164 replies to this topic

[Bacl]

Sky Legacy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

That's one of the most ignorant posts I've seen yet on these forums. So basically what you just said is "ANYONE WHO USES JUMP JETS IS ABUSING THE GAME"

You do realize Jump Jets have always been part of lore, have been part of every mech game in history, etc? But according to you, only light mechs should be allowed to use Jump Jets?

It's sad that this type of misinformed ignorant poster confuses the subject for alot of people and obfuscates/muddies the waters of the important discussions.

Lol you judge me but your totaly missing my point, i am not saying all mechs with Jump jets abuse the mechanic, i have a catapult C1 with JJ and twin lrm 15.

What i am saying is to be competitive or to almost ensure a victory you must go Jump jets with the ppc Ac or gauss combo. Thats it. High level player you wont see any laser boat Stalker, Awesomes, other Vraint of Atlases then the D-DC, T-Bolt cept the 5SS with jumpjets but even this guy lacking ballistic just dont cut it.

Also i know the lore pretty well, i also know the Jumpjets always been parts of it but the current game mechanic makes it way too strong compared to the mechs who cant follow the flow. Jump jets are great to place your mech in a tactical position, i use it on my C1 to have a better and clearer view and path for my LRM's.

Tell me sir, have you been that high on the ladder with your own builds or by following the META? My stats sucks because i idolise Stalkers and i m not scared to take it out but guess what a Cat 3D cat easily destroy a mech tougher and better armed because of a silly broken mechanic. That what we are tired of, what is the point of all these mechs if only a select few are usefull in low or more advanced games?

Cone of fire, adpative convergence, stand still and let it get smaller. In short, "pin-point accuracy" no matter what is killing the game and is pushing, no encouraging strongly players to only play a way.

Edited by Bacl, 24 June 2014 - 08:35 PM.

[Sky Legacy]

Viges, on 24 June 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

I think clans are stronger in brawl, especially if they use max dps builds and just rush at the enemy. I'd like to see that kind of test against IS meta or anything. I dont think IS would have a chance.

Well what are you suggesting exactly? I just told you that this series of matches WAS a brawl with the top meta on each side against each other and the Victors still beat out the Timberwolves. Keep in mind the Timberwolves even have the advantage considering they have 2 ERPPC's that do damage up close whereas the Victors only had 1 and they still owned

[Roland]

What's interesting is that the mech that's seemingly the closest match for the Madcat is the dragonslayer... an assault mech which you also need to pay real world money for.

[Sky Legacy]

Bacl, on 24 June 2014 - 08:29 PM, said:

Lol you judge me but your totaly missing my point, i am not saying all mechs with Jump jets abuse the mechanic, i have a catapult C1 with JJ and twin lrm 15.

What i am saying is to be competitive or to almost ensure a victory you must go Jump jets with the ppc Ac or gauss combo. Thats it. High level player you wont see any laser boat Stalker, Awesomes, other Vraint of Atlases then the D-DC, T-Bolt cept the 5SS with jumpjets but even this guy lacking ballistic just dont cut it.

Also i know the lore pretty well, i also know the Jumpjets always been parts of it but the current game mechanic makes it way too strong compared to the mechs who cant follow the flow. Jump jets are great to place your mech in a tactical position, i use it on my C1 to have a better and clearer view and path for my LRM's.

Tell me sir, have you been that high on the ladder with your own builds or by following the META? My stats sucks because i idolise Stalkers and i m not scared to take it out but guess what a Cat 3D cat easily destroy a mech tougher and better armed because of a silly broken mechanic. That what we are tired of, what is the point of all these mechs if only a select few are usefull in low or more advanced games?

Cone of fire, adpative convergence, stand still and let it get smaller. In short, "pin-point accuracy" no matter what is killing the game and is pushing, no encouraging strongly players to only play a way.

as you said it's the PPFLD (pin point front loaded damage, i.e. "burst" damage) that is the problem not the jump jets. Although in particular it's the synergy the two have. I think PGI is doing the wrong thing by nerfing jump jets. They should be kept as is, what should be nerfed is the ability to shoot accurately while flying so I think we are in agreement there. The simplest way to do that ofcourse is to add more shake in the air whether the jump jets are engaged or not. After all when you disengage your jump jets if you view from 3rd person you will note that the thrust does not instantly go away it very gradually dies down which means the shake so also more gradually die down giving less time for a pilot to shoot accurately in the air.

Roland, on 24 June 2014 - 08:38 PM, said:

What's interesting is that the mech that's seemingly the closest match for the Madcat is the dragonslayer... an assault mech which you also need to pay real world money for.

Don't forget the Dragon-9S can be purchased with Cbills and is identical to the DragonSlayer in every regard other than WHERE you place the weapons. So you can be just about as successful with a 9S as with a DS.

[Viges]

Sky Legacy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

Well what are you suggesting exactly? I just told you that this series of matches WAS a brawl with the top meta on each side against each other and the Victors still beat out the Timberwolves. Keep in mind the Timberwolves even have the advantage considering they have 2 ERPPC's that do damage up close whereas the Victors only had 1 and they still owned

First, I suggest more testing.
Second, in 2/3 matches 5vs5 clans won. And they weight less.

[Roland]

Quote

Don't forget the Dragon-9S can be purchased with Cbills and is identical to the DragonSlayer in every regard other than WHERE you place the weapons. So you can be just about as successful with a 9S as with a DS.

Oh, I realize.. although the DS seems to be generally regarded as a superior mech due to the location of the weapons.
Aside from the though, it's funny that the comparison against the Timberwolf is an assault mech.. because, with the new weight class matching, it means you'll see teams with 3 of each of them.

[Vassago Rain]

Roland, on 24 June 2014 - 08:38 PM, said:

What's interesting is that the mech that's seemingly the closest match for the Madcat is the dragonslayer... an assault mech which you also need to pay real world money for.

I think we all knew that's what they were going for when they announced the jumping variant.

This way, people like the LORDS will want to run 3 madcats with their 3 dragonslayers, since they're in different classes.

[Sybreed]

Sky Legacy, on 24 June 2014 - 07:02 PM, said:

all matches used "Meta" builds. Timberwolves with dual CERPPC and Gauss versus Dragonslayers with 1xERPPC, 1XPPC, 1xGauss

sounds pretty freaking boring to me.

[Sky Legacy]

Viges, on 24 June 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

First, I suggest more testing.
Second, in 2/3 matches 5vs5 clans won. And they weight less.

That is true although their margin of victory was always less than when the victors won which was often a total wipe

[Vassago Rain]

Sky Legacy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

as you said it's the PPFLD (pin point front loaded damage, i.e. "burst" damage) that is the problem not the jump jets. Although in particular it's the synergy the two have. I think PGI is doing the wrong thing by nerfing jump jets. They should be kept as is, what should be nerfed is the ability to shoot accurately while flying so I think we are in agreement there. The simplest way to do that ofcourse is to add more shake in the air whether the jump jets are engaged or not. After all when you disengage your jump jets if you view from 3rd person you will note that the thrust does not instantly go away it very gradually dies down which means the shake so also more gradually die down giving less time for a pilot to shoot accurately in the air.


Don't forget the Dragon-9S can be purchased with Cbills and is identical to the DragonSlayer in every regard other than WHERE you place the weapons. So you can be just about as successful with a 9S as with a DS.

It's the weapon placement that makes the slayer so OP. You put all your guns on one side (sword), and use the other for blocking (board). If you go up against my identically armed 9S, you blow one arm off, and half my guns are gone.

That's why no one uses them when they can run the slayer, brah. They're not comparable at all, but one of the highlanders was basically a slower, slightly tougher c-bill slayer. With the huge agility nerf, it's not really all that popular anymore.

[Sky Legacy]

Sybreed, on 24 June 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

sounds pretty freaking boring to me.

No one's forcing you to play the game that way. You may continue playing your Awesome 8Q

[Flyby215]

Sky Legacy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

That's one of the most ignorant posts I've seen yet on these forums. So basically what you just said is "ANYONE WHO USES JUMP JETS IS ABUSING THE GAME"

You do realize Jump Jets have always been part of lore, have been part of every mech game in history, etc? But according to you, only light mechs should be allowed to use Jump Jets?

It's sad that this type of misinformed ignorant poster confuses the subject for alot of people and obfuscates/muddies the waters of the important discussions.

Sky Legacy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

All you whiners who think jump jetting = poptarting need to quit the game now because jump jetting will NEVER change drastically and will never be taken out of the game. In fact the early reports from what I'm hearing on the new "jump jet nerf" is that as long as you have a good amount of jump jets equipped you are fine. I.e. I heard a Highlander with 5 JJ's equipped suffered very little fall damage in the public test. As such, you need to understand that PGI's view is that the "abuse" came from people equipping 1 or 2 JJ's and still being able to poptart with impunity. But anyone who invests the proper amount of tonnage into JJ's will continue to enjoy clear sailing and fun jumpsniping/jump brawling. If you don't like that then you will do well to quit the game to avoid further embarrassment.

Well hang on here, I was rather enjoying our back and forth up til here, no need to rain on anyone's parade or opinion.

The majority of people I play with are in the same boat as myself; where we love the game, we want to play our many owned mechs, we want to try our many builds and strategies, but we run up against the wall known as "meta". The screenshots you provided us at the start of the post are a sure fire sign that the meta is alive and well despite the clan arrival; as Vassago already pointed out. As I said, and as bacl said, there's no love lost from any of us if this meta goes the way of the dinosaurs; mainly because, as many of the tournaments (official and community run) have demonstrated, the best way to counter meta is with meta. Regrettably, there seems to be only one viable meta right now, and its running amok among those who want nothing to do with it. (my opinion anyway, I'm sure there's many who will back me up on it) (granted, not all of them read the forums so said statement might be moot).

WRT to "quit to avoid further embarrassment", well that's not going to happen anytime soon. I just poke fun at the meta-users by stating "got enuf poptarts there?" or "ggsorta" when I run into the meta-wall; but otherwise I will continue to play my balanced and varied mechs better replicating lore and immersion.

(At the time I am posting this I get the feeling my comments will be outdated!)

[Sky Legacy]

Vassago Rain, on 24 June 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

It's the weapon placement that makes the slayer so OP. You put all your guns on one side (sword), and use the other for blocking (board). If you go up against my identically armed 9S, you blow one arm off, and half my guns are gone.

That's why no one uses them when they can run the slayer, brah. They're not comparable at all, but one of the highlanders was basically a slower, slightly tougher c-bill slayer. With the huge agility nerf, it's not really all that popular anymore.

While I mostly agree and know about all that the problem with what you're saying is that the Timberwolf is currently the go to meta and it has weapons in both arms so your theory flies right out the window considering the Timberwolf has no "board" arm as you call it and yet is still considered "OP" as the current #1 go to meta brawler/sniper

[Sybreed]

Sky Legacy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

No one's forcing you to play the game that way. You may continue playing your Awesome 8Q

phew

[Waelsleaht]

Roland, on 24 June 2014 - 08:38 PM, said:

What's interesting is that the mech that's seemingly the closest match for the Madcat is the dragonslayer... an assault mech which you also need to pay real world money for.

wich they also need 5 to win 3/5 matches.

[Bacl]

Sky Legacy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

as you said it's the PPFLD (pin point front loaded damage, i.e. "burst" damage) that is the problem not the jump jets. Although in particular it's the synergy the two have. I think PGI is doing the wrong thing by nerfing jump jets. They should be kept as is, what should be nerfed is the ability to shoot accurately while flying so I think we are in agreement there. The simplest way to do that ofcourse is to add more shake in the air whether the jump jets are engaged or not. After all when you disengage your jump jets if you view from 3rd person you will note that the thrust does not instantly go away it very gradually dies down which means the shake so also more gradually die down giving less time for a pilot to shoot accurately in the air.


Don't forget the Dragon-9S can be purchased with Cbills and is identical to the DragonSlayer in every regard other than WHERE you place the weapons. So you can be just about as successful with a 9S as with a DS.

You see now were starting to get on the same waves. Poptarting is a symptom not the cause but it is taking all the place and it is the way to go if you want to be succesful in this game. Call me a scrub i dont care but in all the games i play i am a theorycrafter, i design builds. Some are great and sometimes you get on the other side of the "meh" line. In this game dont even bother, either you mount ECM or JJ for poptarting our unless you have lady luck on your side you dont stand a chance against a team that run these 2. In PUGs games its terrible because of that reason.

Hell i even get called a noob or a bad player because i run my Awesome 8Q or Catapult K-2 without ballistics ( ERPPC's x2) and i am suddenly a burden for my team, and i am unless i play the meatshield.

[Vassago Rain]

Sky Legacy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

While I mostly agree and know about all that the problem with what you're saying is that the Timberwolf is currently the go to meta and it has weapons in both arms so your theory flies right out the window considering the Timberwolf has no "board" arm as you call it and yet is still considered "OP" as the current #1 go to meta brawler/sniper

Madcat totally lets you sword and board. Put the gauss in either side, and the ER PPCs in either arm as you see fit. S torsos let you put ballistics in both. Prime arms give 2 energy each.

ggclose

Edit: I took the liberty of making a right handed one for you - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fb01f3b6e674529

Edited by Vassago Rain, 24 June 2014 - 08:56 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Sky Legacy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

You do realize Jump Jets have always been part of lore, have been part of every mech game in history, etc? But according to you, only light mechs should be allowed to use Jump Jets?

Actually I have played the Battletech (this is Mechwarrior: A Battletech Game we are talking about correct), and no you could not use jump jets they way they are used in this game, and even then they were so powerful that the game designers recognized 30 years ago, that they had to mitigated with both heat an targeting penalties.

But that is really inconsequential, because we are talking about MWO, and the negative impact that jump jets have had on the game in general. What is the one thing common in every mech in the last tournament? what was the singular requirement for every mech in this Dragon Slayer vs. Timberwolf matchup? Jump Jets. And when something is so universally necessary that is a good indicator that it has a balance problem.

I doubt anyone will be able to convince you otherwise, and you will continue to ponder why PGI bothers to make and sell mechs that don't have jump jets, when it is the most important feature in the game, but don't be surprised when they get 'nerfed' back to their Battletech level of usefulness (which is still pretty damn useful).

[Roland]

Waelsleaht, on 24 June 2014 - 08:51 PM, said:

wich they also need 5 to win 3/5 matches.

But they are in different weight classes.

The result here is that a dominant team is going to be comprised of something like 3 DS's and 3 Madcats.

And while you can theoretically field a lesser victor and achieve similar results, the madcat is gonna be behind a paywall for months... so competitive teams are basically going to have to pay money to compete.

That's less than ideal.

[Waelsleaht]

Sky Legacy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

While I mostly agree and know about all that the problem with what you're saying is that the Timberwolf is currently the go to meta and it has weapons in both arms so your theory flies right out the window considering the Timberwolf has no "board" arm as you call it and yet is still considered "OP" as the current #1 go to meta brawler/sniper

My tbr-c has a board arm. Just gota change obe torso or arm and you can even pick left or right side.