24 replies to this topic

[Jack Spade Ward]

My proposal is this, i think that clan dhs should, actually, give a 2.0 heat eficiency!

And why do i say this? Because i feel that clan mechs, comparing to the IS mechs, are too nerfed.
Alot of DPS, but too greater spread damage.

So, to buff a litle so it can actually be good enough, and be toe to toe to IS mechs, i wouldn change weapons, just put the cdhs as they should, 2x the heat eficiency

Edited by Spadejack, 30 June 2014 - 09:44 PM.

[FupDup]

Both factions could probably use 2.0 truedubs rather than 1.4 poordubs.

[Kmieciu]

Only if the IS DHS are back at 2.0

[Wintersdark]

You realise that at 15-17 DHS, we're actually getting roughly 2.0 per heat sink once efficiencies are counted, right?

We basically already have this.

As to Clans, while I don't think they are OP, nor do I think they need a buff. Particularly not one of that magnitude. After all, clan she being 2 slots allows many more to be carried.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I don't support just a straight upgrade to DHS. TTK is too low as is.

How about this:

All DHS are TruDubs™ for heat dissipation. Full 2.0 dissipation for all Clan and IS DHS. However, DHS no longer increases heat capacity per heatsink, but SHS retains this capability. All mechs have a base heat capacity of 40.

This way, DHS is a better option for brawlers and sustained fire support, and SHS is better for high alpha/burst builds.

[Firewuff]

True dhs are a nightmare. You think pinpoint high alpha builds are bad now.... Try a nova with all the weapons being able to alpha every few seconds.... They tried 2.0 during the beta and it was just stupid.

[Wintersdark]

I repeat, we already have truedubs; we just need our pilot skills.

After pilot skills are applied, between 15 and 17DHS we're effectively getting ~2.0 per sink.

[Nova Latios Storm]

Yes please the nova overheats so much!

[reaverOfCheesecake]

I voted no... i have clan mechs and i feel that the heat management balance is good enough to be fair to the IS mechs.

[Wolfways]

Firewuff, on 01 July 2014 - 11:54 PM, said:

True dhs are a nightmare. You think pinpoint high alpha builds are bad now.... Try a nova with all the weapons being able to alpha every few seconds.... They tried 2.0 during the beta and it was just stupid.

PGI said they tried 2.0 DHS and felt they were too powerful. The players never got to try them.

"Ask the Devs 27. Dec 04 2012

Q: Can we please at least try DHS at 2.0? It doesn't seem like much of a boost to lights who usually benefit mostly from the engine heat sinks, but heavies and assaults that use big energy weapons need the boost. [Wolfways]
A: No. Prior to releasing the Dual Heatsink upgrade the forums were abuzz with whether or not they would be mandatory on all Mechs. With the numbers we've chosen, they aren't, so I'd say we answered those questions well. [Garth]"

There you go. DHS are not mandatory

[MrBlonde42]

No, the clans heat sinks are already smaller, they don't need to be more efficient as well. The Dual PPC, Twin Gauss Dire wolves would just rampage more so than they do now. Yes, the clans are supposed to wreck the IS, but for game play wise, they need to be toned down to be better, yet not dominating the IS. I think the balance is almost perfect.

Edited by MrBlonde42, 09 July 2014 - 10:56 PM.

[Koniving]

Spadejack, on 30 June 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:

My proposal is this, i think that clan dhs should, actually, give a 2.0 heat eficiency!

And why do i say this? Because i feel that clan mechs, comparing to the IS mechs, are too nerfed.
Alot of DPS, but too greater spread damage.

So, to buff a litle so it can actually be good enough, and be toe to toe to IS mechs, i wouldn change weapons, just put the cdhs as they should, 2x the heat eficiency

Clan ER Large Laser tabletop: 10 damage. 200 meters less than MWO.
Clan ER Large laser MWO: 11.25 damage.
Clan LPL tabletop: 10 damage.
Clan LPL MWO: 11.8 damage.
Clan UACs, all, tabletop: Jam once, PERMANENTLY JAMMED.
Clan UACs, all, MWO: Jam for 3 seconds or less.

Kitfox C right arm tabletop: ECM, 2 AMS.
Kitfox C right arm MWO: ECM, 3 AMS.

Dire Wolf: Always 48 kph. MWO: 53.5 kph after speed tweak.

I could list a lot of things here...

It'd take me about 3 hours to put all the buffs Clans got down.

[Koniving]

Though, I do sincerely think that ALL mechs should get 2.0 true DHS, and the threshold should be 30. With pilot skill trees removed.

Right now Inner Sphere mechs top out at 88.56 threshold, 5.04/sec cooling.
Clan mechs top out at 98.64 threshold, 6.0/sec cooling.

Now here's a fun fact: In TT, a Dire Wolf Prime stock has 22 DHS. That's 4.4/sec cooling, 30 threshold.
In MWO it has 22 DHS, that's 4.23/sec cooling, 80.16 threshold.

TT Dire Wolf Prime fires all weapons across TEN SECONDs, exactly once.
Explodes.
Long.

Spoiler

--------------------
Movement Phase
--------------------
The arena is relatively small.
The King Crab walks forward 30 meters with caution.
The Dire Wolf charges at full speed.
---------------------

Weapon Attack Phase
-------------------
Weapons fire for King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving)
PPC at Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred); needs 6, rolls 7 : hits CT
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) takes 10 damage to CT.
37 Armor remaining.


PPC at Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred); needs 6, rolls 7 : hits RA
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) takes 10 damage to RA.
24 Armor remaining.


LB 10-X AC at Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred); needs 6, rolls 8 : hits RT
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) takes 10 damage to RT.
22 Armor remaining.


LB 10-X AC at Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred); needs 6, rolls 7 : hits LT
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) takes 10 damage to LT.
22 Armor remaining.


Weapons fire for Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred)
ER Large Laser at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 2 : misses


ER Large Laser at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 3 : misses


Medium Pulse Laser at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 3, rolls 8 : - Direct Blow - hits LA
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 8 damage to LA.
26 Armor remaining.


Medium Pulse Laser at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 3, rolls 8 : - Direct Blow - hits CT
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 8 damage to CT.
38 Armor remaining.


Ultra AC/5 at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 7 :
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 5 damage to RA.
29 Armor remaining.
fires a second burst in ultra mode.
Ultra AC/5 at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 7 :
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 5 damage to LL.
36 Armor remaining.


ER Large Laser at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 2 : misses


ER Large Laser at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 3 : misses


Medium Pulse Laser at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 3, rolls 11 : - Direct Blow - hits LT
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 9 damage to LT.
23 Armor remaining.


Medium Pulse Laser at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 3, rolls 4 : hits CT
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 7 damage to CT.
31 Armor remaining.


Ultra AC/5 at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 8 : - Direct Blow -
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 6 damage to RA.
23 Armor remaining.
fires a second burst in ultra mode.
Ultra AC/5 at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 5 : - Glancing Blow -
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 2 damage to LA.
24 Armor remaining.


LRM 10 at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 8 : - Direct Blow - 6 missile(s) hit (w/ +2 bonus).

King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 5 damage to LA.
19 Armor remaining.

King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 1 damage to CT.
30 Armor remaining.




Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (20+ damage).
The base target is 4 [4 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (4 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (20+ damage)); needs 5, rolls 7 : succeeds.

King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (20+ damage).
The base target is 5 [5 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (5 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (20+ damage)); needs 6, rolls 9 : succeeds.

Heat Phase
-------------------
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) gains 73 heat, sinks 44 heat and is now at 29 heat.
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) needs a 5+ to avoid shutdown, rolls 9 : avoids successfully!
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) needs a 8+ to avoid ammo explosion, rolls 5 : fails to avoid explosion.
*** LRM 10 Ammo EXPLODES! 110 DAMAGE! ***
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) takes 110 damage to LT.
SECTION DESTROYED,
LIMB BLOWN OFF Left Arm blown off.
remaining 89 damage prevented by CASE.
Critical hit on LT. Roll is 6; no effect.

Pilot of Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) "Bryan Otsuka" takes 2 damage.
Pilot of Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) "Bryan Otsuka" needs a 3 to stay conscious. Rolls 6 : successful!

Pilot of Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) "Bryan Otsuka" needs a 5 to stay conscious. Rolls 7 : successful!

Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime needs a 6+ for coolant failure, rolls 8 : fails.
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime's coolant is now less effective.
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) gains 25 heat, sinks 20 heat and is now at 5 heat.
King Crab KGC-010 needs a 10+ for coolant failure, rolls 5 : avoids successfully!

Short.

Spoiler

Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) gains 73 heat, sinks 44 heat and is now at 29 heat.
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) needs a 5+ to avoid shutdown, rolls 9 : avoids successfully!
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) needs a 8+ to avoid ammo explosion, rolls 5 : fails to avoid explosion.
*** LRM 10 Ammo EXPLODES! 110 DAMAGE! ***
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) takes 110 damage to LT.
SECTION DESTROYED,
LIMB BLOWN OFF Left Arm blown off.
remaining 89 damage prevented by CASE.
Critical hit on LT. Roll is 6; no effect.

Pilot of Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) "Bryan Otsuka" takes 2 damage.
Pilot of Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) "Bryan Otsuka" needs a 3 to stay conscious. Rolls 6 : successful!

Pilot of Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) "Bryan Otsuka" needs a 5 to stay conscious. Rolls 7 : successful!

Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime needs a 6+ for coolant failure, rolls 8 : fails.
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime's coolant is now less effective.
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) gains 25 heat, sinks 20 heat and is now at 5 heat.
King Crab KGC-010 needs a 10+ for coolant failure, rolls 5 : avoids successfully!

MWO Dire Wolf Prime fires all weapons exactly once, WITHOUT SKILL TREE (so inferior cooling and threshold to what's mentioned), with GHOST HEAT... Shuts off. Nothing happens. Hits exactly 100% heat.

You think they're nerfed? They're freaking buffed beyond belief. But so is the IS.

[Koniving]

I should also note: 15 DHS should be 3/sec cooling + 30 threshold.
In MWO it's 3.1/sec cooling, 68.34 threshold after pilot skill tree.

You're getting BETTER than double heatsinks already; in fact with true doubles at any value under 19 DHS, you will always have SUPERIOR cooling... this is because engine DHS are true 2.0 DHS and all heatsinks get + 15% cooling and + 20% threshold.
Enjoy. Here's the heat sim. Btw this game's heat system is soooooo screwed up.

(Also don't forget how much COLDER all long range Clan lasers are compared to what they are supposed to be. Clan ER LL 8.5 heat MWO. In TT? 12 heat for LESS damage.)

[Tim East]

The problem with implementing the 30 heat hard-cap is that many weapons front-load their heat output. So, if you fire an ERPPC, you get 15 heat, which leads to a bunch of different checks and penalties iirc, since your heat sinking value is per 10 seconds. That is to say, if you sink 20 heat per turn, you're effectively sinking 2/second, if you break it down into real time. but that weapon is going to give you 15 heat any time you use it. This probably wouldn't be a terrible place to argue for split ACs like the clans get, and lower damage/heat all around, since the heat and damage generated by weapons in TT is supposed to be TOTAL generated in 10 seconds of continuous fire or whatever. You'd have to either break up the damage and heat into smaller less-than-10 second portions, or lower ROF a bunch. Either way, you'd probably want to scale back armor alongside those factors. It'd basically take a total rebalance of EVERYTHING.

I suppose what you could do is set the 30 heat hard cap, and then have penalties apply after ten seconds, using the lowest heat value reached over the last 10 second period. Like, you fire one of the aforementioned ERPPCs, get 15 heat, and wait for 2 seconds, sinking 4 heat. Then you fire your other ERPPC (assuming you have two, since there are often paired) generating another 15 heat, and setting your number to 26. You let that sink for a little bit, say, 5 seconds, but a light rolls up on your flank, and you end up shooting a pair of small pulse lasers at it, giving you a total of 26-10+4, or 20 heat. You spend the remaining 3 seconds before it starts counting cooling, and end up with 14 heat, which means that the low value for that time period was 11, at second 2. So, for two seconds, you suck a 21 kph movement penalty and some aiming sluggishness, then make a check or shut down (since the next newest low value is 14) retain the movement penalty, and take a slightly worse accuracy penalty, for a second. Then, assuming that you don't generate more heat, the penalties gradually go away over the course of 5 seconds, since the first couple of heat points don't penalize you.

The downsides to such a system include its complexity and the temporal disconnect between cause and effect, since you won't see the effects of heat unless you keep it up for a while. That is to say, alpha striking up to (and indeed beyond) 30 heat might destroy your mech, and WILL shut it down, but it won't kick in for up to 10 seconds, which gives you time to scramble for cover or even keep shooting, since you're probably dead anyway if you carry ammo at all, or if they implement pilot health, or if you didn't kill whatever you were shooting at.

It'd be a slower game. Less action, more tactics. Completely different.

/edit: It has occurred to me that at least with this system you SHOULD have plenty of time to slap the override shutdown button, since the computer would be able to warn you well in advance of any shutdown that would occur. I know that is something people have been wanting.

Edited by Tim East, 10 July 2014 - 12:54 PM.

[Gladewolf]

while i'd love to see improvements to the heat system in general, they should be the same for both inner sphere and clan tech, let's not invent advantages the clans did not have to make things worse

[Kmieciu]

Tim East, on 10 July 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

The problem with implementing the 30 heat hard-cap is that many weapons front-load their heat output.

Yes. Those are the weapons that front load the damage, as well. The whole point of a low heat cap is to prevent people from front-loading to much damage. Front loading damage is the reason this game is about long range poptarting, hill-humping and LRM spam.

I would even leave pilot skills as they are now. 33 heat cap with basics, 36 heat cap with elite. With such a low heat cap, we would not need any ghost heat. For example: firing 3xPPC would bring you to over 83% heat in a mastered mech. Right now, despite ghost heat, you can put 3xPPC on a Stalker and group fire will bring you only to 57%.

Edited by Kmieciu, 11 July 2014 - 01:28 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

With the exception of being smaller (fewer crits) they should function the same as IS DHS. Unless you want all DHS to be at 2.0, then you're on to something....

[Tim East]

Kmieciu, on 11 July 2014 - 01:24 AM, said:

Yes. Those are the weapons that front load the damage, as well. The whole point of a low heat cap is to prevent people from front-loading to much damage. Front loading damage is the reason this game is about long range poptarting, hill-humping and LRM spam.

I do believe I mentioned this in passing.

Tim East, on 10 July 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

The problem with implementing the 30 heat hard-cap is that many weapons front-load their heat output. So, if you fire an ERPPC, you get 15 heat, which leads to a bunch of different checks and penalties iirc, since your heat sinking value is per 10 seconds. That is to say, if you sink 20 heat per turn, you're effectively sinking 2/second, if you break it down into real time. but that weapon is going to give you 15 heat any time you use it. This probably wouldn't be a terrible place to argue for split ACs like the clans get, and lower damage/heat all around, since the heat and damage generated by weapons in TT is supposed to be TOTAL generated in 10 seconds of continuous fire or whatever. You'd have to either break up the damage and heat into smaller less-than-10 second portions, or lower ROF a bunch. Either way, you'd probably want to scale back armor alongside those factors. It'd basically take a total rebalance of EVERYTHING.

Yup, there it was. Bolded for convenience. Underlined the key point.

Not really the purpose of the thread, but FLD is kind of awful. I really love how they've worked the clans with the exception of the c-gauss, which frankly isn't going to get much truer to TT except via a longer cooldown, since it was the hyper assault gauss that had multifire canonically. That means that unlike ACs where it was assumed that multiple rounds were being fired per turn, the gauss actually is supposed to be FLD. Don't miss though. I'd kind of like to see SRMs like a firehose too, instead of one big cloud of missiles. You know, like they did the clan LRMs. I dunno, I guess I'm just used to the idea of firing weapons in sequence instead of simultaneously.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

The entire heat system ultimately needs a rework. cDHS should not magically be better than standard DHS.