513 replies to this topic

[Corralis]

Vassago Rain, on 24 June 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

Paying to win doesn't mean you literally win by default. Not even aimbot suites for counter-strike instantly win the game for you.

So if 'Pay-to-win' doesn't actually mean pay-to-win then why do they call it pay-to-win?

Someone needs to come up with a new term.

Oh I know let's call it 'pay-to-get-new-mech's-that-no-one-else-that-doesn't-pay-can-get'

Or how about 'Pay-to-instantly-make-the-self-intitled-fuckoes-who-think-they're-entitled-to-get-everything-for-free-mad-at-you'

Edited by Corralis, 24 June 2014 - 09:26 PM.

[cSand]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

This is not something you should be saying to a Founder. It makes you look like a jerk.

So is your (F) mech PTW then? Since you paid for it and nobody else can have one? Really that's the ultimate PTW, since it will never be available to anyone else right? Or is your whole post hypocritical, mindless QQing?

One or the other here brosef. There isn't really a grey area.

Been here just as long as you, and put in more than my share of cash

Edited by cSand, 24 June 2014 - 09:26 PM.

[FupDup]

Corralis, on 24 June 2014 - 09:22 PM, said:

So if 'Pay-to-win' doesn't actually mean pay-to-win then why do they call it pay-to-win?

"Pay to Win" is generally used as an exaggeration. The true definition (used by almost everyone) is that you pay real life money for some kind of tactical/combat advantage -- no matter how small -- that cannot be acquired without real life money.

For example, if PGI made something like "Gold Medium Lasers" for MWO that dealt 6 damage (all other stats identical to normal MLas) and were MC-only, they would fit the criteria of P2W.



*Disclaimer: This post is not intended to state my position regarding the Clan or Hero mechs currently in-game. I am simply defining the acronym P2W.*

[Atheus]

Tezcatli, on 24 June 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

Yeah. But I mean actual videos. Not some second hearsay about what top players think.

All it takes to prove is one guy who says he likes to play with lasers and so Clan tech works out better for him. Do you think it will be hard to find someone like that, because that one guy is paying for an advantage. Heck, I would be that guy myself if I bought Clan tech, but I'm pretty opposed to P2W, so that's not happening.

cSand, on 24 June 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

So is your (F) mech PTW then? Since you paid for it and nobody else can have one? Really that's the ultimate PTW, since it will never be available to anyone else right? Or is your whole post hypocritical, mindless QQing?

One or the other here brosef. There isn't really a grey area.

Been here just as long as you, and likely put in more cashola.

You have no idea what you're talking about, and you are definitely embracing the whole looking like a jerk thing. To answer your question, no, founders mechs are not pay to win, because aside from the paint and the 25% c-bill bonus, they are identical to other C-Bill variants.

[cSand]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

You have no idea what you're talking about, and you are definitely embracing the whole looking like a jerk thing. To answer your question, no, founders mechs are not pay to win, because aside from the paint and the 25% c-bill bonus, they are identical to other C-Bill variants.

I dunno

One of us has been playing almost every day since the 17th, with both a clan mech and many IS variants.

The other complains on the forums about something he has no actual experience with

Edited by cSand, 24 June 2014 - 09:34 PM.

[Ngamok]

If you believe clan mechs are P2W then you really don't know. Clan mechs do not make a bad player, good. You can go out right now in your super duper IS mechs and do just as good as you did before if you played smart every match (and dumped your strikes on people same as before).

Also, to your DS and the recent competition. I believe any player that can pilot a VTR-DS effectively can also do it in the HGN-733C which has the EXACT same hard point location as the DS, including the missiles (exception being the DS has 1E in the LA instead of 1M like the 733C has).

Also the Victor's tosro and arms are 90/20 and 20/30 degrees where as the Highlander's is 90/20 and 10/30. But you know what, you are lining up a shot with your torso. The extra 10 degrees with the Victor is for braling but at that point, you can't use your PPC anyways usally because a smart pilot will stay under 90m to avoid them.

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

All it takes to prove is one guy who says he likes to play with lasers and so Clan tech works out better for him. Do you think it will be hard to find someone like that, because that one guy is paying for an advantage. Heck, I would be that guy myself if I bought Clan tech, but I'm pretty opposed to P2W, so that's not happening.


You have no idea what you're talking about, and you are definitely embracing the whole looking like a jerk thing. To answer your question, no, founders mechs are not pay to win, because aside from the paint and the 25% c-bill bonus, they are identical to other C-Bill variants.

The clan mechs are also identical to the clan mechs you will have available in 5 weeks to a few months. because they are out earlier to those who paid for them for early access in NOT P2W. P2W means you will never have access to the item unless it was bought with real money and not available in any other form and gave the player a power advantage ie. gold ammo that does 2x damage.

[Libas]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

• Strong mechs have a greater chance of winning than weak mechs.(what is strong for you? a fast light mech, a DDC Atlas?, a Gauss+ppc sniper? generic and most of the builts can be made in a lot of mechs)
  
• Players generally prefer a strong mech to a weak mech. (ok i wont even say anything about this one but really??)
  
• Players will attempt to design the strongest mech they can to suit their current play style, or the play style they would like to adopt. (again.... what is your point?)
  
• In a competition setting, players will choose the mech they feel gives their team the best chance of winning. (what competition?, pugs are competion? private drops? usually players choose mechs they like to play at least from what i see with my TS friends at 286thhd)
  
• Pay to Win means that something that is only available for cash can provide an advantage that can not be duplicated by an equivalent non-cash item. (Can you prove that clan mechs or hero mechs provide advantage ?, bet nope, have you ever bothered to have a look in game and say i was in 100 drops and DS did 5 kills per drop or something, keep stats that actually can be proofs of what you state here?... no this is just an opinion of yours.. )
  
• Providing a date at which a pay-to-win item will be available for in-game currency does not change the pay-to-win nature of said item in the present. (for me the game is not pay to win , it is pay if you want to play some mechs earlier than some others, does that provides any advantage? have some prooves and then we can talk, generic opinion i dont have clan mechs so it is pay to win is at least bad.)

[Corralis]

I didn't buy Clan mech's because I wanted to win. I know for a fact that they would get nerfed to all hell for one. I bought them because they look freaking cool. No other reason.

Now that I actually have Clan mech's and have played with them exclusively since the launch I can tell you without any doubt in my mind that they are not pay-to-win. Why? Because they give me no advantage against IS mech's, none whatsoever. Building a Clan Mech is actually a very difficult thing to do because you have a limited amount of pod space and you must use it, you have static slots that are blocking you from putting stuff in that you want to use and you have no choice of the engine you want to use. You are actually at a massive disadvantage to IS mech's in term's of building options. But, to counter that you have the ability to change certain hardpoints around and even then you must choose between the omni slots that have been made available to you.

Seriously buy a Clan Mech and you will see what I mean but until you have, don't scream p2w cause it's getting so old now.

[Atheus]

Ngamok, on 24 June 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

If you believe clan mechs are P2W then you really don't know. Clan mechs do not make a bad player, good. You can go out right now in your super duper IS mechs and do just as good as you did before if you played smart every match (and dumped your strikes on people same as before).

Also, to your DS and the recent competition. I believe any player that can pilot a VTR-DS effectively can also do it in the HGN-733C which has the EXACT same hard point location as the DS, including the missiles (exception being the DS has 1E in the LA instead of 1M like the 733C has).

Also the Victor's tosro and arms are 90/20 and 20/30 degrees where as the Highlander's is 90/20 and 10/30. But you know what, you are lining up a shot with your torso. The extra 10 degrees with the Victor is for braling but at that point, you can't use your PPC anyways usally because a smart pilot will stay under 90m to avoid them.



The clan mechs are also identical to the clan mechs you will have available in 5 weeks to a few months. because they are out earlier to those who paid for them for early access in NOT P2W. P2W means you will never have access to the item unless it was bought with real money and not available in any other form and gave the player a power advantage ie. gold ammo that does 2x damage.

So basically your refutation is that you say I'm wrong because you think I'm wrong.

The proof is in the pudding. They could put the exact same weapons in a 733C, but they didn't. There is a reason for that, and I can guarantee it isn't the 30% C-Bill bonus, or the lower armor values. What could it be? Who knows, but whatever it is, it made just about all of them choose a DS.

I don't assert that the clan mechs now are different from the clan mechs in 5 months, nor do I need to.

[cSand]

Wait.

I just had a shocking revelation.

This whole game is PTW - I have given PGI some money at times, and at times I have won matches.

Technically, I paid to win those matches.

F**K ME, I blew my own mind. All this time I've been wrong.

I'm sorry

I'm going to bed soon and I'll quit winding you up

Edited by cSand, 24 June 2014 - 09:50 PM.

[Corralis]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

So basically your refutation is that you say I'm wrong because you think I'm wrong.

The proof is in the pudding. They could put the exact same weapons in a 733C, but they didn't. There is a reason for that, and I can guarantee it isn't the 30% C-Bill bonus, or the lower armor values. What could it be? Who knows, but whatever it is, it made just about all of them choose a DS.

I don't assert that the clan mechs now are different from the clan mechs in 5 months, nor do I need to.

No one else on this forum agrees with you dude, so does that still make you right or wrong?

[Ngamok]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

So basically your refutation is that you say I'm wrong because you think I'm wrong.

The proof is in the pudding. They could put the exact same weapons in a 733C, but they didn't. There is a reason for that, and I can guarantee it isn't the 30% C-Bill bonus, or the lower armor values. What could it be? Who knows, but whatever it is, it made just about all of them choose a DS.

I don't assert that the clan mechs now are different from the clan mechs in 5 months, nor do I need to.

It's the lower weight because they had 720 tons to work with for 12 people. Taking 90 tons over 80 tons would hurt the team. It's also the extra 10 KPH?

Edited by Ngamok, 24 June 2014 - 09:51 PM.

[Monsoon]

Too bad this isn't reddit, I so wish there were a down-vote for threads like this....

[Corralis]

Ngamok, on 24 June 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

It's the lower weight because they had 720 tons to work with for 12 people. Taking 90 tons over 80 tons would hurt the team. It's also the extra 10 KPH?

The dragon slayer also fits the 'meta' build for the game and people running competitions are always gonna use the 'meta' build. If there was another mech that even better fitted the 'meta' build people would be running those. So your gonna see a lot of pay to win cries from people cause the Timberwolf is gonna be the new 'meta' mech.

[Vassago Rain]

cSand, on 24 June 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

So is your (F) mech PTW then? Since you paid for it and nobody else can have one? Really that's the ultimate PTW, since it will never be available to anyone else right? Or is your whole post hypocritical, mindless QQing?

One or the other here brosef. There isn't really a grey area.

Been here just as long as you, and put in more than my share of cash

The founder robots are the exact same robots that you can buy for c-bills, with a 25% c-bill increase.

They don't even get different hardpoints. Remember, they were made before the position changed that cash robots should be completely different to normal ones.

[Atheus]

Corralis, on 24 June 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

No one else on this forum agrees with you dude, so does that still make you right or wrong?

http://en.wikipedia....ntum_ad_populum
Even if you were right, it would be neither.

Ngamok, on 24 June 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

It's the lower weight because they had 720 tons to work with for 12 people. Taking 90 tons over 80 tons would hurt the team.

So there's an advantage to taking the Victor instead of the Highlander if your objective is to help the team win within the rules of the game.

[cSand]

Vassago Rain, on 24 June 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

The founder robots are the exact same robots that you can buy for c-bills, with a 25% c-bill increase.

They don't even get different hardpoints. Remember, they were made before the position changed that cash robots should be completely different to normal ones.

Yes but the ballin paintjob can distract some players more

hence PTW

[Deathz Jester]

Man.... mechbays are pay to win, anyone who buys a mechbay is a cheating *******, i mean come on. All that empty space FOR A MECH??!!?!?!? You people disgust me, paying real money for a mechbay, and for what? So you can have more mechs? You selfish ******** having jobs and income, god... quit spending the money you earned on things you want.

Spoiler

If you couldn't tell, that was sarcasm

[cSand]

Iron Harlequin, on 24 June 2014 - 10:00 PM, said:

Man.... mechbays are pay to win, anyone who buys a mechbay is a cheating *******, i mean come on. All that empty space FOR A MECH??!!?!?!? You people disgust me, paying real money for a mechbay, and for what? So you can have more mechs? You selfish ******** having jobs and income, god... quit spending the money you earned on things you want.

Spoiler

If you couldn't tell, that was sarcasm

I know right

[Ngamok]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

So there's an advantage to taking the Victor instead of the Highlander if your objective is to help the team win within the rules of the game.

What was the most common mech in the tournament? It was the CTF-3D. To say that the VTR-DS played an instrumental role that led a team to victory is asinine because there is no way to quantify something like that.