I stopped reading at page 17...
Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:
Well good. You've identified 2 mechs you could probably buy without being guilty of paying for an advantage. Good luck doing that with the entire Clan invasion pack.
...yeah, I know. That's exactly what I was saying in the last post, so obviously you don't need to point it out to me. Still, some weapons are straight line upgrades with no drawbacks. SRM's, ER medium lasers, ER small lasers to name a few. LRM's probably come out pretty far ahead in the pros vs. cons if you're boating 'em, and while you can put cons on individual clan weapons, much of the time you can just mount more of them and cool them faster, which compensates for most of the drawbacks you can imagine. This isn't what the purpose of this thread is, though. I recognize that the weapon debate is a quagmire, and intentionally focus on the results individual player expect, and the results they accomplish using clan tech.
Finding one player that benefits from upgrading to clan tech is symbolic. There are no totally unique players in MWO. Everyone has the ability to aim a laser, lead a ballistic, fire an LRM, manage heat, find a good position, torso twist — to some degree everyone has all of those skills. If you can find one guy who will use ballistics if he has to, but really loves to use lasers, you'll find dozens just like that guy. Likewise if you find one guy who wants to just hang back and lob LRM's, but wants to pack some backup lasers just in case, you'll find dozens just like that. So if you find one guy that says he is performing better in Clan mechs due to the unique loadout it provides, then there will most likely be dozens just like him who would receive similar benefit.
I'll respond to the quote directed at me first...
I identified two mechs that wouldn't be good choices for me personally, and would actually be a detriment to me. According to you, if "some" people can gain a benefit from a cash only item, then it is P2W. Well, then that logic works in reverse. If "some" people would be hindered by a cash only item, then it is NOT P2W... This seems to run perfectly with your flow of logic. Thus, as none of the hero mechs can help me nor do they provide me personally with any advantages (and are actually a detriment to me), then none of the hero mechs are P2W using your own logic.... You grasp?
Herhum. I don't know much about clan SRMs to be honest (at this point), so I don't know how they are done yet. However, CER lasers all have longer ranges, but all of them run hotter, have longer beam durations (and thus also longer recycle rates from my knowledge) and become easier to spread their damage. This is not viewed as a direct upgrade by most people's standards, and is actually normally considered a downgrade to a different flavor of the same thing. CLRMs are actually less effective than ISLRMs. The CLRMs move a little faster, but ripple fire out of their tubes. This makes them more susceptible to AMS counters. The speed boost of CLRMs actually isn't that much, as it only makes the CLRMs start to hit before ISLRMs do. However, about in the middle of the CLRM ripple fire, the ISLRMs will hit.
Clan weapons are lighter, which does mean you can slip more of them onto a chassis. However, clan mechs only have "so much pod space" to work in. This helps to balance the amount of weapons they can take, as well as fixed structure/armor crits and other balance adjustments.
When I debate the Clan weapons, I'm looking at it as a whole package. I'm looking at the pros and cons of each weapon, and then the pros and cons of how those weapons can be mounted on the chassis of the clan mechs themselves, and then I'm also looking at the clan mechs themselves and how they have been designed. As an overall whole (and not the piecemeal sections you seem to want to look at them), they are well balanced and have actually very few advantages. Actually, they have a lot of disadvantages as well. Overall, I have found that fighting against clan mechs with IS tech (I own no clans), it was rather event of a fight and I did not feel disadvantaged. So, from my perspective and the evidence I have seen (and presented here), clan mechs operate differently and look different. They are not better nor worse than IS counterparts. (I bring this up again because you do not seem to be grasping the "looking at it as a whole" concept, and instead want to keep breaking it down to smaller bits and then shouting that this one piece here is "powerful" without looking at the many disadvantages that are also there.)
Your last paragraph makes a point, however the same can be said in reverse. It is not proof of anything for anything. I say this because, I can (and have) flipped your own statement around logically, and come to the same (opposite) conclusion. Your argument is flawed in the fact that you don't seem to have any proof saying otherwise. You bring up statements in a grand general remark, and then don't listen when someone takes that same logic and reverses it. It's the same statement you made, but it's just as true when reversed. Thus, this statement is unprovable. (Didn't you learn this in school? I remember that lesson well. Science. In order for a statement to be deemed as true, it's counter opposite statement must be proven false. If I say "Water and Salt applied to iron will oxidize it", and if someone else said "Water and Salt applied to iron will not oxidize it", and each statement is proven true, then each statement is false, as then water and salt have no effect on iron. However, as science will tell you, one statement is true, the other is false. Same argument applies here.)
Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 10:01 PM, said:
"pay for early access" to things that are pay to win are pay to win until the early access period is over. You've slipped into another useless definition of pay to win. It's a common mistake. You're probably the 10th person or so in this thread to make it.
...so you admit here that in your estimation some are a little better, yet can't accept that they are probably P2W. I guess that's why you want to specify that because they'll eventually be available for C-Bills disqualify them from being P2W.
Right... but we generally don't compare Assaults to Lights.
Everyone in tournament play disagrees with you. For their purposes the DS is invariably the best option. Refer to
Page 3.
The Hero mechs are a mixed bag. I don't really feel like debating each and every one, but suffice it to say that when someone is able to derive some sort of an advantage from picking a hero mech, they're paying for an advantage.
We have about 10 to 2 in favor of pay to get early not being P2W... Please, reconsider your statement on this.
They will be released for C-bills within about a months time (30ish days). The early release crowd got about 45 days of clans to themselves. By August, we will be able to have clan tech ourselves. (If you truly feel it is P2W to get early access to "different" tech, then you can always take a break for a month. I wont stop you.)
This argument is like saying a two week pre-release of a video game is P2W as the people who can play for an extra two weeks more than you (a free player) will have a level/item/etc advantage over you... I don't feel that would be P2W.
Actually, Assaults commonly get compared to lights, and how well they can handle them in a fight. People often times ridicule and suggest people not to play the Stalker because "a single light can get behind it and kill it". If this one fact has pushed many people away from the Stalker, I'd have to say it's something a lot of people would see as a disadvantage, thus reducing any P2W remarks on that mech.
Okay. Now, I want you to get "everyone in tournament play" to agree with you, and disagree with us. Ask them to post in this thread their opinions. I highly doubt "every" one of them will agree with you. Actually, I don't even know how many would...
They pay for something "different". Many things a Hero mech can do, another mech can also do or it just provides a different flavor for the mech. (Such as the X-5 and Mysery, as two eamples.)
Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 10:10 PM, said:
your match where you took your Dire Wolf which is obviously not even elited much less mastered, and got ditched by your team then died uselessly.
This is actually a team playing issue. When I play my Awesome, I've often times been ditched by the faster moving elements of my lance, and then was fed to the wolves as I was by myself. (Then they tell me I shouldn't be moving that slow and it's my fault.) You seem to be ignoring the point of his "tale" though. The point is, his Dashi is balanced by the fact he can't make it move faster, making it so his team often times leaves him alone and unsupported. The slow speed of the mech is a detriment.
I could instead bring up a story where I killed a Dashi with a sm laser... But I'd do that just for humor...
Also, if you wish to argue that the Dashi is P2W, you can also just wait till the end of september to get that specific clan mech, which is only 3 months away from now. (But you can't ignore the fact that we will have access to clan tech for C-bills on the first patch of August, which will nullify your entire argument anyway.)
Dunning Kruger Effect, on 25 June 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:
All the OP is pointing out is
#1. PGI is sneakily using a P2W model
#2. people are in denial that it is P2W
It really isn't P2W. It's a P2GE (Pay to Get Early). It will be released for the masses, and it really isn't even going to be that long of a wait. We had to wait longer for the Phoenix mechs to be released. I also never heard anyone tell me I was P2W with my Phoenix pack, as many of the things that the Phoenix mechs can do, so can most any other mech can already do. (I also feel that the Hunchback tends to be a better ride over the Shadowhawk, a common mech praised for being powerful in MWO.)
I'm not in any form of denial. I don't consider an early release/access program to be P2W, especially when the released items feel as well balanced as the Clan mechs seem to be to me. I don't feel they are P2W in the slightest, especially seen as I know I can get one for myself before too much longer.
(Also, I think you must have missed my own, and many other people's posts. I have not attacked (besides a single comment on him being a troll (AKA: Posting to create an emotional response)) the OP directly, and have only been aiming at his arguments. (I also have quoted his OP in this post, and will respond to each and every point there, just to be fair.)
N0MAD, on 25 June 2014 - 11:17 PM, said:
Again since there have been no instances (documented) of IS teams playing Clan teams to get any real evidence, then your NO statement is hype not fact.
Stock Mech Mondays. I wasn't in the clan drop side, but I was instead in the tech level 1 side (fewer players). Using only stock mechs, they thought playing them 10vs12 was fair, especially after opening up more tonnage for the IS players to use. Recall that this is stock IS mechs (and clan), where most of them have slow STD engines and SHS. They said it was a blast and was rather fun and well balanced, even when they were trying to perfectly match tonnage. (They were going by lore with stars and lances, hence the 12 vs 10 arrangement.)
Keira_NZ, on 25 June 2014 - 11:32 PM, said:
Clan machines get access to 1/2ton ammo
They have a twin Gauss/Twin PPC machine BUT its ponderous and even though it has CASE thats USELESS as its the gauss weapon itself that goes bang, not the ammo and Gauss cannons go boom alot!
They really aren't, CURRENTLY, the super weapons required to make them a PAY to WIN because winning is NOT guaranteed because you have a clan mech... at times its quite the opposite!
Like to make some corrections here:
IS also can now take 1/2 tons of ammo. My Battlemaster has a 1/2 ton of AMS ammo (because I had spare weight/crits).
CASE does help with Gauss Rifle Explosions. However, as with ammo explosions, if the Gauss Rifle explodes, it's probable going to be death to that section anyway... (But CASE will prevent the damage from moving inward).
Free CASE is balanced by the fact that clan mechs can't hide ammo as well. They have no crit spaces in their legs and most don't have one in their heads. This forces them to move ammo into the torso sections or even the arms. This increased risk is mitigated by CASE, but if that ammo explodes, it can still lead to an early removal of a fairly healthy section of your mech (and maybe the arm attached to that torso as well).
Clan mechs often times require more skill to use well, because of the longer beam durations, ripple fire weapons (missiles/acs) and other mechanics that drive a pilot to wish to keep their reticule on target. This also reduces the "Shot and twist" motion as well, making most clan mechs more efficient at "staring an opponent down" instead of "twisting damage around". (Hey! That rhymed!)
qki, on 25 June 2014 - 11:53 PM, said:
I find it quite hillarious how Atheus backed away from an argument that started with
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3507501
He responded to my first post, and then nothing following my reply.
That's okay. I he ignored one of my posts where I posted evidence to contradict him. He still hasn't responded to it. (And after over 200 responses since then, I don't expect him to either at this point.)
Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:
The debate over whether clan tech is P2W has been raging for days now. I finally realized that it's quite easy to prove the P2W status of clan tech. This line of reasoning was inspired by the intensely popular Dragon Slayer Victor.
- Strong mechs have a greater chance of winning than weak mechs.
- Players generally prefer a strong mech to a weak mech.
- Players will attempt to design the strongest mech they can to suit their current play style, or the play style they would like to adopt.
- In a competition setting, players will choose the mech they feel gives their team the best chance of winning.
- Pay to Win means that something that is only available for cash can provide an advantage that can not be duplicated by an equivalent non-cash item.
- Providing a date at which a pay-to-win item will be available for in-game currency does not change the pay-to-win nature of said item in the present.
A Dragon Slayer Victor is very similar in hard points to the VTR-9S, but in a competition setting you'll see almost exclusively DS variants. The reasons are obvious to anyone familiar with the chassis. They're amazingly good pop-tarts, and pop-tarts win competitions. But the reason they choose the DS over the 9S is because of the different positioning of the ballistic hard points. The pilots understand that having the weapons all on the right side is an advantage, and so as not to fall behind other pilots who have that advantage, they purchase and use the DS. This example is funny since they are not paying to win, they're paying to not lose to the other guys who paid to win. Their choice of the DS makes it impossible to deny that they are paying for advantages that are not available for C-Bills. Therefore, by choosing that mech to use to win tournaments, they confirm that in their most honest analysis, their best option is the DS, therefore confirming their own consent to PGI's pay to win game structure.
Stepping away from the tournament, let's have a look at Clan tech. It is available immediately for cash, but will gradually become available in the C-Bill market between August and November. That's 2 months before the first clan mech is available for C-Bills, and 5 until the last is released.
Clan tech has many unique attributes. Nearly all attributes deviate from IS tech, and while most of them are pros, some are cons. The question is how do we figure out which is better overall?
Well fortunately we don't need to come up with a consensus on which is better. Individual players will decide the answer based on their own estimations of what will best suit their play style. Some will be wrong, and make bad choices, but some will be right, and make good choices. Of the ones who are right, some will choose IS, and others will choose Clan. I can not irrefutably prove the existence of players who will both choose clan and be correct, but
I do feel it is a reasonable assertion that such a player can exist, and most likely does exist — possibly in large numbers.
I'd like to point out that it does not matter whether this hypothetical player is highly skilled, or modestly skilled. The question is whether Clan tech will improve their ability to kill enemies and/or win matches. If they can build a mech that is better suited to killing/winning using their play style with Clan tech than they can build using IS tech, they serve as living proof that Clan tech can indeed provide an advantage to certain players that currently can not be acquired with C-Bills.
Is this Clan advantage universal to all players? Maybe not. It doesn't particularly matter, though. Some players may find Clan tech does not suit their play style. That does not mean that other players can not boost their combat potential using clan tech. Thus, whether or not you feel you can personally benefit from Clan tech, you should absolutely recognize that it is a pay to win element that will continue to be just that until all of it is available for C-Bills.
First... Paragraphs people! Space! It's a giant wall'o'text. And you wonder why people didn't read the whole thing through? (Added in paragraphs for my sanity)
Okay. First. Dragonslayer. No interest. As some other people have stated, there are other Victors that can do the poptart thing just as well, if not better. I'm not a fan of the Victor (though I like it because it's a Davion mech), and I'm not a poptart kind of person (beside eating them that is). However, you present reasonable points as to why the DS could be P2W, though I personally don't believe that it is, and I believe that many of the free c-bill versions can fill in the role just as well. (Just without the 30% c-bill boost.) Why it was in the tournaments so much? Don't know. I didn't even pay attention to the tournament personally, so I can't respond to that. However, have you considered asking the people using those Victors why they chose that mech over other possible choices? Then, you could always post their response here. It might prove interesting.
Phoenix pack had a longer wait time if I recall correctly. No one complained (that I read on the forums at least) that those mechs were OP nor P2W. People where actually excited about when they would be released. This deal here is really no different. Clan tech isn't providing any perceivable advantage I can see as I am playing against them. Do I want to try the new stuff out? Of course I do. Do I feel that it's powerful? Yup. It hurts. Do I feel it is OP or P2W? Heck no. I'm killing them just as much as I was killing IS mechs before hand. Now, I just can stomp the invaders. ("They made one mistake, They invaded MY HOME PLANET". Summerset Strikers. Adam Steiner.)
Bolded part. We ARE telling you OUR CONSENSUSES. on the subject. However, you seem to be saying "I'm right, you are wrong, but I'm not going to tell you you are wrong, but your wrong." It's not working. The consensuses from most people that I am seeing responding to this thread is telling you they are different, but not OP or stronger. We are providing you your consensus for you, and then you decree how wrong we are. Wanna pass this by again?
And second bolded part. Here, you flat out tell us you have no "proof", but opinions and "assertions". Well? Which is it? Proof, or opinion? So far, I'm reading nothing but opinion here... And it's opinion based on "a couple of matches, and what smurfy says". Seem to me you jumped the conclusion without gaining any experience or knowledge on the subject, as well as seem to want to cry how they work without actually trying them yourself. I haven't played Clan tech yet, but I'd played against it enough already to confidently say it doesn't feel overpowered nor P2W here. We will be getting these mechs ourselves very shortly. Until then (and even afterwards), you will still find me in my IS mechs. Probably my Stock Huchback 4J even. And I'll still be doing fairly well in it as well.
if anyone can build a mech than can better match their play style, of course they will be better in that mech. Be it IS or Clan mechs. Clan mechs will probably have an easier time matching a play style because of their omni abilities. All variants of a clan mech can essentially be built exactly the same way. This is an advantage over IS mechs. However, it comes with many prices attached to it. However, the same can be said of IS mechs, with a little ingenuity.
Here I shall present my own playstyle. I like to have a nice balance between long range weapons and close range weapons. I actually and really well skilled with LRMs, and understand their mechanics well. After over a year of playing and tinkering with my mechs, I devised a
Stalker 3F build that worked perfect for me. Once I devised that build, and figured out the balance for it and my playing style, I then was able to copy that build onto several other mechs. Namely the
Hunchback 4SP, the
Griffin 3M, the
Thunderbolt 5S, and
some other mechs. Once I found this concept, I was able to craftily place this onto several other chassis, of different weight classes. Now, only certain variants of a mech can truely pull this off.
Now, armed with this knowledge, I could easily fit this into almost any clan mech, because of the advantages of Omni Pods. However, that doesn't mean that the clan mechs will preform these roles any better than my IS counterparts. However, Clan mechs would be easier for me to customize in this fashion. That is an advantage, but not falling into P2W.
I consider P2W to apply to advantages that give a player a large boost to efficiency, for cash only (forever) and will greatly improve one's chances of winning. Clans do not present that image to me, as well as they will be released eventually for "free".
My point being, anything you can do with a clan mech for "playstyle" can, with enough effort and searching, be repeated on an IS mech, and each will have their own advantages and disadvantages to each other. This balances out the equation.
Just because "Some" people can benefit from Clan tech doesn't make it P2W. Just because "some" people benefit from a hero mech doesn't make it P2W either. I've already shown myself that I'm having no problems fighting against the clans in my IS mechs, and I don't feel disadvantaged at all in the process. (Heck. I'm doing it in a stock mech, which as I said before, should say something.) Just because you personally feel they are P2W does not mean they are P2W.
Some
Definitions you can look up for P2W. What I had quickly read did not seem to include what you refer to as a definition. Paying to gain an early access to items does not seem to fit into the common P2W definition... (And playing a clan mech doesn't mean you will win, or will stand any better of a chance against players with more skill.)
(Warning: Some mistakes might be here, and I may have rambled a bit. I worked for 11 hours today, and spent 2+ hours reading this singular thread/making this singular post. So please excuse any tiny mistakes.)
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This topic is locked
, then it is not pay to win.
