173 replies to this topic

[kosmos1214]

Nightmare1, on 28 May 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

Even this one?

i think you may safely add one internet to your score

[Ryoken]

House Davion... a faction of mary sue incarnate... what a boring joke...

[Catra Lanis]

Republic of the Sphere. It's a fascist nanny state with thin velvet gloves. I don't see why Vicor Davion thought it was such a good idea to support Stone, it's no better than the big houses really, possibly with the exception of The Capellan Confederation.

Edited by Catra Lanis, 29 May 2015 - 05:04 AM.

[Selene Lunaris]

As far as stuff in-game goes, I've never super liked the Free Worlds League and the Federated Suns.

Actual lore? Republic of the Sphere. Its entire EXISTENCE doesn't even make sense.

[Anjian]

Davion - House of Mary Sue.

Steiner - I don't understand this fist thing for their emblem. It feels Communist for me.

FedCom -- Outdated European style royalty institution.

Republic of the Sphere --- Star Wars knockoff fascist state run by Jedi like elites.

Kurita --- Based on mistaken Western viewed stereotypes of Japan.

Edited by Anjian, 31 May 2015 - 02:55 AM.

[Anjian]

Yes I don't like both Steiner and Davion just the same as FedCom.

On the second issue, don't you even know that the Republic of the Sphere didn't appear in Battletech lore until AROUND 2003? Its part of the Mechwarrior Dark Age. We are talking 3100s here. This was already past after the first Star Wars prequel was shown. Republic of the Sphere was basically controlled by an elite group of knights called "Paladins". That just screams "Jedi" for me and everyone. Furthermore, the Republic of the Sphere went down the same road as the Old Republic did ---- they started off with mighty ideals, but enemies outside and within turned them into a fortress state.

On Kurita, really do you know about Feudal Japan? Feudal Japan won't use a Dragon for its symbol --- that symbol is basically Chinese. If you truly know Japanese feudal lore, they often use FLOWERS for their symbols as well as similar symmetric patterns.



And seriously, Kamekaze isn't part of Japanese samurai tradition. It is an aberration a sheer act of desperation in a battle they thought that would destroy their civilization. Japan in World War 2 is not an "honorable" state. They fought with considerable atrocity. There was a bunch of old men sitting behind their desk that were willing to throw thousands and thousand of young lives into wasteful, futile battles, and then appreciate the rest of the afternoon drinking tea.

When "Kurita" was made in Battletech, Nintendo wasn't even invented yet, or more like they were about to. Kurita was named after an admiral in the IJN during WW2. Takeo Kurita led the Japanese fleet in the battles around the Philippines against overwhelming forces. Among the ships in his command during the time were the battleships Yamato and Musashi.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Takeo_Kurita

He was a dedicated officer, knew that his superiors (yes one of those old men) sent him, his men and their ships were sent as hopeless sacrifices against overwhelming American might. But he didn't believed in dying for vain and he was criticized (euphemistically, he was disgraced that there are people who wanted to kill him or demand his suicide) for not pressing his fleet to score what might be a possible though arguable victory against US forces and for surviving those battles (not very honorburu, but he was a greater man than a samurai). He survived long past the war and lived humbly ever since then.

Edited by Anjian, 03 June 2015 - 01:21 AM.

[kosmos1214]

Anjian, on 03 June 2015 - 12:21 AM, said:

snip Nintendo wasn't even invented yet, snip

the only thing ill add the that the company did exist the game system not so much nintendo was founded in 1889 as a mater of fact http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo
other then that its all correct and very well put together

[Impossible Wasabi]

Most, if not all of the factions have their moments of less than wonderful behavior and depending on the writing they seem to take turns acting as the "ridiculously exaggerated villains" for a novel or two.

In principle the Space Pope finds the Clans rather abhorrent, largely because they are a bunch of Space fascists obsessed with eugenics.

Ultimately though, BT is a bit like Warhammer 40K in that it would be a pretty terrible universe to actually live in (constant warfare, crazy leaders, corrupt leaders, etc., etc.,).

Edited by The True Space Pope, 03 June 2015 - 12:14 PM.

[Mech42Ace]

The True Space Pope, on 03 June 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

Most, if not all of the factions have their moments of less than wonderful behavior and depending on the writing they seem to take turns acting as the "ridiculously exaggerated villains" for a novel or two.

In principle the Space Pope finds the Clans rather abhorrent, largely because they are a bunch of Space fascists obsessed with eugenics.

Ultimately though, BT is a bit like Warhammer 40K in that it would be a pretty terrible universe to actually live in (constant warfare, crazy leaders, corrupt leaders, etc., etc.,).

Just one question... Is the Space Pope reptilian?

[Richard Hazen]

I always thought Kurita was a mixture of eastern cultures, not just Japanese.

[Valar13]

Probably the Jags for me.

Chaotic evil, stubborn to the point of stupidity, and basically space {Godwin's Law} in every conceivable way.

[SnagaDance]

Deimos Alpha, on 03 June 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

I always thought Kurita was a mixture of eastern cultures, not just Japanese.

True, while it is mainly Japanese the original House Kurita Handbook has this to say about the Founder Shiro Kurita: "The Household of his father Kamaro was based on the ascetic samurai culture of 17th century Japan. Though it has never been clear that the Kuritas could trace their lineage back to this early Japanese warrior class, it is true that Shiro always identified strongly with the thought and culture of pre-Exodus Asian Terra. Exactly which thoughts and what aspects of the culture he identified with most depended on his needs and goals at any given time."

So mainly Japanese but cherry-picking other Asian aspects as suited his needs. After all, he was trying to unite a very diverse fledgling realm under one type of social order.

The naming of the Draconis Combine itself was probably also partly Asian inspired and partly necessity. He wanted to get rid of the 'Alliance of Galedon', a name he had come up back in the days to help powerful Galedon support his cause (and downplay his own involvement from New Samarkand). His realm was also bordered by the 'Draconis Rift', a rather empty piece of space in terms of star systems. Using this for the name of his new empire cleverly invoked and reinforced his Asian societal structure plans, even when the Dragon is in essence not that strong of a Japanese symbol, it has always been a strong symbol, even outside of Asia. Very clever use of symbolism I say.

[Dingo Battler]

Marack Drock, on 06 June 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

False: Nintendo created the Famicom in 1983. They also had created the Game & Watch or whatever it was called in the 70's. You are completely wrong. BattleTech didn't even come into existence until 1984.

Next in the 16th Century Japan created the first rendition of kamikazes. They would load gunpowder onto fast little boats loaded usually by a crew up about 10 men and those boats were designed to drive themselves into the enemy and explode.

Next Kamikaze attacks were not a last resort out of sheer desperation. They began in 1941, 4 years before we nuked them. It was trained into them and was common throughout the entire Pacific Theater.

Suicidal attacks were very common because of the Bushido code of honor (which was what the Samurai abided by). It was more honorable to die in combat or from suicide then to fall into enemy hands, and suicide attacks out of honor were common throughout Japan.

Also I said based on Feudal Japan. Which it is. In BattleTech many of the men of Kruita still observe Bushido and practice Seppuku (suicide by stomach cutting). Yeah they use a stupid Dragon symbol, I said they were based on Feudal Japan, I didn't say they were an exact replication.

Kamikaze and suicide attacks were common in Japan throughout their entire history. Kamikazes were never a last resort nor was it done out of desperation. They did it from the start of the Pacific Campaign until the end of it. The first Kamikaze attack was in Pearl Harbor carried out by Fusata Lida. The Kamikaze planes weren't made till later, but the practice of committing suicide and bombing the enemy was practiced throughout the entire war.

No offence, but I think your view of Japan is a very romanticised,white bread, western fetishistic view of Japan, where the Asians are strange savages that the civilised westerners must save. Samurai were basically rich mercenaries who were contracted under a lord. Kamikaze pilots were academics rounded up, beaten into submission, welded into a cockpit, stripped of landing gears, and were basically dead the moment they stepped into the cockpit. Bushido DID NOT EXIST till Japan had the nationalistic push in the 19th century.

Sauces:

Kamikaze: http://www.press.uch...ago/619508.html
Samurai/Bushido: https://thegoldeneggs.wordpress.com/

Also, when westerners die in a suicide charge (thermopylae, charge of the light brigade), its considered heroic, noble, patriotic and beautiful, but when Asians do it, its yellow peril, bushido, Asian esotericism, brainwashing and evil?

Edited by KBurn85, 08 June 2015 - 04:32 AM.

[Dingo Battler]

Marack Drock, on 08 June 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

Bushido was first developed in its earliest forms in 721 in a script called Kojiki. It was a detailed military standard text and an early form of what would Bushido. This text was adopted by all the military. There were also several other texts later written throughout the following years to detail honor and such codes, before being comprised into Bushido (which means Way of the Warrior or the Samurai Life). The concept of suicide killing without actual gain was practiced commonly in Japan. Next how often do Westerners knowingly and purposefully charge into a suicide attack? The Japanese practiced it without a goal. They only did it because they would rather cut out their own intestines than be captured (seppuku). Bushido's first texts were also written in the 16th century. The Samurai didn't die out till the 19th.

Also I find it interesting you take such offense and think I am racist for saying the truth about not all Asians but about one single civilization. I am perfectly fine with stating that westerners are giant murderers. The Crusades, Holy Wars, Puritans, etc were no picnic. But the reason I don't mention them is because the topic was Kruita a d how it could be based on a Feudal Japan. Also people lined up to volunteer for kamikaze attacks. In the first ever attack the volunteers were more numerous than the planes available. The commander of the unit said they were like bees. It wasn't till later in 1945 when people were forced into planes. Most of the pilots were credited saying they would gladly blow themselves up in suicide rather than be captured. Nationalists to this day glorify that attacks.

Also in America a suicide charge is always considered disgusting and wasteful. At least where I live it is. I am not racist I am realistic. Japan has the most messed up **** going on other than Germany at the time. They DID brainwash people, they practiced a honor bound ritualistic suicide, and they believed it was more honorable to let out their stomachs, blow up, be shot in the head, than it was to be captured. And they practiced it throughout their history.

1 word. Source?

The wiki you took the suicide volunteer paragraph goes on, at the very next sentence, to say that it is likely propaganda, and never happened.
The wiki you took your spiel on bushido literally says that it is a modern term in the very first paragraph.

I don't mind wikipedia as a souce, but don't use half-quotes out of context from articles to prove your point. You're going to college soon, and there's a term for that. It's called academic dishonesty, and the penalty ranges from failing to being expelled.

Since you like to use wiki, I'll dump this paragraph which you did not quote:

As time wore on, however, modern critics questioning the nationalist portrayal of kamikaze pilots as noble soldiers willing to sacrifice their lives for the country have emerged. In 2006, Tsuneo Watanabe, Editor-in-Chief of the Yomiuri Shimbun, criticized Japanese nationalists' glorification of kamikaze attacks:^[37][38][39]

It's all a lie that they left filled with braveness and joy, crying, 'Long live the emperor!' They were sheep at a slaughterhouse. Everybody was looking down and tottering. Some were unable to stand up and were carried and pushed into the plane by maintenance soldiers.

Also, I hope you told the soldiers who died at Nomandy, and the defenders at Alamo "disgusting and wasteful" Maybe you should go kick over and spit on their grave stones. Is it not possible for Asians to feel patriotic and want to die for their country?

I hope you do realise that Asians are people too, that can fear, feel, and be compelled to bravery. They're not a faceless horde compelled to die for "muh bushidos"

You've been watching too much madame butterfly and reading too much fu manchu kiddo.

Edited by KBurn85, 08 June 2015 - 04:38 PM.