a CLL. And what about clan balistics? Yeah, CUAC20 lokks great, feels great, but its just for show... not a big pinpoint damage there, give me an AC20 any day! But yeah... clan AC20 actually are the same as an ultra... 5 burst shots... again, not much pinpoint dmg there...

My clan has done alot of private matches and we did clan vs IS! Take a guess who wins? For one clan win, usually there are 4 IS wins. A dire wolf has his hitboxes broken! A duel of a Direwolf againt an Atlas, guess who wins? Everytime! Yep, the Atlas!!! We did alot of battles, and the only mech that can stand against IS mechs toe to toe, is the Timberwolf. Light clan mechs arent lights... they are actually as medium mechs, you need to play them as mediums... with light mechs armor...

Again, the whole concept of clan mechs, the omnipods, their templates, are great! But PGI didnt do an excelent job im afraid... clan mechs dont need to be the all mighty powerfull as lore tells us, but they didnt need to be so nerfed to the point that they arent an actual threat against the current meta of poptarts, jaggerbomb, splatcats, dual gauss jaggers (that reminds me, the only clan mechs that can actually get 2 or more gausses is the Direwolf...and the warhawk, assault mechs).

So, 10 clan vs 12 IS mechs? I would laugh at the massacre lol...

[Vermaxx]

Clan players should always be at some kind of significant disadvantage, because all the 'balancing work' was stupid and IP breaking.

Clans run the smallest teams possible with the best tech in the galaxy. That is the point of being a clanner, to be an elite among elites in a fight against nearly limitless enemies.

What we have here is some perversion where the game must be balanced so both sides can intermingle freely, because CW is massively delayed. However, SINCE all this work was done to rewrite the game, there is NO CHANCE clanners will be balanced by uneven teams.

Clan mechs will become the standard, and anyone will be able to use them regardless of faction choice. This will sort of level the game, since everyone will have access to the same tech again - but it will level the playing field by making IS mechs nearly extinct. Everyone but hardcore fans will take the numerical advantage - clan mechs ARE BETTER regardless of balancing and targeting computers aren't in yet. It's even more clear than DHS were - I don't think there is a single player using SHS still unless they can't afford the upgrade. SHS are extinct tech, and rightly so.

The inability to mix tech - which should be included since they nerfed all the clan stuff anyway - means IS mechs are not the most efficient min/max available. They will become largely outmoded by clan tech, except for the people who just cant afford 18-25 million per variant. There will be no CW meta, because there is nothing enticing people to stay in IS mechs.

Clan players being outnumbered EVERY FIGHT, and actually having to work at being REAL BADASSES, would entice people to stay as '**** IS players.' Just picking a clan mech and having a much higher chance at being a 'badass' means most people will just take the easy way out and not become excellent players.

[Valten]

I like the 10 v 12 but only if they keep the teams pure.
And I'm one of those IS tags in a clan mech. Face it, there is no CW here so tags mean nothing. As is I will run what I feel like. Clan/IS, they did a good job balancing IMHO. Finally, let's face it. By 3060 any IS pilot (especially mercs) who could get their hands on clan tech were already using it. We are fast approaching "3055" so I have no problem at all with mixed groups. And I really hope that they never do give IS mechs the option to take clan weapons or the clan mechs become 100% pointless.

[TibsVT]

Red squirrel, on 30 June 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

PS: Please give me the IS names in my HUD - it's a MADCAT!

I have also made a thread somewhere regarding this (If you pilot an IS Mech, Clan Omni's will read as their IS designations). It can be found here: http://mwomercs.com/...87#entry3458387

DustySkunk, on 24 June 2014 - 05:46 PM, said:

Anyway, this is just my two cents. I understand where you are coming from and the reasoning behind your idea but I don't think it will solve the problem the way you hope it would. My unsolicited advice: Give it a little time. If it's a major problem by the time it looks like CW will actually role out, then worry.

My concern is that by this time, it will be far too late to reverse. I don't expect major nerfs or buffs to either side. From what I've seen so far I honestly believe a team of 10 Clan could beat an equally skilled team of 12 IS. I would also like to add that I am all in favour of the pure teams. No mixed drops.

Edited by KelesK, 30 July 2014 - 01:37 AM.

[ExAstra]

As-is, the Clan mechs have been "nerfed" to be more in line with IS equipment despite their "superiority". This works great in mixed Clan-ISvsClan-IS drops, and the two feel relatively well balanced. I don't feel like I'm dominating all the time in all of my Clan mechs, Yeah the Timberwolf and Dire Wolf primes do excellently, but it's not like I won the match by myself or anything.


I fully support 10v12 Clan v IS drops. However, we first need the LB??X ACs on the clan side to be able to load cluster or slug rounds (or both) and have the game be able to change ammo types, which is coming, but not here yet. That would give Clans our 20 on-point damage Autocannon.

Heat and laser duration could be better balanced as well in a 10v12 scenario. Again, it works great in mixed 12v12, but if we're gonna drop 10v12 our tech needs to have that bit of "edge" and not "cool, fresh, and new but not better".

[TibsVT]

I don't believe PGI plans to ever give us single slug munitions.

To be 100% fair Clan Jade Falcon are doing private 10 v 12 drops (pure teams) so if anyone would be the people to ask about how each side works as they should it would be them. I'm not sure which IS faction they are going against.

Honestly if any of them say it is feasible for a 10v12 to work successfully in the current game I don't see a reason not to make the drops pure and just do it. Set teams of 10 v 12 is no different to 10 v 12 pugs in my book. That aside people play to have fun and while I can understand that "stacking" one team may take away from someone else's fun what about the flip-side? What if I enjoy the challenge of being outnumbered? It's a team oriented game regardless of where you stand with lore and I feel this will loosely force people to play in a more team orientated manner. Plus if you are a lore maniac you can alway play a private match to get your zellbrigen fix.

Edited by KelesK, 06 August 2014 - 01:31 PM.