104 replies to this topic

[Warma]

mogs01gt, on 02 July 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

Mech load outs are not game mechanics. Maybe clarify what you mean by mechanics? Balancing trumps all in FPS MMO games. If something isnt balanced, it has to be fixed. Making JJ's half weight will vastly help the Summoner.

Do you realize, that you don't have to do this kind of rule-defying fixes if you just give it the possibility to use Endo. Then it will be no worse than any other mech with a comparable setup.

[mogs01gt]

Warma, on 02 July 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

Do you realize, that you don't have to do this kind of rule-defying fixes if you just give it the possibility to use Endo. Then it will be no worse than any other mech with a comparable setup.

Wouldnt Endo take up crit space that the Summoner needs for weapon hard points in the STs?

Bishop Steiner, on 02 July 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

they use a set of core rules, mechanics whatever you prefer to call them, to lay out the basics for how all mech designs are introduced, and the rules they follow. There are ways to fix it without breaking that, even if some people seem to fixate on only one or two options.No need to go nuclear when the fixes can bee done without changing existing features, and setting potentially problematic precedents. Sorry you disagree, but as you said, you could care less about the basic foundation of the game, whereas I desire to find the answers that don't take it any further away from the actual IP than absolutely necessary.
I also prefer to explore options that there is SOME chance of seeing implemented, and I can 99.9% promise you, they will never add half weight JJs.

I agree they wont change the weight on JJ's. It would be nice though, imagine how helpful that would be to QD's or 55 ton mediums!!!

My issue is if they follow these set "rules" and it doenst allow for proper balancing, then the "rules" need to change.

Edited by mogs01gt, 02 July 2014 - 05:32 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Warma, on 02 July 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

Do you realize, that you don't have to do this kind of rule-defying fixes if you just give it the possibility to use Endo. Then it will be no worse than any other mech with a comparable setup.

while still not desired, it would indeed be far better than half weight JJs

[Bulletsponge0]

Am I the only one that likes piloting my Summoners?? And I do fairly well in them too....but we'll wait and see of that holds up once the sample size increases....

[Bishop Steiner]

mogs01gt, on 02 July 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

Wouldnt Endo take up crit space that the Summoner needs for weapon hard points in the STs?


I agree they wont change the weight on JJ's. It would be nice though, imagine how helpful that would be to QD's or 55 ton mediums!!!

My issue is if they follow these set "rules" and it doenst allow for proper balancing, then the "rules" need to change.

How can it run out of crits, when the issues are it's extreme lack of free tonnage and hardpoints anyhow? T Wolf has endo without this issue...Clan Endo is 7 crits, not 14.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 July 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

No, it's actually not.

Summoner, designed and engineered to jump. Would have been designed around having control surfaces, shock absorbers, etc specifically for the mission. Jump bottles directly tied to the fusion reactor, and having reinforced couplings.

Timber Wolf having not been designed for Jumping, would have none of those, and so while not as crude as your analogy, yes, would be less efficient at it than something engineered for the purpose from the start. It's why Specialized units still always perform their specialized role better than "multi-role" units do.

You resistance to the idea has been duly noted for quite some time, but it certainly doesn't make it wrong.

You have chosen to apply this piece of logic to one area of the game.

The entire game has mechs that do not have most of their gear engineered for their purpose. All of it is "strap on" gear.

So why do we suspend that logic for all of those instances?



On top of that, my Timberwolf S did in fact come with Jump Jets, and my Summoner would still be undergunned.


To be honest, I feel like the threads you've created on this are more focused on nerfing the Timberwolf than actually improving the Summoner. (even when you say they aren't)

Your first post outlined how the Summoner compares to the Griffin.

That is a tonnage issue, not a Jump Jets issue.

Quote

One should not be surprised that the Griffin is more mobile, but what is troubling is that in the "traditional" areas of Heavy Mech advantages, the Summoner really only delivers on paper, as inferior Hit Boxes and the largely DoT nature of Clan Weaponry largely negate the numeric advantage of either category. In general, the lower heat ballistics and greater quantity of missiles give the Summoner the slightest of edges, but in particular, it's lack of ability to mount a quantity of smaller Energy weapons AND Missiles simultaneously, makes that a much smaller margin than there should be.

Please explain how having more efficient jump jets solves the problem that you actually outlined in your post.


The solutions myself and others have put forward address this disparity directly by giving the Summoner more tonnage to work with.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 July 2014 - 05:36 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bulletsponge0, on 02 July 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

Am I the only one that likes piloting my Summoners?? And I do fairly well in them too....but we'll wait and see of that holds up once the sample size increases....

You can enjoy, and do decent in something, that is still far from what it could be. I love my summoner, but the fact is, it is inferior to the Twolf in every way, except, arguably, hitboxes. (Agility is realistically so close, that in actual combat, it's a non factor, currently.... and this is with mastered Summoners)

[Bobby Blast]

Because of these issues with clan mechs I have avoided 3 in particular because of blatant flaws in design.

Adder- The Kitfox is superior in every way. The adder literally brings nothing to the table.

Summoner- Terrible Hardpoints, I'll play my elited Griffin, thanks.

Direwolf- CT hitbox makes this "terror" a free kill to any mech who can escape it's 30° firing arc.

For all the whines 3 of the 8 clan chassis are practically a no brainer to stay away from playing.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 02 July 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

You have chosen to apply this piece of logic to one area of the game.

The entire game has mechs that do not have most of their gear engineered for their purpose. All of it is "strap on" gear.

So why do we suspend that logic for all of those instances?



On top of that, my Timberwolf S did in fact come with Jump Jets, and my Summoner would still be undergunned.


To be honest, I feel like the threads you've created on this are more focused on nerfing the Timberwolf than actually improving the Summoner.

Your first post outlined how the Summoner compares to the Griffin. That is a tonnage issue, not a "super efficient" Jump Jets issue.



[/size]


Please explain how having more efficient jump jets solves the problem that you actually outlined in your post.

cool so better to apply no logic and create totally needless new scenarios and loopholes and such, than to use logic, even incrementally,.

Duly noted.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 July 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

cool so better to apply no logic and create totally needless new scenarios and loopholes and such, than to use logic, even incrementally,.

Duly noted.

Do you want to actually have a debate?

Because every time I directly question your proposal and it's complete lack of solving the issue you yourself pointed out - you deflect, and basically avoid addressing it.

[Bulletsponge0]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 July 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

You can enjoy, and do decent in something, that is still far from what it could be. I love my summoner, but the fact is, it is inferior to the Twolf in every way, except, arguably, hitboxes. (Agility is realistically so close, that in actual combat, it's a non factor, currently.... and this is with mastered Summoners)

well, if my derpy a** can do well in it, it can't be all that bad of a mech

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 02 July 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

You have chosen to apply this piece of logic to one area of the game.

The entire game has mechs that do not have most of their gear engineered for their purpose. All of it is "strap on" gear.

So why do we suspend that logic for all of those instances?



On top of that, my Timberwolf S did in fact come with Jump Jets, and my Summoner would still be undergunned.


To be honest, I feel like the threads you've created on this are more focused on nerfing the Timberwolf than actually improving the Summoner. (even when you say they aren't)

Your first post outlined how the Summoner compares to the Griffin.

That is a tonnage issue, not a Jump Jets issue.



[/size]


Please explain how having more efficient jump jets solves the problem that you actually outlined in your post.


The solutions myself and others have put forward address this disparity directly by giving the Summoner more tonnage to work with.

Very simple. It allows it to be the mor enimble Heavy Mech. Just as the pre-agility Nerf Victor was able to hold it's own against any Assault, despite giving up as much as 20 tons in weapons and armor, and just as, in good hands, the Griffin itself, is only a step behind the ShadowHawk, when just looking at it's hardpoints, it should be blatantly inferior.

The point of the comparo, is essentially the Summoner has all the relative weaknesses of a Medium, but none of the relative advantages, in many ways like the how the current VTR is really nowhere near the mech it was, outside of the Poptart role.

Anyhow, out of time for the morning, have IRL to get to, be sure to rejoin this charming convo, later.

[mogs01gt]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 July 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

How can it run out of crits, when the issues are it's extreme lack of free tonnage and hardpoints anyhow? T Wolf has endo without this issue...Clan Endo is 7 crits, not 14.

Didnt realize they were 7.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 02 July 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

Do you want to actually have a debate?

Because every time I directly question your proposal and it's complete lack of solving the issue you yourself pointed out - you deflect, and basically avoid addressing it.

My debate, and points have been made all over this, and other posts. Just because you don't like them, is no reason for me to continue rehashing them, every 3rd post, just for you. Go read the OP. And my other Summoner posts. Everything you need is there.

[SgtMagor]

Summoner with out a doubt imho should be considered one of the Clans greatest heavy mechs, agility, and mobility that no mech can match, taller tan most mechs on the battle, when you seen this it should be assault huge, not looking like a med(but that's another story). I can see maybe being out gunned by other mechs, or even lighter chaissis. but to be out done in its agility, and mobility by any other mech is unacceptable.

[Bishop Steiner]

Vassago Rain, on 02 July 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

But if that was the case, why do you keep making threads about how inferior the thor is?

because unlike you I don't live in a world of black and white extremes. Never said the Summoner was perfect. Keep trying though Vass.

SgtMagor, on 02 July 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

Summoner with out a doubt imho should be considered one of the Clans greatest heavy mechs, agility, and mobility that no mech can match, taller tan most mechs on the battle, when you seen this it should be assault huge, not looking like a med(but that's another story). I can see maybe being out gunned by other mechs, or even lighter chaissis. but to be out done in its agility, and mobility by any other mech is unacceptable.

someone who gets the point.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 July 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

My debate, and points have been made all over this, and other posts. Just because you don't like them, is no reason for me to continue rehashing them, every 3rd post, just for you. Go read the OP. And my other Summoner posts. Everything you need is there.

You posted your follow up post to my post, while I was typing that.

I'll respond to the latter post when I have time.

[Vassago Rain]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 July 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

How can it run out of crits, when the issues are it's extreme lack of free tonnage and hardpoints anyhow? T Wolf has endo without this issue...Clan Endo is 7 crits, not 14.

Because the crits need to be assigned to fit with the stock builds.

All thors have 2 armor crits in the sides. If you were to just add endo to it, you'd have to account for the 7 new crits, and some items will not fit in some body parts. Madkitty can't EVER field a UAC20 in the side because it doesn't have enough room.

[Ultimax]

SgtMagor, on 02 July 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

Summoner with out a doubt imho should be considered one of the Clans greatest heavy mechs, agility, and mobility that no mech can match, taller tan most mechs on the battle, when you seen this it should be assault huge, not looking like a med(but that's another story). I can see maybe being out gunned by other mechs, or even lighter chaissis. but to be out done in its agility, and mobility by any other mech is unacceptable.

From Sarna:

"The Summoner's balanced mix of speed, mobility, armor, and firepower make it a highly effective and reliable OmniMech"

I see balanced, I see mix of speed, mobility, armor and firepower. I see effective and reliable.

I don't see "better agility and mobility than any other mech"



So maybe you are just projecting what you want this mech to be?

Because it is a mech that has speed (high for a heavy), has mobility (high for a heavy), has armor (standard for 70 tons) - but actually lacks solid firepower (sub-par vs. heavies, has medium mech firepower).

[C E Dwyer]

Roadkill, on 27 June 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

When I first saw the Summoner's actual hardpoints in game, my reaction was:


3 hardpoints? WTF? So I ignored it. Garbage Mech.

Then as I was playing around with my other Clan Mechs, I noticed the quirks attached to various omnipods. Aha! Surely the Summoner has a crap-ton of quirks to balance out those ridiculously lousy hardpoints, right?

No?

WTF double-take?

I'd be fine with the Summoner if its crappy omnipods (read: most of them) had sufficient quirks to make it viable. But they don't, so it's really not.

So its like the light cruisers in avalon hills federation space game, about the only one the Klingons fleets ships were superior to all the rest ton for ton were superior and the best the klingons could hope for was a draw. (actually destroying the LC's in it made the federation more powerful point for point, a terrible game where balance and fun came a low second to the Federation i.e. America must win).

Now there was a political board game maker par excellence lol