513 replies to this topic

[Corralis]

Triskelion, on 25 June 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

It's a LRM build, I've seen it thrown around NGNG earlier. It's pointless and badly contextualized mathcrafting.

(and I've seen it used, and it performs pretty much exactly as you'd expect it to)

Must be this - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...901fd31ee0ab51d

I have tried it though and your right, it doesn't work very well. Or at least there are a lot of other mech's that do it better.

[xXBagheeraXx]

I would not DREAM of running that mech with only about 1000 rounds of ammo. You would be dry in a matter of minutes...I only run about 1080 on ONE lrm build and its only feeding 4 lrm5's. on a 2 large laser 4 medium laser stalker. That build is quite fail.

[Corralis]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

Cool. I'll point out again, the purpose of this thread isn't to try to shame the players who prepaid for Clan. The point is to get the fact that this game has P2W elements out of the way so whenever someone wants to talk about some P2W system, they don't have to deal with a gazillion indignant posts insisting that this game has no P2W. If you didn't choose Clan because you thought it would provide some advantage, then you did not choose to pay for an advantage, you paid for mechs that you thought looked cool, or whatever. That does not mean you didn't get an advantage, though.

No your wrong again and the reason is because you have decided not to quote the important part of my original post where I say that I do no better in my Warhawk than I do in many other IS mech's. I have not got an advantage from buying Clan Mech's. I am no better or worse at this game because i bought Clan Mech's. For that reason alone Clan Mech's are NOT P2W.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

Actually, I built those mechs in Smurfy's mechlab. I don't own the clan pack. I regret the fact that I bought the Phoenix pack, but I'm glad I bought the Founder's pack. I don't resent the players who bought the Clan pack, but I do wish that it wasn't so hard for most of them to accept that Clan tech probably represents a significant P2W element across the entire ELO landscape.

Wait wait whoah whoah whoah...So you are making accusations of something being pay to win and you have never EVEN DRIVEN THE THINGS, NOR DO YOU OWN THEM?

You just lost 100% of any credibility you MIGHT have had.

Not only do you NOT understand the meaning of the word "Pay to win" You dont even know how the mechs or weapons you are accusing of being "pay to win" function as you have never even driven them...you only have SMURPHYS to go by ffs.

just...plz..go...you have no clue whatsoever.

[Atheus]

Corralis, on 25 June 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

Must be this - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...901fd31ee0ab51d

I have tried it though and your right, it doesn't work very well. Or at least there are a lot of other mech's that do it better.

Yeah that looks like it for the most part, though more ammo less DHS. I was looking at Clan's options for LRM boats after seeing a bunch of discussions over another wave of LRMpocalypse popping up. Seemed like it could pull off the LRM boat gig better than the stalker and still have some nice speed and lasers to shoot when the rockets wouldn't work, but yeah I have no way to test it. I imagine it would work just fine any time you're in a bracket that can't cope with LRM's.

[Corralis]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

Yeah that looks like it for the most part, though more ammo less DHS. I was looking at Clan's options for LRM boats after seeing a bunch of discussions over another wave of LRMpocalypse popping up. Seemed like it could pull off the LRM boat gig better than the stalker and still have some nice speed and lasers to shoot when the rockets wouldn't work, but yeah I have no way to test it. I imagine it would work just fine any time you're in a bracket that can't cope with LRM's.

If you put less DHS in that thing you would overheat in seconds. The Timberwolf is actually not that great when it comes to LRM boating. This is where the Timberwolf Shines - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b385b55954c3fc5

Doesn't look that good on paper does it?

Edited by Corralis, 25 June 2014 - 09:22 PM.

[Atheus]

xXBagheeraXx, on 25 June 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

Wait wait whoah whoah whoah...So you are making accusations of something being pay to win and you have never EVEN DRIVEN THE THINGS, NOR DO YOU OWN THEM?

You just lost 100% of any credibility you MIGHT have had.

Not only do you NOT understand the meaning of the word "Pay to win" You dont even know how the mechs or weapons you are accusing of being "pay to win" function as you have never even driven them...you only have SMURPHYS to go by ffs.

just...plz..go...you have no clue whatsoever.

What exactly is my definition of "Pay to win", by the way? Be the first guy who is trying to disagree with me to actually get it right and I'll [like] your post.

And really, you make me laugh. My whole assertion is that I feel the Clan expansion pack represents a pay to win game element, and that pay to win game elements are bad for the game. Why would you think I've bought the Clan pack? I don't want to reward PGI for doing things I think are bad for the game.

It would be nice if there were a way for me to test out the Clan tech, though. Unfortunately that won't be happening until November for me. Until then I'll just have to go by your reports. Try not to be too biased.

Corralis, on 25 June 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

If you put less DHS in that thing you would overheat in seconds. The Timberwolf is actually not that great when it comes to LRM boating. This is where the Timberwolf Shines - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b385b55954c3fc5

Doesn't look that good on paper does it?

No, actually that's pretty much the same as the build I imagined I would try first, aside from mine using 4xERML, a ton less ammo and trimming armor from the legs.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Corralis, on 25 June 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

If you put less DHS in that thing you would overheat in seconds. The Timberwolf is actually not that great when it comes to LRM boating. This is where the Timberwolf Shines - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b385b55954c3fc5

Doesn't look that good on paper does it?

Yeah, you really dont want to go over standard lrm 15's or you wind up putting most of your ammo in your ARMS, as you wont have much torso space. one well placed shot and POOF half your ammo is gone AND your supporting weapons are gone. Exactly why im having trouble making a decent artemis 15 or lrm 20 config with that mech. My Catapult does NOT have this problem...Catapult is therefore OP as a missile heavy and MUST BE NERFED!!!!!

[Corralis]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

What exactly is my definition of "Pay to win", by the way? Be the first guy who is trying to disagree with me to actually get it right and I'll [like] your post.

And really, you make me laugh. My whole assertion is that I feel the Clan expansion pack represents a pay to win game element, and that pay to win game elements are bad for the game. Why would you think I've bought the Clan pack? I don't want to reward PGI for doing things I think are bad for the game.

It would be nice if there were a way for me to test out the Clan tech, though. Unfortunately that won't be happening until November for me. Until then I'll just have to go by your reports. Try not to be too biased.


No, actually that's pretty much the same as the build I imagined I would try first, aside from mine using 4xERML, a ton less ammo and trimming armor from the legs.

I agree with Bagheera though, Until you have tried Clan mech's for yourself, you have no basis to call them Pay to Win. As you have recently shown, all you are able to go on is the numbers that Smufy's has shown you, and those numbers do not represent how Clan Mech's work on the battlefield.

[N0MAD]

Its been said before.
Why not run an IS vs Clan tourny, PGI is now experienced in running Tournies and well wouldnt it fit in with this whole Clan invasion thing?.
3 possible scenarios as outcome.
Clans stomp IS and P2W proven..
IS Stomps Clans, PGI loses sales.
Games are fairly matched......good for all.
Do you think they will set one up?

[Ryvucz]

If it hasn't been said yet... this thread is new and exciting.

[Triskelion]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

Yeah that looks like it for the most part, though more ammo less DHS. I was looking at Clan's options for LRM boats after seeing a bunch of discussions over another wave of LRMpocalypse popping up. Seemed like it could pull off the LRM boat gig better than the stalker and still have some nice speed and lasers to shoot when the rockets wouldn't work, but yeah I have no way to test it. I imagine it would work just fine any time you're in a bracket that can't cope with LRM's.

That's perfectly fine to bring up, and I do agree, clan mechs function very differently from IS mechs, and yes, because they play differently, that gives players that like that sort of gameplay an advantage. That's fine, and if that's your primary argument for pay to win, then that could fit the bill.

The problem is, we've already seen that at higher levels of play, it simply doesn't function that way. At high levels of play, you can deal with LRMs, and you can cope with that build, for example. Being better at boating doesn't win the game, it makes it easier for a single mechanic to be exploited, and not particularly better in all cases (read: most, when organized).

Now, I also understand that you want to get the point across that because the clan mechs are currently only purchasable with real money that the lack of access to that style of play at lower levels (because we might as well be specific) makes them pay to win. The second these are released for Cbills (as we know they will be), all of this is moot, which we know is going to happen.

Do I think it's a bit irritating that they weren't immediately, or at least a few were added in for Cbills? Yes. It's fuel for the fire, and it causes a lot of disgruntled players both old and new.

But being very clear, we have already seen frequently that organized players with current meta builds are more than capable of flattening attempted clan meta builds, and will do so more frequently because of (get ready) FLD and poptarting, then calling clans pay to win is sort of cheap (...zing). They don't do what the best things in the game currently do as well, so they really aren't paying for power any more so than the current Hero mechs or, far better of an example, the previous Phoenix pack release. People only care now because clans can be outfitted so differently.

Furthermore, when a lot of games release new content they add in an in-game paywall anyway (LoL, Blacklight, other things I can't remember at the moment, but insert timely and witty title here. Perhaps Warframe.), but nobody cares because that paywall can be broken by long-time players. That's pretty valid as pay to win too, but again, nobody really gives a damn because everyone that appreciates the addition of new content can get their hands on it.

I'm not saying your point is entirely invalid, I'm just sick of seeing this after we've already gotten past it once, and everyone just cares because the clans seem so vastly different, and to a lot of people, easier to play.

I realize that was broken and rambling, I'll go to sleep soon.

Edited by Triskelion, 25 June 2014 - 09:38 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

What exactly is my definition of "Pay to win", by the way? Be the first guy who is trying to disagree with me to actually get it right and I'll [like] your post.

And really, you make me laugh. My whole assertion is that I feel the Clan expansion pack represents a pay to win game element, and that pay to win game elements are bad for the game. Why would you think I've bought the Clan pack? I don't want to reward PGI for doing things I think are bad for the game.

It would be nice if there were a way for me to test out the Clan tech, though. Unfortunately that won't be happening until November for me. Until then I'll just have to go by your reports. Try not to be too biased.

Pay to win would mean paying real money for something in game that is ONLY available for real money (micro transactions) that offer you some unfair advantage in game that non paying players cannot attain.

Clan mechs are pay for EARLY ACCESS. they will be available in all way shapes and form later in the game. and for the most part are not THAT much better than is counterparts. Yeah that Dire wolf packs some nasty firepower. it is one of, if not THE most well armed mechs in the lore. But it can get its ass handed to it by a jenner pilot with 2 braincells.

Hero mechs? As I explained earlier. the Dragon slayer is NOT the best poptart victor. the best poptart is the 9B, as all your weapons are mounted in the arms, and therefore easier to aim as all the weapons will converge on a single point. The Dragon slayer has to aim its torso ppcs AND its arm cannons to hit a single section. While it is accurate it is not AS accurate as the 9B. its only advantage is that you can "give" your empty energy arm for people to shoot at to avoid losing your weapons.

The Misery? Simply a ballistic alternative to the other stalkers..Yes it can pack some nice brawler configs but it can also lose that ac20 in a hell of a hurry and it cannot missile boat like the other stalkers can. it is simply an alternative version tarted up to be a hero mech.

The Boars head? Please. Half your effective weapons mounted in your arms, most boars head builds are brawler configs...guess what part of your mech you use to soak up damage first? THATS RIGHT KIDS! your arms....kinda sucks to lose those doesnt it? The only hero mech I would consider remotely superior than the Cbill variants is the Muromets. So if you are saying the muromets is pay to win then hey no arguments from me, that thing is/was FUN. xl 300 with triple ua5 spam? yes please! But it still could get dropped like a ton of bricks, very quickly.

Anything a Heavy metal can do, a 733 can do better, or with an AC20...

So tell me where is my pay to win? I like winning, so i wanna throw money at it!

[Atheus]

Corralis, on 25 June 2014 - 09:28 PM, said:

I agree with Bagheera though, Until you have tried Clan mech's for yourself, you have no basis to call them Pay to Win. As you have recently shown, all you are able to go on is the numbers that Smufy's has shown you, and those numbers do not represent how Clan Mech's work on the battlefield.

I haven't claimed firsthand experience this whole time, yet suddenly now it's a problem? All I've done is laid a logical framework for determining whether Clan is P2W. You can fill in the blank with your own experience. Personally, I filled in the blank with my analysis of the raw data on Clan weapons and mechs - seeing how they directly improve on some of my favorite builds. That one assumption that I made - because I don't have the data to definitively prove the answer - that certain players can improve their ability to win/kill by upgrading to Clan mechs. That's an assumption that completes the puzzle. I can't decide for anyone what is an appropriate amount of data to verify that assumption, but you can decide for yourself. If you want to plug in the data in this thread then you've got a pretty good picture that it's quite believable that Clan tech is working out really well for a lot of players. If that data is not sufficient for you, then figure it out yourself. My concern was is that plenty of players were going to realize Clan tech was better for them or for other people, then double-think their way out of realizing that that means that Clan tech is a cash-only advantage.

Edited by Atheus, 25 June 2014 - 09:41 PM.

[Turboferret]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

What exactly is my definition of "Pay to win", by the way?

Your definition is wrong, because that's not how literally everyone else defines it.

Please, for your own sake. Just uninstall.

[CMetz]

I'd like to indicate for the record that the mechs chosen for the tournament were chosen due to the tonnage limits. HGN-733C is still preferred over the DS in an open tonnage situation.

In addition, due to the implementation of clan weaponry in this game, Inner Sphere mechs are actually able to kill opponents faster than clan mechs, due to the ability to mount more FLD weapons.

But in summation, your point is that the DS (an Inner Sphere mech) is the best mech in the game, so the game is pay to win. Also, the clan mechs are the best mechs in the game, so the game is pay to win. Which is it? What is the superior mech?

You are confusing opinion with fact. I do not see your name listed amongst the ranks of HoL or SJR? Do you know how and why their drop decks were chosen? Everything you say is conjecture.

We all must respect that you have your own opinion, and you are completely entitled to it. Do not try and pass it off as fact, however, as this is quite disrespectful to those wise enough to understand what you are doing.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

We need to make some sigs featuring some of Atheus's Best/Worst/Facepalm quotes...lol

[Triskelion]

Keira_NZ, on 25 June 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:

We need to make some sigs featuring some of Atheus's Best/Worst/Facepalm quotes...lol

Personal attacks aren't really needed. This is surprisingly civilized, which is the only reason I've bothered posting. It's pretty cool actually.

[Turboferret]

I would like us all to join hands to rescue Atheus from the P2W horror that is MWO, for his own good.

Please, join me in our chorus.

Atheus, please uninstall.

[LiGhtningFF13]

It's everyone's choice! If someone don't want to pay he has to wait. Just that simple. But in my view everyone deserves the same rights here in this game. It is not fair to privilege others just for their loose monetary policy! Like me, I'm afraid but I didn't want to wait and get shot into pieces.