513 replies to this topic

[bar10jim]

Morden Kerensky, on 24 June 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

Should re-name this thread to "I believe these facts support my opinion" IMO.

- or how about:

"I...don't have facts to back this up...." - Herman Cain

[Navid A1]

If i understood correctly, the OP believes that clan mechs give better chance of winning. Even if he is right about this matter, the posts, complains and suggestions should be about how to balance it out... not starting a non-constructive discussion.

In a 5 month time, all clan mechs will be free for all, eliminating the base of OP's discussion. What about then?... if clan mechs are vastly superior by that time... the game becomes a race to the good stuff. That's the point that should be avoided in the future. Not for them being available for money or not. Real money is (and should be) a means to save time.

[Atheus]

qki, on 26 June 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

That is the crux of the matter, and also what numerous players are arguing.

The strongest tactic is not cash exclusive. If you are refering to the dragon slayer, than a highlander or a regular victor is a perfectly acceptable substitute, in some cases superior (hgn).

You present this as fact, but again, a few flaws. Your data pertain to pre-clan tournament scene. The jury is out on what the story will be post-clan, but Timberwolves vs. Dragonslayers thread indicates that it is definitely not safe to assume that the DS will continue to be the top dog.

For starters, if any other VTR were a suitable substitute, then there would be some variation in the tournament scene. There really isn't.

qki, on 26 June 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

You just seem unable to get over the fact, that "improved performance" does not equal "advantage over other players".

That's because this is not a "fact".

qki, on 26 June 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

In fact - it can be beneficial to the game, allowing players to jump ahead of the curve. I'm not talking about extremes, when the premium equipment allows you to easily compete with the strongest players (but that already violates the requirements).

Again, you're acting like it only matters if it lets you get to the top. The top - a place that was recently observed to be populated almost entirely by cash exclusive mechs - is a tiny place compared to the middle, but you're unable to care whether something lets people who are paying move up past people who aren't.

qki, on 26 June 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

Sure - players don't get better instantly, but that is irrelevant. The definition simply assumes that for any given player, the non-premium options available to that player, must rival or excede any premium options (which does not mean "all free stuff muct be better/equal to all premium stuff").

Wrong again. It only really matters what you can make use of. If you're an Australian and you can't reliably hit the target with a ballistic, you're better off with a laser, or a clan ballistic that fires multiple shells, or LRMs. There are plenty of Australian players in the same boat.

[Atheus]

1453 R, on 26 June 2014 - 02:10 PM, said:

I don’t even want him to uninstall.

I want one thing, and one thing alone. It is a thing he has categorically refused to give for the last twenty-one pages of bullscheissen. I’ve asked him for it several times, and tried to prod/goad it out of him even more. I am now going to put it into the plaints, most black-and-white, most inarguably clear words I can find.

Atheus.

What is your proposal for dealing with the problem of P2W-ness outlined in your initial post, such as to solve the issue of the Clans being stuck behind the Berlin Pay Wall? How do you propose to remove the problem, in a manner satisfactory to both Invasion package holders and the general populace?

IF YOU HAVE NO SOLUTION YOU WISH TO TRY AND ARGUE TOWARDS, THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS NOTHING BUT MEANINGLESS, COUNTERPRODUCTIVE AND MALICIOUS-MINDED ANGERMONGERING AND IT NEEDS TO GO TO K-TOWN ALREADY.

I have described what the purpose of this thread is. I am not prescribing a solution to MWO's P2W in this thread. It doesn't matter if I think I have one or not. What would be the point of coming up with a treatment plan if the patient doesn't even know he's sick, and will tell the doctor he's a quack if he suggests otherwise? If you search back through my posts in other threads, you will find my thoughts on what sort of damage control is or isn't possible at this point, and it's fairly grim, but I don't particularly want to discuss that in this thread.

The whole purpose of this thread is to encourage players to be honest about what pay to win is, and how it applies to this game's monetization scheme. The players coming in here to argue have had various levels of crazy, with a very high level of certainty. Every player that pops in to tell us that it's not pay to win because you don't automatically win when you have a Clan mech represents one more frothing zealot that is going to fight you tooth and nail if you try to propose some sort of group action to cope with P2W corruption, or even discuss the problem.

Perhaps I was a bit too ambitious trying to both define pay to win, AND demonstrate how it applies to this game, but with a constant effort I'm pretty sure I've held my ground despite the steady stream of people declaring victory.

[N0MAD]

Kilo 40, on 26 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

It makes no common sense. You basically just described "pay2bedifferent", not "pay2win".

No pay to be different is paying for Colors or Camo or cockpit items, paying for Hardware that effects gameplay in any way that isnt available for in game cash is P2W.

[Turboferret]

*Yawn.*

I'm still waiting on that uninstall screenshot man.

You can't expect us to take you seriously when you can't even back up your words.

[Joseph Mallan]

Atheus, on 26 June 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

I have described what the purpose of this thread is. I am not prescribing a solution to MWO's P2W in this thread. It doesn't matter if I think I have one or not. What would be the point of coming up with a treatment plan if the patient doesn't even know he's sick, and will tell the doctor he's a quack if he suggests otherwise? If you search back through my posts in other threads, you will find my thoughts on what sort of damage control is or isn't possible at this point, and it's fairly grim, but I don't particularly want to discuss that in this thread.

The whole purpose of this thread is to encourage players to be honest about what pay to win is, and how it applies to this game's monetization scheme. The players coming in here to argue have had various levels of crazy, with a very high level of certainty. Every player that pops in to tell us that it's not pay to win because you don't automatically win when you have a Clan mech represents one more frothing zealot that is going to fight you tooth and nail if you try to propose some sort of group action to cope with P2W corruption, or even discuss the problem.

Perhaps I was a bit too ambitious trying to both define pay to win, AND demonstrate how it applies to this game, but with a constant effort I'm pretty sure I've held my ground despite the steady stream of people declaring victory.

There is no set game so it is not yet pay2win.

[N0MAD]

Azrael1911, on 26 June 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

I'd just like to remind everyone that Atheus agreed to uninstall.

He still hasn't seem to make good on it.

Uninstall, Atheus. You promised.

Azrael1911, on 26 June 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

You can't expect us to take you seriously when you can't even back up your words.

That was his position at the time.
Good for the goose is good for the gander.

Edited by N0MAD, 26 June 2014 - 03:14 PM.

[Hellcat420]

N0MAD, on 26 June 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

No pay to be different is paying for Colors or Camo or cockpit items, paying for Hardware that effects gameplay in any way that isnt available for in game cash is P2W.

that is not p2w. p2w is paying for a significant advantage over free players, which clan mechs do not offer a significant advantage.

[Zolaz]

Hmmmm, the only thing I got from this thread is that it should have been "Proof" in the title.

[1453 R]

Atheus, on 26 June 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

I have described what the purpose of this thread is. I am not prescribing a solution to MWO's P2W in this thread.

Then there’s no f***ing point to this entire mess and all you’re doing is cheesing people off for no bloody reason. Congrats: Mission Accomplished.

Atheus, on 26 June 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

What would be the point of coming up with a treatment plan if the patient doesn't even know he's sick, and will tell the doctor he's a quack if he suggests otherwise?

You might’ve gotten a lot more traction with this whole thing if you were shooting towards a concrete plan of action, rather than just accusing Invasion package holders of being bad people who should feel bad. As it stands, your original post had no function whatsoever beyond a pretty bald-faced attempt to inflict guilt upon anyone with an Invasion badge. Or who had ever bought a Hero ‘Mech. Or, for that matter, anyone who had ever spent money on MWO or purchased MC at any point, since as others have stated, by your definition even cockpit vanity items can be argued to be P2W.

Care to tell me that Sarah’s Jenner was P2W, too? After all, people are at least slightly less likely to shoot at a ‘Mech bought for charity; that’s a concrete advantage that cannot be duplicated by freely available in-game means.

(P.S. the above was sarcasm. If you actually, truly intend to tell me that Sarah’s Jenner is P2W and I shouldn’a done that, either, I’ll punch you square in the dong. You’ve been warned.)

Atheus, on 26 June 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

The whole purpose of this thread is to encourage players to be honest about what pay to win is, and how it applies to this game's monetization scheme. The players coming in here to argue have had various levels of crazy, with a very high level of certainty. Every player that pops in to tell us that it's not pay to win because you don't automatically win when you have a Clan mech represents one more frothing zealot that is going to fight you tooth and nail if you try to propose some sort of group action to cope with P2W corruption, or even discuss the problem.

If you wanted help lobbying Piranha against timed-exclusive content in future releases, you should’ve started a thread asking for help lobbying Piranha against timed-exclusive content in future releases. I would’ve actually helped you with that, no joke. I don’t much care for this colossal s***storm we’ve got going on right now. That thread would’ve been just as troll-congested as this one, nature of the Internet – but then, at least, you might’ve gotten the more reasonable and level-headed people on the board on your side, instead of spending twenty pages defending themselves against accusations of being bad people who should feel bad.

Atheus, on 26 June 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

Perhaps I was a bit too ambitious trying to both define pay to win, AND demonstrate how it applies to this game, but with a constant effort I'm pretty sure I've held my ground despite the steady stream of people declaring victory.

Ambition had, and has, nothing to do with it. You’re publically damning everyone who bought the Invasion package, no matter why they bought it, and shockingly enough the Invasion package holders didn’t much care for that. I bought my Invasion ‘Mechs for convenience, because I wanted the Prime (I) variants, I wanted the bonus fluff too, and because I felt like Piranha might finally be turning this ship around again. Also because I was in the position of being able to throw money at my gaming habit the way George W. threw missiles at Arabs, except with less explosions. But, apparently, with the same amount of public hue and cry. The one thing I didn’t buy them for, the one thing I never wanted out of them, was a discrete gameplay advantage – but simply because I have them, then according to you I’m an evil baby-eating P2W-ing basshole and I should feel terrible about myself.

News for you: nobody likes to hear that. It often has the effect of bringing out the worst in them. Thus twenty-one pages of bullscheissen.

[Turboferret]

1453 R, on 26 June 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

snip

Actually, funny thing is, Sarah's Jenner is actually P2L. The mechs are identical except Sarah's Jenner has less tubes in its center missile slots. (4,4 instead of 5,10).

Also Atheus, still waiting on that uninstall.

[xMEPHISTOx]

p2w>?
DS>? (only mech that I think truly does have distinct advantages over all others, thus seen so much in comp play).
TW>?

http://www.urbandict...term=pay-to-win

http://en.wikipedia....o_win#Criticism

Quote

By Benzene on 2014/02/01 at 6:23 PM

I see pay to win as being able to purchase items that cannot be obtained anywhere else, or that take an unreasonably long amount of time to get otherwise.

"From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus the Grand Evolution began."

http://gaming.stacke...t-does-p2w-mean

http://forums.firefa...in.70220/page-3

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 26 June 2014 - 03:35 PM.

[N0MAD]

Yes this probably has gone far enough.
All this has really proven is that people will always have different opinions and interpret things in different ways, our society is entitled to this. We all know what its like in societies or cummunities where opinion is prohibited or punished.
Ciao

[Mercules]

Atheus, on 26 June 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

But to be honest, when you're refuting an argument you don't really get to challenge the definition of a term! You evaluate whether the argument fits the parameters of the definition given — and it was given at the very start. See Disputing Definitions. If you do come in and actually manage to prove that I'm using the wrong term (which is not the case), that still would not upset the logical integrity of the argument, only the label of the actual conditions being evaluated.

If you would go back and read what I posted before I agreed that your argument does fit a valid format. It is logically sound. I then pointed out that your conclusion, however, is only true if the the statements making up your valid argument are true. I then pointed out why they are not true. Your argument is a logical argument, it falls apart because the statements supporting it are false therefore the premise can not be true.

[Mercules]

N0MAD, on 26 June 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

No pay to be different is paying for Colors or Camo or cockpit items, paying for Hardware that effects gameplay in any way that isnt available for in game cash is P2W.

No it isn't. In other games I can purchase a "back to base" teleport so that I can easily return to town. It costs real money. It does give me an advantage in that I can return and sell things faster and don't have to work my way back through mobs and possibly die and lose credits respawning and such.

In Rift I can buy new Souls for all four Classes. I can get a Healing soul for warriors and a Tanking soul for Mages. This alters gameplay in that different classes can now queue for different roles or toss in a secondary soul that lets them "junk heal/tank/dps/buff" thus giving them options not available to non-paying folks. This is still not pay to win because you can still access the equivalent in a different class with different soul combinations which are free.


Clans play differently but are not significantly more powerful than IS. End of concern over P2W.

[Nik Reaper]

While I don't personally like the tone and the sarcasam of the OP why can's everyone here just agree on this:

There should have never been Hero mechs that have different stast from the regular ones, not better, not worse , just never different. The whole hero mech thing, being heros of lore, then just maid up, with different hardpoints and engine restrictions is a bomb waiting to go... This was a mistake but they wanted the money and they went with it, and in truth it's not the end of the road, but let's agree that in any game that wants to be balanced you dont sell opportunaty for money, or I might want to buy with money zealots in SC2 that have +2 to attack but mby they cost 2 mineral more... seems fair right... RIGHT?
( I don't play much but I'm sure someone would somehow build a strategy around it and the rest would have to adapt to it making them more uncomfortable or just unviable , and yes something that alters mechanics to make your play style uncomfortable by it's self is an advantage ) . They should have just stayed with regular varients with castum geometry, paint scheme and cbill,xp bonuses.

Fortunatly the case here is not nearly as bad but admit it is there!

Admit that this is not fair, but so is paying taxes that go to thing you don't use, visit or care about but are forced to anyway...

Now if you can admit that the only other thing is to just decide where do we draw the line.
What is the line for, it's there to rase the alarm and do what we did before with consumables, the community warfare ( community vs devs ) , and make sure that an equal in game cbill paying option is present and not too highly priced.

Admit that even if you didn't want the power you did buy in to ptw but most don't care and don't judge you much for it, as we understand the company strategy , much like taxes , early access are needed to keep things running.

Simply admit tht if every package was 500$ or say 1000$ many more would complain , so agree that ptw is an objective thing ( paying for options ) but subjective when we decide it's unfair to a vast majority is the time to shout it out!

And most here seem to agree that time is not now, but we would like to feel about when it is...

GL and HF.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 26 June 2014 - 04:28 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nik Has a point. Yen Lo Wang is a Hero Mech Cause it's Kai's. It's Unique. So Hero Mechs Should be Unique, won in Tournament, and no play can ever have more than ONE. That is a Hero Mech.

[1453 R]

That hardly sounds like you at all, Joe. Like, no, really - you're usually much better about punctuation and grammar and things like that, and also not quite that RAWRGHBADNESS.

Someone snatch your keyboard, mang?

[Joseph Mallan]

1453 R, on 26 June 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

That hardly sounds like you at all, Joe. Like, no, really - you're usually much better about punctuation and grammar and things like that, and also not quite that RAWRGHBADNESS.

Someone snatch your keyboard, mang?

I'm eating lunch

I've not been a fan of Heroes being bought by just anyone... I'm Sentimental.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 26 June 2014 - 04:21 PM.