513 replies to this topic

[Atheus]

1453 R, on 26 June 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

Here’s some questions for you then, Atheus. Since apparently this thread totez legit isn’t about getting a better grip on that club you’re breaking over Invasion package holders’ heads, and is purely and solely about coming up with a better way to make sure MWO isn't Pee Two Doubleyou. Pretend you’re Russ for a little bit here, and let’s talk.

What C-bill price would you put to the Dragon Slayer? How much is it worth, in a C-bill sense, and how would you compensate current owners of the Dragon Slayer for their willingness/moxie to pony up for the durned thing prior to it being available for whatever amount of C-bills you figure it’s worth?

How would you work out taking down the Berlin Pay Wall? And again, how would you go about compensating current Invasion Package holders for the removal of the early-access deal that was part of why many players bought the Invasion package in the first place? How would you compensate Invasion package holders for their previously-exclusive Prime(I) variants being released to the public?

How would you figure out the conversion rates on MC for C-bill prices for cockpit items, camouflages, or colors? I’ll waive the compensation for existing owners on this one, since it’s generally a much more minor concern.

I won’t ask you how you’d fix the MC-purchaseable consumables, as I actually have my own preferred method for dealing with consumables (one of these days I’ll do a proper write up for the Call-In Slot System, and then Piranha can ignore that, too).

Here’s the real big one, though – how would you, Faux-Russ, keep Piranha Games solvent after making the decision that no one in MWO ever has to buy MC ever again and thus no more additional revenue ever makes its way into the studio’s accounts? How would you keep the servers running when no one ever has to pay cash-money for anything ever again?

It is encouraging that you seem to recognize all the problems. As I said last time, I have answered all those questions in another thread (which was flooded with people who would not accept this game was even remotely P2W). I don't want to discuss it in this one. The only purpose of this thread is getting extremely resistant players to settle for calling a duck a duck regardless of their personal stake in its duckiness. Now that you are able to recognize the problems and call them by their real names, you really don't need to fight me any more, nor do I need to fight you. Perhaps I'll see you in some other thread and we can discuss what exactly this game can do about its fairly steep escalation of P2W elements.

[Turboferret]

101011, on 26 June 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

But the giant red triangle nullifies that effect.

But according to Atheus (who still needs to uninstall), if you use a camo pattern with ECM or something, you're explicitly paying to win.

[Atheus]

Azrael1911, on 26 June 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

Actually, you missed the big "P2W". Having a better computer is paying to win, especially with a game on cryengine.

Game designers have no control over what kind of computer you run. They do have control over what sort of content they insert into their game, and how that content gets distributed.

[1453 R]

Atheus, on 26 June 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

It is encouraging that you seem to recognize all the problems. As I said last time, I have answered all those questions in another thread (which was flooded with people who would not accept this game was even remotely P2W). I don't want to discuss it in this one. The only purpose of this thread is getting extremely resistant players to settle for calling a duck a duck regardless of their personal stake in its duckiness. Now that you are able to recognize the problems and call them by their real names, you really don't need to fight me any more, nor do I need to fight you. Perhaps I'll see you in some other thread and we can discuss what exactly this game can do about its fairly steep escalation of P2W elements.

Oh, don’t get me wrong here, boyo! I haven’t changed my stance at all! The questions I posed to you were aimed more to try and make you realize that SOMEBODY HAS TO PAY FOR THIS DAMN GAME, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. And if I’m paying for it, I’d best be getting something for my money, quiaff? Only casinos get to take someone’s money without giving them a single blasted thing in return, and the fact that I have never and will never step foot in one should be telling.

Seriously – point me at this mysterious ‘Other Thread’ wherein you actually discussed solutions instead of just pointing accusatory fingers at Invasion holders and calling us all filthy names, because I want to see it. I want to see the answers to my questions there, Atheus – how do you, as Russ Bullock II, keep MWO afloat after determining that every single thing in the entire game, from ‘Mech chassis on down to lava lamps for your cockpit, cost absolutely zero dollars period forever?

[Sundervine]

Atheus, on 26 June 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

Now you've gone from accepting that the game has P2W elements (which I support) to asking everyone to agree that it is necessary for PGI to survive. That second bit is a claim without evidence. PGI has clearly made many decisions about how to get their players to pay them for their time, but I think you're asking for a little too much to say I should accept their decisions have been good.

Thank you for realizing this is what might be needed. Now can we stop with this thread, and start a whole new one. The new one asking the payer base with the zeal you have put into this one, how PGI can make money without doing things like this.
Since you do not like these specific practices. They might actually listen if they are good enough to make MORE money than they are with these things. That is the best way you can stop what you feel is bad practices.

If it WILL make them MORE money, I promise they will do it.

Nik Reaper, on 26 June 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

I don't know about him , but how about no more "option" mechs for sale , instead a MC price to turn a mech of you'r choosing in to a boosted mech ( 30%Cbill +30% XP) , price depending on the chasy class.
How about selling modules for MC , I might want to pay 3$ to not have to grind ( don't like the conversion rate for the Cbill bundles )
How about those mech parts that they talked about , the spiky atlas pauldron or the war horns helmet head peace, those don't change gameplay much ( exept if some crazy hit box anomaly we could expect from PGI ). The best F2P game is one that does not sell power or "options" ( wich translates to power in specific hands ) but cosmetics and conveniance.

I hope this is just a phase they are at and will after completing the collection ( a hero for every chassy ) will stop this plan and move to a better one.

These are a good start! I lov some of these ideas!

Sandpit, on 26 June 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

ok I'm honestly curious as to how an aesthetic change in your mech helps you win or gives you any kind of advantage...

Easiest example white paint, snow map, ecm mech.

Edited by Sundervine, 26 June 2014 - 05:29 PM.

[Atheus]

1453 R, on 26 June 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

Oh, don’t get me wrong here, boyo! I haven’t changed my stance at all! The questions I posed to you were aimed more to try and make you realize that SOMEBODY HAS TO PAY FOR THIS DAMN GAME, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. And if I’m paying for it, I’d best be getting something for my money, quiaff? Only casinos get to take someone’s money without giving them a single blasted thing in return, and the fact that I have never and will never step foot in one should be telling.

Seriously – point me at this mysterious ‘Other Thread’ wherein you actually discussed solutions instead of just pointing accusatory fingers at Invasion holders and calling us all filthy names, because I want to see it. I want to see the answers to my questions there, Atheus – how do you, as Russ Bullock II, keep MWO afloat after determining that every single thing in the entire game, from ‘Mech chassis on down to lava lamps for your cockpit, cost absolutely zero dollars period forever?

Yeah, just forgive me for wanting to stay on topic in my thread here. I don't feel like digging back through my post history. It would take just as much work for me to do it as it would take you, so if you're that interested in my opinions on that subject feel free to do that for yourself.

[Nik Reaper]

Atheus, on 26 June 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

Game designers have no control over what kind of computer you run. They do have control over what sort of content they insert into their game, and how that content gets distributed.

And heres another view on this, if you can find out what the "actual" requirements for running the game are , not the reccomended ones , before you get in to the game you know , or are told "you need this to compete" , then you know this game has a barrier of entery and while the mechanics are FTP you know there is a barrier and you understand that if you want it you will have to pay.
This game prides it's self as FTP wich means there should be no barriers you HAVE to pay to cross ( like getting a DS to play high level ) so it a question or transparency and presentation , but yes all things in life are not equal so it stings when they say equality is here only hone you'r skill but instead comes with a restriction....
But as it is not that big here we live with it .

[1453 R]

Atheus, on 26 June 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

Yeah, just forgive me for wanting to stay on topic in my thread here. I don't feel like digging back through my post history. It would take just as much work for me to do it as it would take you, so if you're that interested in my opinions on that subject feel free to do that for yourself.

I'm not the one trying to argue that Piranha doesn't deserve to be paid for the work they put into MWO, am I?

[JigglyMoobs]

xMEPHISTOx, on 26 June 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Yes...I am as well. Extra armor adamantium paint.

I've actually had a couple of times when the color of my mech gave me free shots by helping me blend into the background.

For example, here's me shooting Phil. I was standing right next to him in Tourmaline and he had no idea what was hitting him. Can you tell where I was standing?





Time is 4m10s into the video.

Fortunately, the basic paint on the IS mechs seem to be the best camouflage on a lot of maps.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 26 June 2014 - 05:43 PM.

[Atheus]

Sundervine, on 26 June 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

Thank you for realizing this is what might be needed. Now can we stop with this thread, and start a whole new one. The new one asking the payer base with the zeal you have put into this one, how PGI can make money without doing things like this.

Please feel free to start without me. For the time being, I'll be in here trying to help the various people who are filtering in to see the color red. Hopefully this thread will serve as a dragnet picking up all the players who want to argue about whether or not the game has pay to win content, helping your thread run a little cleaner.

1453 R, on 26 June 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

I'm not the one trying to argue that Piranha doesn't deserve to be paid for the work they put into MWO, am I?

Please resist the urge to put words in my mouth on your way out the door. I was just starting to think we could get along.

Edited by Atheus, 26 June 2014 - 05:36 PM.

[Sandpit]

1453 R, on 26 June 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

Camouflage - paint your 'Mech in a given color/scheme, and on certain maps it'll be harder to make out than the acid-green tiger-striped abominations next to you. A very minor advantage, but still P-ing 2 W. According to Atheus, at least. Guess we better normalize all 'Mechs to Fresh Newbie Green, or release every single color in the shop fore free to all players.

you mean like all the basic colors are already available for free?

[1453 R]

Sandpit, on 26 June 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

you mean like all the basic colors are already available for free?

I don't mean 'Buy for C-bills' free. I mean 'Here, you all get all these colors automatically unlocked. Enjoy!' free.

Because asking players to put their time into the game to earn their rewards is P2W, because the people who have more time than others do can pay more of that time to gain an advantage the other players can't duplicate.

Edited by 1453 R, 26 June 2014 - 05:40 PM.

[Sandpit]

1453 R, on 26 June 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

I don't mean 'Buy for C-bills' free. I mean 'Here, you all get all these colors automatically unlocked. Enjoy!' free.

wait, p2w means you can't earn it for free
so now we've gone from paying for an advantage to, anyone who buys something I don't with free in-game currency is p2w?

1453 R, on 26 June 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

I don't mean 'Buy for C-bills' free. I mean 'Here, you all get all these colors automatically unlocked. Enjoy!' free.

Because asking players to put their time into the game to earn their rewards is P2W, because the people who have more time than others do can pay more of that time to gain an advantage the other players can't duplicate.

so I guess by the OP's "logic" anyone with extra time on their hands is paying to win because they'll advance faster than someone who doesn't have as much time to invest in the game. Same principle right?

[Atheus]

1453 R, on 26 June 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

I don't mean 'Buy for C-bills' free. I mean 'Here, you all get all these colors automatically unlocked. Enjoy!' free.

Because asking players to put their time into the game to earn their rewards is P2W, because the people who have more time than others do can pay more of that time to gain an advantage the other players can't duplicate.

All right, Dorothy. I realize you're best friends with the straw man, but you should really think about returning to Kansas someday.

Sandpit, on 26 June 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

wait, p2w means you can't earn it for free
so now we've gone from paying for an advantage to, anyone who buys something I don't with free in-game currency is p2w?

so I guess by the OP's "logic" anyone with extra time on their hands is paying to win because they'll advance faster than someone who doesn't have as much time to invest in the game. Same principle right?

You realize you're not even discussing my ideas now, right? I hope you never run across a Jedi. I'd hate to see what else you could be convinced of

Edited by Atheus, 26 June 2014 - 05:49 PM.

[1453 R]

Sandpit, on 26 June 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

wait, p2w means you can't earn it for free
so now we've gone from paying for an advantage to, anyone who buys something I don't with free in-game currency is p2w?

Yep!

Because Atheus' OP definition of P2W discards any/all notion of wide applicability or statistical relevancy - if someone can construct a plausible reason why one guy, in one match, one single time, derived an advantage from a thing he purchased, then the thing is P2W.

Example: the lava lamp I recently bought for my SCR-Prime(I)'s cockpit? Totally P2W. See, dropping into a match with that lava lamp bubbling merrily away in my cockpit could, conceivably, put me in a better mood than when I started that match. People in better moods will, generally, perform better in a drop, and if it's a particularly close-fought game, that extra little nudge of performance from the smile my lava lamp put on my face could be enough to swing the difference between victory and defeat. Via the Million Monkeys Mozart principle, if a thing has extremely low chance of happening, but is offered effectively infinite chances to happen, then it is actually a certainty that the thing in question will happen.

Ergo, and strictly according to Atheus' original principles for determining P2W, one guy, in one match, at one point somewhere, won a game he should have lost because he bought a cockpit lava lamp for his 'Mech.

1970s OP. Prana plz nerf.

[Nik Reaper]

1453 R, on 26 June 2014 - 05:46 PM, said:

.Example: the lava lamp I recently bought for my SCR-Prime(I)'s cockpit? Totally P2W. See, dropping into a match with that lava lamp bubbling merrily away in my cockpit could, conceivably, put me in a better mood than when I started that match. People in better moods will, generally, perform better in a drop, and if it's a particularly close-fought game, that extra little nudge of performance from the smile my lava lamp put on my face could be enough to swing the difference between victory and defeat.

Wow, I dare say I am impressed, I would have never stoped to consider this, I guess we put marginal things under the rug when dealing with this ishue, and that's fine I think X) .
Gives me an idea for the most OP PTW cockpit item EVER!!!!
Check it: a row of christmas lights, yeah we have that but with a twist, the lights only shine in the direction an enemy is in let's say 250 m !!!

[headbasher]

1453 R, on 26 June 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

Camouflage - paint your 'Mech in a given color/scheme, and on certain maps it'll be harder to make out than the acid-green tiger-striped abominations next to you. A very minor advantage, but still P-ing 2 W. According to Atheus, at least. Guess we better normalize all 'Mechs to Fresh Newbie Green, or release every single color in the shop fore free to all players.

You really really need to work on your arguments of course it would be p2w , you do realize WoT has done exactly this WITHOUT making it p2w and it works great .

What they did was buy camo for money? lasts forever.

Buy it with in game credits? lasts a week/2weeks/month

problem solved,

[Powder Puff Pew Pew]

This forum needs a DISLIKE option cuz I know this post would be riddled with holes of dislikes. I cant believe people are still calling this pay to win lol. Seriously!!! wow, they were all like PAY TO WIN after the Pheonix pack came out lol? Foreal and the same idiots are here at it again Pay to win guys!!!

[Piney II]

This forum has tons of whining cry babies who refuse to adapt and play.

Get over it and just play the damn game!

Unless you just don't have the chops to do it.....................

[Redbackz]

Pay to Win???

If you play a game and spend no money on it... you have no reason to complain.

Pretty sure if you research via the internet about Free to Play games with micro transactions, you will learn that they are generally costing players more money in the long run.

If there is no advantage in purchasing items here there would be no reason for anyone to buy them. Every item your opponent has is an item you have access to if you want to purchase it.

There are plenty of IS mechs eating up Clan mechs that I have seen.

Powder Puff Pew Pew, on 26 June 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

This forum needs a DISLIKE option cuz I know this post would be riddled with holes of dislikes. I cant believe people are still calling this pay to win lol. Seriously!!! wow, they were all like PAY TO WIN after the Pheonix pack came out lol? Foreal and the same idiots are here at it again Pay to win guys!!!

Yes lets have a pole for Dislike button please. That way we don't even have to respond via another post that can Fan the Flames.

http://mwomercs.com/...dislike-button/

http://mwomercs.com/...dislike-button/

It appears to have been suggested before, no real response though.

Edited by Redbackz, 26 June 2014 - 07:18 PM.