155 replies to this topic

[Iskareot]

Hopefully the MM system will help fix this. I have seen some stupid LRM driven drops again myself. I think once the MM system is working (new one) then we could see more balance to the drops.

[Mystere]

nemesis271989, on 27 June 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

Finally, at least one person who agrees that problem exits.
Thank you man

Just because another person agrees with you does not mean it is a real problem. I'm just saying.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mercules, on 27 June 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

PPCs + Gauss has set me from 100% to 40%, less than half a mech remaining. Light Mech, turned a corner while a mech was looking right at it, should have kept running but decided to swerve and try and get back into cover.

NARC rarely leaves half a mech, let's be real.

Again, not part of the PPCs + Gauss OP crowd. Very useful weapons in nearly every situation not matter what the opponent is currently piloting that doesn't have hard counters that weigh 1.5 tons.

Lol that is a cardinal sin in a light. You can't try to turn around when it leaves you as an immobile target in the eyes of an assault.

Depending on the map, NARC can be much more devastating then PPC+Gauss, and you have a chance to shoot someone with PPC+Gauss.

I'm actually pretty sure NARC results in less than half a mech remaining in more instances then PPC+Gauss but I don't have numbers to back that up. Just my experience.

I don't know why all you LRM buffs are hating on me, my first post in this thread was saying that NARC can happen and it is frustrating but its not the end of the world, and has its place in this game as is. I.E. Not OP.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 27 June 2014 - 09:46 AM.

[Xenoid]

LRM usage is indeed up. Pre Clan, one ton of ammo for AMS was usually enough to get me through a game. Now, one ton of AMS ammo is gone in the first few minutes.

[Mystere]

Jherek C, on 27 June 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

This was aimed at the MM not at the LRM boats. The other team had AMS too. I don't mind if someone boats LRM, he could be on my team and help me. But when the MM puts the two available ECM in one team and leaves the other without at all, I start to think: WTF enough with randomness now, lets have some balance!
Yes MM needs to take loadout into account.

Hmm. So you want the game to balance ECM distribution.

Should the game also balance by LRM, SRM, SSRM, AC20, CUltra-AC20, Gauss, PPC, ERPPC, CERPPC, and by all other weapons, modules, and whatever else that exists in the game?

Edited by Mystere, 27 June 2014 - 09:49 AM.

[DAYLEET]

LRM always was the force multiplier on the battlefield if you werent boating them but had many people with them. Now thats its easy to have at least one POD with LRM on every mech you should at least always have 1 LRM 15, with just 1 you dont need lots of ammo. If 8 guys have at least 1 lrm it's hell for the enemy team, it's too much, they cant escape and mostly have to charge, if you only have 1 lrm you can fully take that charge head on because you didnt sacrifice any weapon to be a dumb boat.

Lights have their role now, and it is more important than ever. spot/narc/tag and ofcourse be an annoyance and get the kills that are running away.

[Mercules]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 June 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

Lol that is a cardinal sin in a light. You can't try to turn around when it leaves you as an immobile target in the eyes of an assault.

Depending on the map, NARC can be much more devastating then PPC+Gauss, and you have a chance to shoot someone with PPC+Gauss.

I'm actually pretty sure NARC results in less than half a mech remaining in more instances then PPC+Gauss but I don't have numbers to back that up. Just my experience.

I don't know why all you LRM buffs are hating on me, my first post in this thread was saying that NARC can happen and it is frustrating but its not the end of the world, and has its place in this game as is. I.E. Not OP.

You need to understand I am not "hating on you" I am poking holes in your poorly argued stance. I mirrored you post showing you that PLAYING BADLY in a Light makes certain direct fire weapons seem really powerful and allows them to remove half a mech but I am a bit less likely to get killed by NARC in a light simply because of the advantages of that frame. On the other hand, PLAYING BADLY in an Assault will get you killed by a NARC but likely not killed by 2PPCs+Gauss like it would a Light.

If you play poorly and ALLOW someone to NARC you the fault is not the weapon system, it was your play. If you play poorly and slow down in front of a 2 PPC + Gauss mech in a light, the fault is not the weapon system it was your play. See, I can admit when MY mistakes make a weapon really useful against me.... how about you?

[RockmachinE]

I agree there's too much LRMing going on, you have to try really hard not to get locked constantly. I think part of the problem is the prevelance of LRMs on Clan mechs. It seems these days everyone is sporting at least some flavor of LRM. Of course you will say it's not always like this and it's true, there are many games where LRM does not play a role, but at the same time, before the Clan invasion there was way less LRM usage overall in PUBs. I find myself being extremely tactical and hiding quite a bit compared to before. I'm not saying its nothing we can't deal with, but it does get very frustrating getting locked on constantly everytime as soon as you just so much as fart. And being a non missile user the problem gets compounded. I have switched many efforts into counter messures and find myself piloting a ECM Raven for the first time in my life out of spite and I do quite well at protecting my big bros too.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 27 June 2014 - 10:08 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mercules, on 27 June 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

You need to understand I am not "hating on you" I am poking holes in your poorly argued stance. I mirrored you post showing you that PLAYING BADLY in a Light makes certain direct fire weapons seem really powerful and allows them to remove half a mech but I am a bit less likely to get killed by NARC in a light simply because of the advantages of that frame. On the other hand, PLAYING BADLY in an Assault will get you killed by a NARC but likely not killed by 2PPCs+Gauss like it would a Light.

If you play poorly and ALLOW someone to NARC you the fault is not the weapon system, it was your play. If you play poorly and slow down in front of a 2 PPC + Gauss mech in a light, the fault is not the weapon system it was your play. See, I can admit when MY mistakes make a weapon really useful against me.... how about you?

Yes my mistake was not expecting an enemy with NARC (because NARC really isn't that common) to be waiting for me to poke my head out. If he didn't happen to be there, I would have been fine. Took a gamble and lost, but we still won... lost half my weapons but I managed to limp around and do fine. I brought up that situation to really just show the people that have gotten slammed by LRMs and NARC and such to show that I empathize (I know it sucks sometimes, but its okay).

My view is that if you slip up, NARC can really screw you, some maps are much worse than others. What was my poorly argued stance? I agree with you that LRMs and NARC are not OP so I'm confused.

[Mystere]

DAYLEET, on 27 June 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

Lights have their role now, and it is more important than ever. spot/narc/tag and ofcourse be an annoyance and get the kills that are running away.

Lights have always had their role. People just did not perform them because they were thinking in terms of c-bills and XP, not winning. It's the farmer mentality.

[Mercules]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 June 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

My view is that if you slip up, NARC can really screw you, some maps are much worse than others. What was my poorly argued stance? I agree with you that LRMs and NARC are not OP so I'm confused.

My view is that if you slip up ALL WEAPONS can really screw you. If you make a mistake your opponent can and will kill you. NARC has nothing to do with it. it is more effective on Assaults that lumber across the batlefield and less on Lights who often carry counters or can get to safety in time. On the other hand an AC20 can annoy and threaten an Assault and cripple a Light.

Gas Guzzler, on 27 June 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

NARC has set me from 100% to 40%, less than half a mech remaining. Assault mech, not close enough to cover (close but not close enough).

PPCs + gauss rarely leaves half a mech, lets be real.

Again, not part of the LRMs/NARC OP crowd. Very situational weapons, specifically against disorganized pugs.

This right here is an attempt to imply that NARC is worse than the current meta others complain about. Which is laughable since the NARC is extremely situational with PPCs+Gauss works from affar, works up close, works with just you not a second mech hopefully carrying a weapons system that can take advanatage of your PPCs+Gauss, and doesn't have hard counters like AMS and ECM. That is what is poorly argued. You are trying to imply a system that would be laughed at if you brought it to a 12 man tournament match is more dangerous than the default Meta weapon system you would be laughed at for NOT bringing to a 12 man tournament.

[DAYLEET]

Mystere, on 27 June 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

Lights have always had their role. People just did not perform them because they were thinking in terms of c-bills and XP, not winning. It's the farmer mentality.

Id say it wasnt as critical to perform another role than run in pack and kill everything than now as support.

[Tetryon88]

Most matches the LRMs are manageable. 1 or 2 mechs might be boating them but without a dedicated Narc they do little to nothing. The real pain comes when you run into a dedicated LRM lance with narcs. The sheer amount of punishment they can put out in short order is rather absurd. They should really do something to let the players know when they get Narced. A giant flashing YOUR MECH IS SUFFERING THE EFFECTS OF NARC would probably help a lot of the issues.

Most maps provide enough cover if you're smart to prevent huge LRM threats. Of course if you get queued into Alpine Peaks against a boating lance you mine as well just power down and call it quits. Yes pretty much every Timberwolf is carrying at least 20 tubes of LRM. It's a staple part of the mech load out. It hasn't changed much since we already had catapults boating and stalkers carrying massive LRM payloads before it. Get used to humping cover and making them burn through their ammo reserves before you advance. even 500 missiles go incredibly fast if you know how to bait them out.

[Motroid]

AH Albatross, on 27 June 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

Some games...minimal LRMs and some massive, I have however built the Kit Fox destroyer escort, however I won't run it unless I'm in a premade lance of at least 3 of us because basically I can't go toe to toe with a spider. However from the missile standpoint we can basically stroll across the flat land... ECM, 3 AMS, 4 tons AMS, the Overspeed AMS module, the extended range AMS module. So far it's working well, just don't have alot of extra firepower to kick in.

You cannot combine AMS Overload Module and AMS Range Module on a KitFox. Basicly all the Range Modules are IS only...
But so far it's working well...lol.

[Pygar]

I just thought of this, another thing not getting mentioned much that falls into the "NARC'd but don't know it" category is UAV spotting- UAVs can have a profound effect on matches because they instantly make it so many targets that think they are out of LOS and under ECM cover suddenly lose most of the benefits of both.

Other than that, I'll just re-state what I said earlier...I don't really know if it's that LRMs are doing anything special that direct fire weapons can't here- I just think people here have a really funny habit of acting like if LRMs start doing good things then obviously the enemy must have been cheating somehow....I think it's fun, and missiles should be just as valid of a weapon in this game as direct fire weapons are.

Edited by Pygar, 27 June 2014 - 10:35 AM.

[Agent of Change]

Mystere, on 27 June 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

Lights have always had their role. People just did not perform them because they were thinking in terms of c-bills and XP, not winning. It's the farmer mentality.

While I generally agree with your sentiment you are technically incorrect. Until a reward for the behaviour is actively rewarded (XP/Cbills) the "role" that behaviour fits doesn't, strictly speaking in game design terms, exist. If it isn't reinforced it cannot be expected and therefore cannot be counted as a feature. Emergent behaviour yes, but planned role? no.

To say that lights had a role is to credit PGI with something they don't deserve. Set rewards reasonable for those behaviours and now you have reinforced an actual role. If the game makes only running heavy and assault mech profitable for advancement for most people, then most people will only run heavies and assault, and this is the piss poor design theory PGI has been putting forth thus far.

When they put forth a real effort to define the roles of the scout, and the harrass/flanker, and the skirmisher (all 'roles' that lights and mediums perform) then we can claim role warfare exists and is making the game better, until then we have some players just going above and beyond out the goodness of their heart.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 June 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Assault mech, not close enough to cover (close but not close enough).

Gas Guzzler, on 27 June 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

I was behind cover, but not LRM cover, IE they had no LoS, but someone popped with NARC when I poked my head over and a few hundred LRMs came flying over the aircraft in frozen city, which is not adequate LRM cover.

Sorry what?

Make up your mind?

Sounds like you are now changing your story. Why don't you just exit the thread.

Motroid, on 27 June 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

You cannot combine AMS Overload Module and AMS Range Module on a KitFox. Basicly all the Range Modules are IS only...
But so far it's working well...lol.

Who needs modules when you have 3 AMS though? And the Clan Range Extenders are coming, don't worry.

[Mystere]

Agent of Change, on 27 June 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

While I generally agree with your sentiment you are technically incorrect. Until a reward for the behaviour is actively rewarded (XP/Cbills) the "role" that behaviour fits doesn't, strictly speaking in game design terms, exist. If it isn't reinforced it cannot be expected and therefore cannot be counted as a feature. Emergent behaviour yes, but planned role? no.

To say that lights had a role is to credit PGI with something they don't deserve. Set rewards reasonable for those behaviours and now you have reinforced an actual role. If the game makes only running heavy and assault mech profitable for advancement for most people, then most people will only run heavies and assault, and this is the piss poor design theory PGI has been putting forth thus far.

When they put forth a real effort to define the roles of the scout, and the harrass/flanker, and the skirmisher (all 'roles' that lights and mediums perform) then we can claim role warfare exists and is making the game better, until then we have some players just going above and beyond out the goodness of their heart.

Call me a special snowflake if you must ( ), but I chose the mech I ride for the role I want to play. And the only incentive I need to play a role is winning, not c-bill or XP.

Edited by Mystere, 27 June 2014 - 11:09 AM.

[Ultimax]

Mystere, on 27 June 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

Hmm. So you want the game to balance ECM distribution.

Should the game also balance by LRM, SRM, SSRM, AC20, CUltra-AC20, Gauss, PPC, ERPPC, CERPPC, and by all other weapons, modules, and whatever else that exists in the game?

Out of all the things you listed in that post, only two of them are capable of being force multipliers.

LRMs through Indirect Fire (or rather the actual shared lock mechanics this piggy backs is the real force multiplier) & ECM


So while you don't need to balance on a weapon to weapon basis, striving for some semblance of balance for force multipliers is not unreasonable - especially ECM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mercules, on 27 June 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

My view is that if you slip up ALL WEAPONS can really screw you. If you make a mistake your opponent can and will kill you. NARC has nothing to do with it. it is more effective on Assaults that lumber across the batlefield and less on Lights who often carry counters or can get to safety in time. On the other hand an AC20 can annoy and threaten an Assault and cripple a Light.


This right here is an attempt to imply that NARC is worse than the current meta others complain about. Which is laughable since the NARC is extremely situational with PPCs+Gauss works from affar, works up close, works with just you not a second mech hopefully carrying a weapons system that can take advanatage of your PPCs+Gauss, and doesn't have hard counters like AMS and ECM. That is what is poorly argued. You are trying to imply a system that would be laughed at if you brought it to a 12 man tournament match is more dangerous than the default Meta weapon system you would be laughed at for NOT bringing to a 12 man tournament.

Yes all weapons, but this thread is about NARC/LRMs, I never said they were too powerful.

You really need to read the post I was responding to in order to get context. This is what I was replying too:

PanchoTortilla, on 27 June 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

Re: aiming

If I can hit you with a slow moving Narc pod, hitting you with PPCs + a gauss rifle would be trivial. The only difference is the 'OP' Narc does no damage and is a nuisance. The heavy weaponry will leave you with half a mech.

I was responding to the NARC is just a nuisance where PPCs + a gauss rifle leave with half a mech, which I disagree with. Getting NARCed sucks. Even if you have cover, LRMs can still get over cover as not all cover is good enough , it can still ruin your game even if you didn't really make a mistake, but its not OP because of how situational it is. I don't get why that is hard to understand. Are you arguing that getting NARCed doesn't suck? Because I disagree, it does suck, and it isn't always avoidable.

Once again, I'll repeat again so I don't incur the wrath of LRM Boaters: LRMs/NARCs are not OP and do not need a nerf.