513 replies to this topic

[Sephlock]

@ OP: The tale at the beginning is for you.

[Corralis]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....ntum_ad_populum
Even if you were right, it would be neither.

So there's an advantage to taking the Victor instead of the Highlander if your objective is to help the team win within the rules of the game.

So the whole point of this post is what exactly? You say you have proof that this game is pay-to-win but I see nothing but your opinion. No one else has agreed with you and you have given no proof to support your theory other than one single mech that has to be bought with cash out of the hundreds of mech's available. So you bought a Founder's Mech because you wanted the extra 25% c-bills, you wanted an advantage over other players who didn't buy into the founders program. By your logic, regardless of the fact that it is the exact same mech as you can by with c-bills, you have payed for an advantage over other players because by using that mech you have gained the ability to progress faster than a none paying player. You are a hypocrite.

[NextGame]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

The debate over whether clan tech is P2W has been raging for days now. I finally realized that it's quite easy to prove the P2W status of clan tech. This line of reasoning was inspired by the intensely popular Dragon Slayer Victor.

• Strong mechs have a greater chance of winning than weak mechs.
  
• Players generally prefer a strong mech to a weak mech.
  
• Players will attempt to design the strongest mech they can to suit their current play style, or the play style they would like to adopt.
  
• In a competition setting, players will choose the mech they feel gives their team the best chance of winning.
  
• Pay to Win means that something that is only available for cash can provide an advantage that can not be duplicated by an equivalent non-cash item.
  
• Providing a date at which a pay-to-win item will be available for in-game currency does not change the pay-to-win nature of said item in the present.

A Dragon Slayer Victor is very similar in hard points to the VTR-9S, but in a competition setting you'll see almost exclusively DS variants. The reasons are obvious to anyone familiar with the chassis. They're amazingly good pop-tarts, and pop-tarts win competitions. But the reason they choose the DS over the 9S is because of the different positioning of the ballistic hard points. The pilots understand that having the weapons all on the right side is an advantage, and so as not to fall behind other pilots who have that advantage, they purchase and use the DS. This example is funny since they are not paying to win, they're paying to not lose to the other guys who paid to win. Their choice of the DS makes it impossible to deny that they are paying for advantages that are not available for C-Bills. Therefore, by choosing that mech to use to win tournaments, they confirm that in their most honest analysis, their best option is the DS, therefore confirming their own consent to PGI's pay to win game structure.

Stepping away from the tournament, let's have a look at Clan tech. It is available immediately for cash, but will gradually become available in the C-Bill market between August and November. That's 2 months before the first clan mech is available for C-Bills, and 5 until the last is released.

Clan tech has many unique attributes. Nearly all attributes deviate from IS tech, and while most of them are pros, some are cons. The question is how do we figure out which is better overall? Well fortunately we don't need to come up with a consensus on which is better. Individual players will decide the answer based on their own estimations of what will best suit their play style. Some will be wrong, and make bad choices, but some will be right, and make good choices. Of the ones who are right, some will choose IS, and others will choose Clan. I can not irrefutably prove the existence of players who will both choose clan and be correct, but I do feel it is a reasonable assertion that such a player can exist, and most likely does exist — possibly in large numbers.

I'd like to point out that it does not matter whether this hypothetical player is highly skilled, or modestly skilled. The question is whether Clan tech will improve their ability to kill enemies and/or win matches. If they can build a mech that is better suited to killing/winning using their play style with Clan tech than they can build using IS tech, they serve as living proof that Clan tech can indeed provide an advantage to certain players that currently can not be acquired with C-Bills.

Is this Clan advantage universal to all players? Maybe not. It doesn't particularly matter, though. Some players may find Clan tech does not suit their play style. That does not mean that other players can not boost their combat potential using clan tech. Thus, whether or not you feel you can personally benefit from Clan tech, you should absolutely recognize that it is a pay to win element that will continue to be just that until all of it is available for C-Bills.

Pretty Baby, Grid Iron, Death Snail and similar are delighted that you think they are great.

[Atheus]

Ngamok, on 24 June 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

What was the most common mech in the tournament? It was the CTF-3D. To say that the VTR-DS played an instrumental role that led a team to victory is asinine because there is no way to quantify something like that.

Your assertion is laughable. We can see clearly what the victors contributed because it's in the score screen, but that doesn't even matter. What matters is that the players CHOSE the Victor because in their estimation, that was the best mech they could use to do their job. In their own mind, there was no other mech that would provide a greater advantage than the one they were in. Whether or not they were correct, that was obviously what they thought. As a result, when they showed up with their wallets to buy those mechs, they were signing up for one in-game advantage in the form of a VTR-DS. Otherwise, they would be in something else. They paid for an advantage, whether or not it panned out.

NextGame, on 24 June 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

Pretty Baby, Grid Iron, Death Snail and similar are delighted that you think they are great.

You're misunderstanding, and it's probably something I should clarify. Hero mechs have the potential to be pay to win since they are paid only content.

Edit: A player becomes a pay to win patron the instant they buy a hero mech with the idea that it will provide some sort of advantage to them for a particular job. They are paying for an advantage when it comes to doing that job which most likely is perceived as being helpful to victory.

The mech itself becomes pay to win when there is good evidence to support that not only is it perceived to be at an advantage for that job, but that it in fact does have an advantage. The DS has clearly reached the point where it is hard to contest that it has advantages that are drawing competitive players to use it as their first choice.

Edited by Atheus, 24 June 2014 - 10:22 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Ngamok, on 24 June 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

What was the most common mech in the tournament? It was the CTF-3D. To say that the VTR-DS played an instrumental role that led a team to victory is asinine because there is no way to quantify something like that.

The most common mechs were slayers and embers, but everybody also ran 3Ds as their heavy.

If the tournament took place today, it'd have all the slayers and embers, but the 3Ds would be madcats.

Above picture is from the finals between LORDS and steel jags, which LORDS won.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 24 June 2014 - 10:15 PM.

[Goose of Prey]

Quote

IF you don't wanna pay, that's fine, but make sure you STFU and wait while the rest of who bankroll your f**king experience get rewarded (rightly so) for it

I've put over $300 into this game in 18 months. You can take your STFU and cram it back into your pie hole. You have no right telling anyone on this board to STFU, you have no idea what they have paid into this system. Which btw includes these forums.

What is it about people around here? FTP players bring the freaking game. Without them our numbers would be too small to have a MWO in the first place. Clanners got their free extras, their pt, and banners, and so on. All some are asking is PGI step-up a release that allows people who have been playing the game and been paid in in game credit (C-bills) to be allowed to spend their hard earned credits on a new release.

You get nothing less. Everyone gets more. Some people can't seem to understand that.

[Ngamok]

Vassago Rain, on 24 June 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

The most common mechs were slayers and embers, but everybody also ran 3Ds as their heavy.

If the tournament took place today, it'd have all the slayers and embers, but the 3Ds would be madcats.

Above picture is from the finals between LORDS and steel jags, which LORDS won.

Not true. Throughout the entire tournament, the most common mech was the CTF-3D. I said tournament, not final match. A tournament represents more than 1 match.

[Corralis]

Goose of Prey, on 24 June 2014 - 10:16 PM, said:

I've put over $300 into this game in 18 months. You can take your STFU and cram it back into your pie hole. You have no right telling anyone on this board to STFU, you have no idea what they have paid into this system. Which btw includes these forums.

What is it about people around here? FTP players bring the freaking game. Without them our numbers would be too small to have a MWO in the first place. Clanners got their free extras, their pt, and banners, and so on. All some are asking is PGI step-up a release that allows people who have been playing the game and been paid in in game credit (C-bills) to be allowed to spend their hard earned credits on a new release.

You get nothing less. Everyone gets more. Some people can't seem to understand that.

Nope, don't agree because it seems as though the most complaining about this game is being done by the people who do not want to pay to play this game and IMO they do not have the right to complain for something they are not paying for.

OK fine you don't want to buy into the Clan Mech release, don't, but don't complain about the people that do.

[Atheus]

Ngamok, on 24 June 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

Not true. Throughout the entire tournament, the most common mech was the CTF-3D. I said tournament, not final match. A tournament represents more than 1 match.

It doesn't require a total consensus on what is the best mech in the game for this theory to be correct. Players can choose the CTF-3D as their best mech without changing the fact that the ones who chose the VRT-DS felt individually that was their very best option for their team, or their team felt that way; and that option has a price tag in real dollars.

[Atheus]

Corralis, on 24 June 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

Nope, don't agree because it seems as though the most complaining about this game is being done by the people who do not want to pay to play this game and IMO they do not have the right to complain for something they are not paying for.

OK fine you don't want to buy into the Clan Mech release, don't, but don't complain about the people that do.

How much money does someone have to pay before they get to say they have a stake in the game? Is there a schedule on which they have to pay to be allowed to continue to have an opinion? If they choose not to buy something because they feel it represents a corruption of the game's integrity which poses a significant threat of diminishing the player base by upsetting the balance between the players who made said purchase and those who didn't, does that mean they then don't have the right to complain?

You may have noticed all these questions are rhetorical. Show your fellow players some respect. It isn't greed that drives these forums.

FupDup, on 24 June 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

Which is why the underlying causes of their advantages should be remedied.

I should have responded to this earlier, but the underlying cause is that when you release unique variants of every mech, occasionally those unique variants are going to be better suited to doing something worth doing in a match. DS just happened to hit the jackpot for the pop-tart scene, but there are plenty of others which shake the balance on other stages, and I'm sure that will continue to happen in the future so long as hero mechs have unique hard points and attributes.

Edited by Atheus, 24 June 2014 - 10:54 PM.

[Corralis]

OK I get it now, a game is pay-to-win when an individual buys something that no one else can get without spending real money that will allow him to play the game in a way that suits that persons individual play-style? No that is not P2W, that person has not gained an advantage over other players, he has simply paid real money to be able to play the game the way he wants to. Nothing more. The fact that a lot of other people want to play the game in that very same way and are willing to pay real money to allow that just means that that mech is suited to that particular play-style and a lot of people are willing to support this game and buy something they can use.

[qki]

So DS victors and clan mechs make up 100% of the competetive scene, and it is impossible to duplicate their results in any "free" mech?

I'll grant you, that they are good, and free players certainly have much more limited options than those willing to fork over some cash, but the question is not whether a particular player will achieve better results using clan tech or a DS victor, but whether anyone using the non-premium stuff can produce an equally viable loadout.

[darkkterror]

Okay, let's put this thing to bed once and for all. Determining whether or not Clan mechs are P2W is simple. See here:

1) You must pay to have them
2) You can win a match in them

Therefore, they are clearly P2W. I don't see how anyone could possibly refute this logic! It's so simple; it astonishes me that this debate has had to carry on through so many threads!

[Corralis]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 10:48 PM, said:

How much money does someone have to pay before they get to say they have a stake in the game? Is there a schedule on which they have to pay to be allowed to continue to have an opinion? If they choose not to buy something because they feel it represents a corruption of the game's integrity which poses a significant threat of diminishing the player base by upsetting the balance between the players who made said purchase and those who didn't, does that mean they then don't have the right to complain?

You may have noticed all these questions are rhetorical. Show your fellow players some respect. It isn't greed that drives these forums.

Yea I realise these questions are rhetorical but I'm gonna answer them anyway.

1. Any amount will do.
2.Nope.
3.Yes, the fact you choose not to buy something is your choice and you have the right to make that choice. Complaining about people that do is your problem.

And don't you think it's a bit late to be complaining about a mech that has been out for months?

The concept of P2W is simple, if I spend real money to be more powerful in a game than some one who does not and the game allows me to do that then the game is P2W. Piloting the VTR-DS does not make me more powerful than anyone else in this game, I don't suddenly gain more armor than another 80 ton mech, my weapons do not do more damage than a non paying player's do. I do not gain an advantage by buying this Mech, just a new play-style.

[FupDup]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 10:48 PM, said:

I should have responded to this earlier, but the underlying cause is that when you release unique variants of every mech, occasionally those unique variants are going to be better suited to doing something worth doing in a match. DS just happened to hit the jackpot for the pop-tart scene, but there are plenty of others which shake the balance on other stages, and I'm sure that will continue to happen in the future so long as hero mechs have unique hard points and attributes.

For the specific "holy trinity" of Inner Sphere heroes that generally outclasses C-Bill versions, the causes of their dominance is as follows:

Dragon Slayer: Energy (PPC) hardpoints are close to the ballistic hardpoints, allowing for better convergence exploitation while jumpsniping. Also, the left side of the mech can be used as a meat shield because of not having weapons in it.

Misery: The missiles on the C-Bill variants aren't always worthwhile due to the current state of missiles compared to direct fire. Also, the whole right side of the mech can be used as a meatshield if you pack the PPCs on the left (with the AC/20 or Gauss).

Ember: The C-Bill Firestarters (and Jenner F, while we're at it) have a hard time sustaining more than ~5-6 Medium Lasers. This hero gets MGs to use while it cools down, and the MLas also break through armor for the MGs to eat the internals (synergy combo).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The potential solutions for each case might include but are not limited to:

Dragon Slayer: Some kind of across the board poptarting nerf. There are many out there, so pick your favorite flavor. Heck, maybe even let the C-Bill Victors get their pre-nerf agility back, while leaving the DS as being as responsive as an Atlas.

Misery: Improve the viability of missiles somehow. All Stalkers are tough anyways, so the Misery getting the right side as a shield isn't that big of a deal.

Ember: Reduce MLas heat back down to its original level of 3 (and maybe SLas back down to 1), and perhaps even give us 2.0 external DHS. This would help the laser boat C-Bill Firestarters keep fighting rather than hitting the inevitable "heat wall" where they have to cease fire for a little bit.

Edited by FupDup, 24 June 2014 - 11:04 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

The debate over whether clan tech is P2W has been raging for days now.

Sooo you made ANOTHER thread instead of posting in any of them?

[Atheus]

Corralis, on 24 June 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

OK I get it now, a game is pay-to-win when an individual buys something that no one else can get without spending real money that will allow him to play the game in a way that suits that persons individual play-style? No that is not P2W, that person has not gained an advantage over other players, he has simply paid real money to be able to play the game the way he wants to. Nothing more. The fact that a lot of other people want to play the game in that very same way and are willing to pay real money to allow that just means that that mech is suited to that particular play-style and a lot of people are willing to support this game and buy something they can use.

If they're paying in because they think they're going to do a better job with that exclusive content, then what else can you call it? I have bought plenty of mechs out of sheer boredom, but at the end of the day I'm always going to run the strongest mech that suits my mood. I'm never going to just run my HBK-4P with 3 medium lasers for the hell of it. If I'm going to run the HBK-4P I'm going to build it as well as it can be built. If there's a clan mech that I have which does pretty much the same thing but better, which one am I going to pick? Yeah, it may take some experimentation to come to a solid conclusion of which one is better, but once I figure out that one is flat out inferior to the other, I'm not going to go back to piloting the inferior one just to experience the joy of playing at a disadvantage.

If I happen to decide that the best mech for the way I want to play is one that's behind a pay wall, then jumping over that pay wall is nothing short of pay for advantage. I can't honestly say to anyone else that it isn't, and whose opinion am I going to go on? Mine! I'm the guy who decided Mech C was the right choice, so what business do I have telling people that by my own estimation I'm not paying for advantage: I just happen to play better in a mech that other people can't get for C-Bills? It's dishonest.

FupDup, on 24 June 2014 - 11:02 PM, said:

For the specific "holy trinity" of Inner Sphere heroes that generally outclasses C-Bill versions, the causes of their dominance is as follows:

Dragon Slayer: Energy (PPC) hardpoints are close to the ballistic hardpoints, allowing for better convergence exploitation while jumpsniping. Also, the left side of the mech can be used as a meat shield because of not having weapons in it.

Misery: The missiles on the C-Bill variants aren't always worthwhile due to the current state of missiles compared to direct fire. Also, the whole right side of the mech can be used as a meatshield if you pack the PPCs on the left (with the AC/20 or Gauss).

Ember: The C-Bill Firestarters (and Jenner F, while we're at it) have a hard time sustaining more than ~5-6 Medium Lasers. This hero gets MGs to use while it cools down, and the MLas also break through armor for the MGs to eat the internals (synergy combo).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The potential solutions for each case might include but are not limited to:

Dragon Slayer: Some kind of across the board poptarting nerf. There are many out there, so pick your favorite flavor. Heck, maybe even let the C-Bill Victors get their pre-nerf agility back, while leaving the DS as being as responsive as an Atlas.

Misery: Improve the viability of missiles somehow. All Stalkers are tough anyways, so the Misery getting the right side as a shield isn't that big of a deal.

Ember: Reduce MLas heat back down to its original level of 3 (and maybe SLas back down to 1), and perhaps even give us 2.0 external DHS. This would help the laser boat C-Bill Firestarters keep fighting rather than hitting the inevitable "heat wall" where they have to cease fire for a little bit.

Yes, you may be able to nerf these guys back down into irrelevance, but that does not change the P2W status quo of Hero Mechs, just like my assertion that Clan tech will continue to be P2W until it's either nerfed to total irrelevance, or out from behind the pay wall.

Edited by Atheus, 24 June 2014 - 11:10 PM.

[Corralis]

MonkeyCheese, on 24 June 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

Sooo you made ANOTHER thread instead of posting in any of them?

Ahh but this guy has PROVED that this game is P2W so that alone demands a brand new thread

[LordKnightFandragon]

If anything was P2W in the clan packs, it was Radar Dep....

Those were given to the guys who bought the really expensive packs...and its a downright amazing module, apparently its the go to module now. Get it or GTFO is the general feeling im getting when people ask about modules. Its kinda OP imo....leave LoS, insta target loss....

[Corralis]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 11:06 PM, said:

If they're paying in because they think they're going to do a better job with that exclusive content, then what else can you call it? I have bought plenty of mechs out of sheer boredom, but at the end of the day I'm always going to run the strongest mech that suits my mood. I'm never going to just run my HBK-4P with 3 medium lasers for the hell of it. If I'm going to run the HBK-4P I'm going to build it as well as it can be built. If there's a clan mech that I have which does pretty much the same thing but better, which one am I going to pick? Yeah, it may take some experimentation to come to a solid conclusion of which one is better, but once I figure out that one is flat out inferior to the other, I'm not going to go back to piloting the inferior one just to experience the joy of playing at a disadvantage.

If I happen to decide that the best mech for the way I want to play is one that's behind a pay wall, then jumping over that pay wall is nothing short of pay for advantage. I can't honestly say to anyone else that it isn't, and whose opinion am I going to go on? Mine! I'm the guy who decided Mech C was the right choice, so what business do I have telling people that by my own estimation I'm not paying for advantage: I just happen to play better in a mech that other people can't get for C-Bills? It's dishonest.


Yes, you may be able to nerf these guys back down into irrelevance, but that does not change the P2W status quo of Hero Mechs, just like my assertion that Clan tech will continue to be P2W until it's either nerfed to total irrelevance, or out from behind the pay wall.

But your forgetting about the main point of Hero Mech's, the 30% C-bill and XP boost. A CTF-3D can do everything the VTR-DS can do but I can make more money in the VTR-DS if I spend some real money. I'm paying for convenience not for power.

LordKnightFandragon, on 24 June 2014 - 11:13 PM, said:

If anything was P2W in the clan packs, it was Radar Dep....

Those were given to the guys who bought the really expensive packs...and its a downright amazing module, apparently its the go to module now. Get it or GTFO is the general feeling im getting when people ask about modules. Its kinda OP imo....leave LoS, insta target loss....

Yea it is a bit OP but not P2W as you can buy the module with C-bills. Also it kinda counters the fact that not many Clan Mech's have ECM so it should really be a Clan Mech only module.