164 replies to this topic

[Sky Legacy]

Flyby215, on 24 June 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

I don't think I'm confusing anything; jump-jet, pin-point-front-loaded-damage, reposition, rinse and repeat until enemy is dead. Is that not poptarting as we know it?

No it's not. You sir are confused and clearly don't understand the underlying issues in the game. The game never had a problem with jump jetting. You are erroneously conflating the ability to jump jet with POPTARTING which as defined is the exploitative/annoying method of standing behind a wall and "POPPING" up and down over and over while sniping your opponent but never moving or changing position, making a push, engaging, etc. It is possible to brawl with jump jets and close in and there is absolutely zero wrong with that.

[Vassago Rain]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

It's actually hard to tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

MWO has a very strong P2W element. If you don't cough up money for cash robots or early access paywalled new factions, you might as well go play something else

[KinsonRavenlock]

CG Chicken Kn, on 24 June 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

Top ranked by.... who exactly? The ONE tourney MWO has had?

Interesting test yes. More interesting would be the meta victors versus Madcats that weren't trying to be jump snipers.
Like say 4 lrm/med laser boats with two Jenners with UAV and a narc. After the ppc/uac guys eventually killed the lights, they would be very torn up, while the Madcats would be at full health. And still have 16 ER med lasers between them.
Or some other variation of counter to meta mechs with equal tonnage per team.

Oh and for actual ranked league play, starting very soon, with bidding on matches cz style.. https://mwolobby.com
Looking forward to seeing the "competitive" crowd there.

After the ppc/uac guys eventually kill the lights ? So 45 seconds into the match ? The fact that you suggest that as a viable counter to a dragon slayer lance does not lend much credence to your understanding of high level play...

On a side note the testing itself wasn't completely definitive as even in that match there was a fair sized skill gap, with myself being at the lower end of the people involved.

[Sky Legacy]

Vassago Rain, on 24 June 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

MWO has a very strong P2W element. If you don't cough up money for cash robots or early access paywalled new factions, you might as well go play something else

That screenshot is nothing, they just had a match against another clan that was 8 Victors on each side and 4 lights on each side.

[Flyby215]

Vassago Rain, on 24 June 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

Didn't you see LORDS vs steel jags in the finals?



Look at all those money only gundams.

Going way off topic now, but we've heard a few times that PGI had deliberately set up the tournament to ensure SJR and Lords could potentially face off in the final match. Everyone, including PGI knew exactly what SJR and HoL was bringing to the table. So when all the players see the final match, see what those elite teams run, suddenly the player base wants to immitate them... Gee, I wonder what kind of sale PGI could put on? Oh ya, lets put those tournament dominating mechs on sale! and to make sure players don't lose their investment too soon, lets ensure jump-sniping remains dominant for awhile so players don't complain of their investment being worthless.

Conspiracy right?

(I'm sorry to go off-topic so much but I really couldn't help myself...)

[Adiuvo]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

It's actually hard to tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

SJR did use 9 hero mechs and we did use 6, so...

Ignoring the tonnage limits, 733Cs could have replaced the Dragon Slayers and JR7-Fs the Embers and the games would have played out the same. 733Cs would have been better actually, because there's little actual jumpsniping on Crimson Strait, especially in the area we fought in. It's more corner peeking, which the HGN is better at due to its better ability to tank.

[Atheus]

Vassago Rain, on 24 June 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

MWO has a very strong P2W element. If you don't cough up money for cash robots or early access paywalled new factions, you might as well go play something else

Agreed.

[CG Chicken Kn]

Started playing competitive CZ league 14 years ago.. MWOLobby set up is like that. And allows for less than 12 v 12 competitive play. Please, do come. I'd rather lose a hard fought game than win an easy one. Far more enjoyable.
Will be more than happy to have you kick my mech all over the map, Repeatedly, if necessary. One does not improve by playing people you can beat.

[Atheus]

Adiuvo, on 24 June 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

SJR did use 9 hero mechs and we did use 6, so...

Ignoring the tonnage limits, 733Cs could have replaced the Dragon Slayers and JR7-Fs the Embers and the games would have played out the same. 733Cs would have been better actually, because there's little actual jumpsniping on Crimson Strait, especially in the area we fought in. It's more corner peeking, which the HGN is better at due to its better ability to tank.

Mhm. I'll address this in my upcoming proof of MWO's pay to win market and its consenting patrons.

[Sky Legacy]

KinsonRavenlock, on 24 June 2014 - 07:59 PM, said:

After the ppc/uac guys eventually kill the lights ? So 45 seconds into the match ? The fact that you suggest that as a viable counter to a dragon slayer lance does not lend much credence to your understanding of high level play...

On a side note the testing itself wasn't completely definitive as even in that match there was a fair sized skill gap, with myself being at the lower end of the people involved.

Yeah keep in mind no one is saying it was a definitive test. It was just a group of top level "friends" who decided to have some fun and try it out and see which side would win and I happened to be watching the stream and screencapped the results. I think a few people assumed this was some definitive scientific test meticulously set up and designed. It wasn't. However it still happens to be the FIRST of its kind objective results that we've had a chance to look at yet and so that in and of itself is therefore interesting but too much shouldn't be read into it.
I don't even have an 'agenda' in posting it. I just want people to see the results.

Personally to me what the results so far have shown that the two sides are surprisingly balanced and it all came down to tactics and on the fly decision making. The Victors had a slight edge in wins which they SHOULD considering they're 5 tons heavier and are officially ASSAULT mechs and Timberwolves are Heavy mechs

Flyby215, on 24 June 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

Going way off topic now, but we've heard a few times that PGI had deliberately set up the tournament to ensure SJR and Lords could potentially face off in the final match. Everyone, including PGI knew exactly what SJR and HoL was bringing to the table. So when all the players see the final match, see what those elite teams run, suddenly the player base wants to immitate them... Gee, I wonder what kind of sale PGI could put on? Oh ya, lets put those tournament dominating mechs on sale! and to make sure players don't lose their investment too soon, lets ensure jump-sniping remains dominant for awhile so players don't complain of their investment being worthless.

Conspiracy right?

(I'm sorry to go off-topic so much but I really couldn't help myself...)

Well it worked cus after the tourny is when I dug up my credit card and finally plunked down for a Dragon Slayer. Good marketing
However keep in mind teams had a chance to change that. The russian team brought all AC boats or something from what I recall and still got owned so

[Viges]

Sky Legacy, on 24 June 2014 - 07:02 PM, said:

all matches used "Meta" builds. Timberwolves with dual CERPPC and Gauss versus Dragonslayers with 1xERPPC, 1XPPC, 1xGauss

Why DSs not with 2xPPC+2xAC5? Using gauss makes sense only for clanners atm (as I understand). And why some games 5 vs 4?

[Vassago Rain]

Flyby215, on 24 June 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

Going way off topic now, but we've heard a few times that PGI had deliberately set up the tournament to ensure SJR and Lords could potentially face off in the final match. Everyone, including PGI knew exactly what SJR and HoL was bringing to the table. So when all the players see the final match, see what those elite teams run, suddenly the player base wants to immitate them... Gee, I wonder what kind of sale PGI could put on? Oh ya, lets put those tournament dominating mechs on sale! and to make sure players don't lose their investment too soon, lets ensure jump-sniping remains dominant for awhile so players don't complain of their investment being worthless.

Conspiracy right?

(I'm sorry to go off-topic so much but I really couldn't help myself...)

ggclose

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

Mhm. I'll address this in my upcoming proof of MWO's pay to win market and its consenting patrons.

You want to see consenting patrons?

[Sky Legacy]

Viges, on 24 June 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

Why DSs not with 2xPPC+2xAC5? Using gauss makes sense only for clanners atm (as I understand). And why some games 5 vs 4?

I believe it's because like I was saying to someone else these were not long distance 'poptart' sniping matches but more of a brawl. And in a brawl a Dragonslayer has to have at least one of its PPC's be a ERPPC otherwise there's a huge firepower output drop off below 90 meters since PPC's do zero damage below 90 meters. ERPPC brings up the heat alot and 2 AC5's are very hot compared to 1 gauss so I believe the gauss is their way of mitigating the extra heat of the brawling ERPPC build.

If you notice alot of the top players like Heimdelight play ranked team matches with 2xPPC 2xAC5 builds but when they fight 1 on 1 duels they use 1xERPPC, 1xPPC, 1xGauss builds for the above outlined reason.

[Bacl]

OK some people here are trying to defend the bad things in this game so i will try to clarify a few things.

Poptarting, jump sniping and jump brawling; we will start with the latest.

Jump brawling is for example a medium or light fighting an assault for instance, jumping will allow him to either evade the "kill spot" of that assault mech using 3D displacement and manouvers. I think ( this is my opinion) this is the only "legit" jump jets fighting style since they dont rely on diving behind cover for cheap shots, they are in the face of that mechs so for that it comes to pilots skills and also a bit of luck ( teammate, lrm cover, lucky hit name it.).

Now Jump sniping is, jumping, sniping then landing.

Poptarting is, jumping, shooting and landing down into cover. lets be honest guys, "jump sniping" is just a valueless argument from those who abbuse the META to look or feel less guilty. Also you would have to be damn stupid to not land behind cover after shooting dont you think? THERE IS NO JUMP SNIPING ( unless your not doing it right) there is only POPTARTS.

Now because of that broken mechanic only few mechs are chosen to be part of the META, even worse with the high alpha perfect convergence and even smaller groupe of mech are "la crème de la crème" because they can mount ballistic and energy for the infamous Gauss/ PPC or dual AC5/PPC combo.

So yeah, there is jump sniping and poptarting, i dont think so.... And the day you wont be able to shoot while in the air will be a glorious one! Btw, poptarting killed the multiplayer of all the MW games i played, from MW2 to the venerable MW4, i am flabbergasted by the fact PGI even introduced it.

While your at it, nerf ECM, remove ghost heat and add a freaking cone of fire.

Edited by Bacl, 24 June 2014 - 08:19 PM.

[Flyby215]

Vassago Rain, on 24 June 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:

ggclose



You want to see consenting patrons?

Wow! That's quite the list you have... gosh I wish I had a Legendary Founders tag to add to mine... curse PGI for not advertising more before-hand, I totally would have bought into it had I known sooner.

[Sky Legacy]

Bacl, on 24 June 2014 - 08:14 PM, said:

yadda yadda.......

That's one of the most ignorant posts I've seen yet on these forums. So basically what you just said is "ANYONE WHO USES JUMP JETS IS ABUSING THE GAME"

You do realize Jump Jets have always been part of lore, have been part of every mech game in history, etc? But according to you, only light mechs should be allowed to use Jump Jets?

It's sad that this type of misinformed ignorant poster confuses the subject for alot of people and obfuscates/muddies the waters of the important discussions.

[Felicitatem Parco]

So... Dual Gauss + PPC and Gauss + Dual PPC has been a mainstay in MWO since Closed Beta. This is not a "Clan" phenomenon.

Just wanted everyone to know that the first Meta Mech was the Catapult K2.

[Sky Legacy]

All you whiners who think jump jetting = poptarting need to quit the game now because jump jetting will NEVER change drastically and will never be taken out of the game. In fact the early reports from what I'm hearing on the new "jump jet nerf" is that as long as you have a good amount of jump jets equipped you are fine. I.e. I heard a Highlander with 5 JJ's equipped suffered very little fall damage in the public test. As such, you need to understand that PGI's view is that the "abuse" came from people equipping 1 or 2 JJ's and still being able to poptart with impunity. But anyone who invests the proper amount of tonnage into JJ's will continue to enjoy clear sailing and fun jumpsniping/jump brawling. If you don't like that then you will do well to quit the game to avoid further embarrassment.

[Vassago Rain]

Prosperity Park, on 24 June 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

So... Dual Gauss + PPC and Gauss + Dual PPC has been a mainstay in MWO since Closed Beta. This is not a "Clan" phenomenon.

Just wanted everyone to know that the first Meta Mech was the Catapult K2.

The issue is that it's the One true way. Actually, it's not the guns themselves that's the big problem, but that when confronted with a billion new weapons (clans), people instantly fall back on the old mainstay alpha striking frontloaded damage beefcake weapons bolted onto a highly mobile jump jet frame.

UACs, LBXs of every caliber, ER lasers, pulse lasers with double normal range, half weight missiles, half weight and functional SRMs, huge streak packs, machinegun boating...it's all worthless, because the game really only has One true way to victory, like early 5th edition 40k.

[Viges]

Sky Legacy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:

I believe it's because like I was saying to someone else these were not long distance 'poptart' sniping matches but more of a brawl. And in a brawl a Dragonslayer has to have at least one of its PPC's be a ERPPC otherwise there's a huge firepower output drop off below 90 meters since PPC's do zero damage below 90 meters. ERPPC brings up the heat alot and 2 AC5's are very hot compared to 1 gauss so I believe the gauss is their way of mitigating the extra heat of the brawling ERPPC build.

If you notice alot of the top players like Heimdelight play ranked team matches with 2xPPC 2xAC5 builds but when they fight 1 on 1 duels they use 1xERPPC, 1xPPC, 1xGauss builds for the above outlined reason.

I think clans are stronger in brawl, especially if they use max dps builds and just rush at the enemy. I'd like to see that kind of test against IS meta or anything. I dont think IS would have a chance.