77 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 25 June 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

I just tried NARC for teh first time today, in every respect it is inferior to TAG.
1. It doesn't work through ECM (someone suggested LOS, but I may as well have TAG at that point)
2. It takes a missile slot, I prefer to use my missile hardpoints for useful missiles
3. Hide My Ass Module, I thought it didn't work against this module, but there are so many ways to hide from narc, I can't be sure if this blocked it or ECM blocked it.

All in All a waste of a hardpoint, tonnage, and ammo.
If you are scout, and can maintain LOS to the target, maybe it will work for you allies (if you are lucky enough to have a LRMs on your team), but under any other circumstance nothing is 10x better, and TAG is 1000x better. Personally I am probably going to use those 4 tons to get myself halfway to an ERPPC, which does just as good of a job.

Personally I don't see very much use at all for NARC on the LRM mechs themselves, it's a lot more useful on a light scout mech to zoom in and make somebody a missile magnet for 30 seconds as well as them showing up on your whole team's radar, unless they have ECM coverage from another mech of course.

I guess you could try it in a medium LRM mech, but that usually means getting in too close for how fast you can go, where as lights can pop a NARC and escape fairly easily if they're not scrubs or horribly outnumbered.

[Kilo 40]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 25 June 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

Don't forget that if you have multiple people shoot the target you are going to do way more than 90 damage. I am just saying that unlimited damage is really punishing to anyone especially with the current maps we have and LRM trajectories.

I don't think you understand, it's SUPPOSED to be punishing.

[xXBagheeraXx]

It should get knocked off when you get hit with a ppc, or not broadcast under ECM.....as you said getting narced is an absolute death sentence if they have a decent amount of lrms and you cant get cover....At the very least could we get some indicator in our cockpit letting us KNOW we are narced? The second I see that I would like to know i need to run for the nearest hill/mountin/building not hide behind some cover and wonder why the flying flip im still getting "incoming missile"

[ExoForce]

I prefere UAV instead of NARC...

[JohnnyWayne]

Varik Ronain, on 25 June 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

Says the guy with piss poor sportsmanship. I just played you on caustic and your team had 3, count them 3 ECM mechs while ours had none. I was in a 4 man talking on TS and used *gasp* narc, tag and uav to remove the ECM.. we won 12-3 and did the normal gg everyone. Your highness Johnny would have none of it. Your attitude is piss poor and instead of raging perhaps your team could have played like a team and pushed or done anything other than cower in ECM bubbles and slowly wither under LRM rain.

You were the guy that told me I was narced and I told you it didn't bother me, I wasn't nearly hit anyway. Was suprised too that about that. Probably due to the ECM shielding.

There is no gg when you stomp a team. There is a gg when it is close, everyone has had a fun time. There is no GG especially from the side that won. Your sportmansship is for the pooper. It is an insult to everyone on the opposing team.

And no. I don't take any countermeasures against LRM. I don't take any against other weapons why would I need to use one against LRM? explain me? LOS, cover all hard counters to any other weapon system. I won't accept LRMs to step out of the line there.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 26 June 2014 - 12:37 AM.

[Varik Ronain]

I grew up playing sports and no matter how badly we beat the other team or how sound of a beating we took; we always lined up after the game and said good game. There is such negativity in the game already that people should not add to it.


GG is exactly that... good game!

[JohnnyWayne]

It was not, if it was not its a lie, its a freaking insult to the opposing team.

Moreover, this is no sport and it sure as hell was no good game if there are a bunch of sissies on the other team that are hiding behind their LRMs.

[wanderer]

Quote

GG is exactly that... good game!

A good game implies you actually had competition.

When your opponent loses 1 'Mech for every 4 he kills, you weren't competition. You were target practice. If anything, I tend to apologize for the stomp at that point.

Quote

Moreover, this is no sport and it sure as hell was no good game if there are a bunch of sissies on the other team that are hiding behind their LRMs.

It is, however a very good game when I get someone whining about LRMs because their team marched into the center with no defenses and randomly explodes under a barrage of LRM fire. You don't have ECM, don't go center. Use the ridges instead, which are steep enough to block missile fire from the caldera and allow you to both jump-snipe or ridge-hump to return fire to the exposed opponents.

Seriously, it's about as dumb as taking a team with a pack of LRM boats into the basement of HPG Manifold. Yet people do it all the time. But you can't cure stupid.

[Varik Ronain]

wanderer, on 26 June 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

A good game implies you actually had competition.

When your opponent loses 1 'Mech for every 4 he kills, you weren't competition. You were target practice. If anything, I tend to apologize for the stomp at that point.



It is, however a very good game when I get someone whining about LRMs because their team marched into the center with no defenses and randomly explodes under a barrage of LRM fire. You don't have ECM, don't go center. Use the ridges instead, which are steep enough to block missile fire from the caldera and allow you to both jump-snipe or ridge-hump to return fire to the exposed opponents.

Seriously, it's about as dumb as taking a team with a pack of LRM boats into the basement of HPG Manifold. Yet people do it all the time. But you can't cure stupid.

I always though of the ggclose to be an insult. I try... key word try to be civil because you never know when a new player is in a match. The game is so new player friendly I am scared that our attitude will scare potential players away.

But in reference to the match I was talking about where we beat Johnny's team I would like to clarify some things. They had ECM, 3 different mechs. We had no ECM. We worked as a team to overcome that and to imply that it was just LRMs they wrecked them would be a lie. We had an atlas k and a dire whale guarding the corner that separated us from them near the caldera. To imply that I "hid" behind LRMs is making it sound like it was easy to make the LRMs effective in the first place. It was not easy, it was a lot of coordination and effort to get that win.

[Shlkt]

NARC is in a strange place right now. Recent buffs have made it fun to experiment with, but the existence of a passive, 100% counter (i.e.: ECM) means that it can never become a predominant tactic in organized play. If it was a dominant tactic then organized groups would just bring more ECM to counter the NARC... and then NARC usage would no longer be popular because it'd be wasted tonnage in most of your matches. In other words, an increase in NARC usage would eventually cause a decrease in NARC usage, so it'll always be a seldom-used tactic (assuming it's viable at all).

I'm ignoring the fact that most organized groups rarely employ LRMs and also know how to move under cover.

Two days I ago I dropped w/ a NARC against a team of six ECM mechs: 3 DDC, 2 kit fox, and a spider. There was so much overlapping ECM coverage that my NARC was completely useless until their team had already been routed. I could help with the cleanup but my NARC was otherwise extra baggage. Very frustrating experience... at least an LRM boat can try to dumb-fire missiles, or use TAG to cut through ECM.

Having said all that... it's still fun to bring NARC into disorganized games, especially if your friends are running missile boats. Even unorganized players will eventually adapt, though, so you usually can't rely on that tactic for the whole evening (*cough* unlike poptarting...).

Edited by Shlkt, 26 June 2014 - 05:04 AM.

[Wintersdark]

To true. Its also why LRM's rarely kill anyone other than really poor players and newbies - there are many counters available, and the more LRM's that make it into matches the more people (at least, moderate+ Elo folks) start taking those counters and negating LRM's entirely, making them wasted payload space. Too unreliable, due to factors outside of your control.

[JohnnyWayne]

Varik Ronain, on 26 June 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

We had no ECM. We worked as a team to overcome that and to imply that it was just LRMs they wrecked them would be a lie.

You had a premade, we had not. Thats all left to say. I had matches where the team did not hide behind LRMs, they had tons and they still pushed. Was a glorious brawl. We didn't have such a thing. Wonder wihy... A yeah right. Half of your team just stood there while these 1337 victor poptarts (on my team) played mechpogostick. And you are a sissie because I actually didn't flame you ingame, but the first thing you did on here was insultung me. You should see how I flame real lameass teams.

In that match, narc was no problem because of ECM. In matches without ECM and a LRM heavy team it is already hard enough without narc. Right now narc is sort of overperforming.

I have the impression that not only narc is in a strange place, it's more like all the LRM mechanics are. Indirect fire seems so hard to balance properly, all these additions surrounding it like ECM, NARC and AMS, havn't imporved it. The more I think about it, the more the whole idea needs a redesign... That incluedes the removal of ECM, such as indirect fire without C3...

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 26 June 2014 - 05:21 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

BigBadVlad, on 25 June 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

Top tip, Powering your mech down after hiding behind something makes your mech disappear to the enemy, even when NARC'ed. At least before NARC update anyway. Haven't had the chance to try this recently.

If you have teammates nearby and have just a light harasser or two that narc'ed you, find a building or hill, snuggle up and shutdown for 30 seconds. you'll have some missiles still hit you because they were already launched and tracking you to where you shut down. You'll be out of the fight for a bit but it's better than trying to run around for the full duration AND still taking LRM's. Obviously powering down with a Daishi on you is not a good idea...

If you're near your team you could probably just go full speed and then power down to dodge the incoming missiles while they watch your back.

[ztac]

I have to laugh at things like Narc , my timberwolf lasted 6 seconds under a missile barrage despite being behind a rather large hill, seems like an I win button with all the LRM in the game now. I have been on both ends incidentally and yes it is funny to watch mechs go down under a hail of Narc assisted LRM (not for the pilot no doubt as I only know all too well).

The real question is that should they really allow players to just sit back and pound the hell out of other players?
The real problem is maybe not just the Narc though? But the way the teams are balanced , Been in a lot of matches with no ECM , yet the other team that is LRM heavy also has ECM... figure that one out! (point of ECM is Narc counter and tag for that matter, we could not even counter their ecm in that case).

The game is in a very strange place right now in that lances can not function as you would expect , if you do get an ECM mech it is usually just the one, and everyone tends to have to be in range or risk dying to LRM's , ams is very poor right now as an effective counter as is going into cover , radar deprivation module wont work if someone has eyes on you. seems powering down is probably the most effective counter , but do you really want to do that all the time?

Edited by ztac, 26 June 2014 - 10:02 AM.

[Varent]

I dont really think this item needs a nerf though I do think the clan version needs its ranged toned down significantly.

However I will say that they need to update the warning system. I think that Betty needs to start warning us when we are NARC'd.

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

It should stay as is but instead of giving a 30 second free lrm rain, it should be 10 seconds. This way the lurm boat can scrub-a-dub-dub around with his lurms and deal damage. W/out absolutely killing any mech that gets narced. Current state, if you get narced you die, unless you are on a city map in which case you just get crippled.
Narc could actually stay the same if the path of lrms was adjusted a bit. Currently they can be lobbed over buildings and hit mechs hiding behind buildings. This shouldn't work. The lurm boat may be able to lob them over a building but the angle at which the lrms attack the enemy needs to be lowered to allow for hiding behind cover. Escpecially in tall mechs like the atlas you are pretty screwed getting lurmed.

Edited by POOTYTANGASAUR, 26 June 2014 - 10:55 AM.

[Kitty Bacon]

I am one of those pilots who uses NARC for other reasons than to paint a target for missile It can not broadcast under ECM, 3 AMS can shoot it down.. Hell, one AMS takes it down to half health if it is shot from over 200m away and because if its slow speed, its hard to tag a target with it. But when you do it is all the more worth it. It disables ECM and broadcasts the target hit. I use it both for LRM boats and for other duties. Say an ECM mech is giving to much cover for his team but we have no LRM boats. I tag the ECM mech with my narc and that disables the ECM for his team for 30 seconds... IF he lacks AMS. If him and another mech have AMS, that narc ain't going anywhere.

NARC is in a really nice spot right now because it can broadcast for a long time and both teams can tell when someone is narc'd. Communication is vital in this game anyways, and Narc just puts that back into people's thoughts. There are many ways you can counter Narc, but one thing I wish they did is that PPC fire can knock it off. If they did that, it would make the weapon all the more balanced.

NARC does not stack with art. If an LRM boat has art and they lack LoS, they will be able to get locks on the narc'd target, but won't be able to get the accuracy bonus. Only mechs without art get the full benefits of it. Narc, Tag and UAVs make it all the better to run a light scout mech. No need for a 2 ERLL Raven since a Kit Fox with 2 ERMlas, 2 MGs and a narc can do sooooooooooo much more. Or a Raven with a tag, 2 Mlas, a SRM4 and a narc can really ruin a team's day if the pilot is smart and is only out to get those vital locks for the artillery mechs.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Spheroid, on 25 June 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

@Agent O Fortune: You must be running heavier mechs. The Jenner-K is sublime.

Pjwned, on 25 June 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

Personally I don't see very much use at all for NARC on the LRM mechs themselves, it's a lot more useful on a light scout mech to zoom in and make somebody a missile magnet for 30 seconds as well as them showing up on your whole team's radar, unless they have ECM coverage from another mech of course.

I guess you could try it in a medium LRM mech, but that usually means getting in too close for how fast you can go, where as lights can pop a NARC and escape fairly easily if they're not scrubs or horribly outnumbered.

I was running a Stormcrow (97 KPH) with 2x LRM20, 1xNarc, 1xTAG, 4xERSL
My strategy was to use my Speed to Narc a target and fall back to LRM from cover.
When the first poptart floated into view I thought, perfect. I stuck him with a Narc and waited for lock, then he vanished.....

I was really hoping that I could use NARC as a substitute for TAG, since it weighs twice as much, consumes ammo, and is difficult to land (150m/s IIRC), when I am using TAG I feel like I may as well be using a Large Laser, and just do direct damage instead of farting around with shooting someone with a laser and doing damage 5 seconds later.

[Pjwned]

POOTYTANGASAUR, on 26 June 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

It should stay as is but instead of giving a 30 second free lrm rain, it should be 10 seconds. This way the lurm boat can scrub-a-dub-dub around with his lurms and deal damage. W/out absolutely killing any mech that gets narced. Current state, if you get narced you die, unless you are on a city map in which case you just get crippled.
Narc could actually stay the same if the path of lrms was adjusted a bit. Currently they can be lobbed over buildings and hit mechs hiding behind buildings. This shouldn't work. The lurm boat may be able to lob them over a building but the angle at which the lrms attack the enemy needs to be lowered to allow for hiding behind cover. Escpecially in tall mechs like the atlas you are pretty screwed getting lurmed.

I don't agree with NARC lasting only 10 seconds because that would be way too little time, but I could agree with the angle of fire being toned down a bit because it can get really ridiculous.

[wanderer]

ztac, on 26 June 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

I have to laugh at things like Narc , my timberwolf lasted 6 seconds under a missile barrage despite being behind a rather large hill, seems like an I win button with all the LRM in the game now. I have been on both ends incidentally and yes it is funny to watch mechs go down under a hail of Narc assisted LRM (not for the pilot no doubt as I only know all too well).

And here is the difference between "concealment" and "cover".

A hill is a nice gentle slope LRMs go over just fine if someone's spotting- but blocks line-of-sight. It's "concealment". NARC acts as a spotter. Your hill is meaningless.

A sharp vertical piece of terrain is "cover"- that is, it'll absorb missile hits. Even the small buildings on Frozen City are cover in many cases. Cover will usually, but not always block LOS- the docks on Crimson are cover that you can see the target just fine, but your missiles will obviously blow up harmlessly on the top of the docks.

Quote

The real question is that should they really allow players to just sit back and pound the hell out of other players?
The real problem is maybe not just the Narc though? But the way the teams are balanced , Been in a lot of matches with no ECM , yet the other team that is LRM heavy also has ECM... figure that one out! (point of ECM is Narc counter and tag for that matter, we could not even counter their ecm in that case).

The MM doesn't care what a 'Mech has at this point- but since the best LRM spotters (the Raven-3L and Kit Fox) both can pack NARC and ECM, it means the ideal LRM team often has a liberal helping of both. The lower the ELO, the less people tend to focus on taking ECM seriously...and thus, are easier prey for missile boats.

Quote

The game is in a very strange place right now in that lances can not function as you would expect , if you do get an ECM mech it is usually just the one, and everyone tends to have to be in range or risk dying to LRM's , ams is very poor right now as an effective counter as is going into cover , radar deprivation module wont work if someone has eyes on you. seems powering down is probably the most effective counter , but do you really want to do that all the time?

AMS rips apart Clan LRMs, but it's less effective on the 30+ clouds that IS boats tend to launch- and again, it works better when more people use it. ECM is and has always been the best missile defense, and much like multiple LRM boats, layered ECM is the best choke on missiles. One can do it. Two or three together tend to render LRMs impotent at best.