114 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Ultimatum X, on 01 July 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

The target moves. You move. Something steps between you and the target.

Lasers not delivering their entire payload instantly are prone to damage loss and therefore missing.

As a recoil-less weapon, they lose out on that advantage due to this games cannons not having any recoil.

I don't want artificially created misses, but perfect convergence of multiple weapon systems and 0 recoil are clearly problematic with regards to TTK.


Addressing those two factors is better than nerfing the RoF on Gauss Rifles and PPCs because this is not CoD and those are not "sniper" weapons. Armlock is problematic, and exasperates the issue.

I am confused, you also see that TTK is a problem, but do not want to touch the RoF on weapons that are effective at all ranges..

This is not CoD, but that does not mean that a balancing factor of long range weapons vs short range weapons is Rate of Fire.

[FupDup]

Want to change the pinpoint meta? Here you go: http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

[Livewyr]

LordKnightFandragon, on 01 July 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

LOL, you mention a Fully automatic sniper rifle? You dont look to CoD, no...you look to battlefield bad company 2, they literally have EXACTLY that.....

Its the Sniper's VSS Vintorez...its a pin point accurate, low drag, sniper rifle machinegun...and yes, its absurdly OP lol.

Never played it, obviously.. lol

[Mister Blastman]

YueFei, on 01 July 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

At point-blank range, SRMs should be a better investment per tons/crits/slots compared to any other weapon in the game.

Damn right. And they aren't, currently. They aren't even as good as they were post-nerf a year ago. They're... 43% less effective than then, after they were nerfed due to some "mysterious" issue that nobody has been able to figure out.

SRMs are a gimped system. The Buckton fix just makes them register. But, sadly, they suffer still.

I prefer the closed-beta pattern of tight spread at close range -> wider spread at mid -> tight spread near the outer limits of their range. They were awesome back then and the spread pattern was one of the reasons why. I, to this day, can't understand why the put this piece of crap spread pattern in for them when they had it perfect before.

Damage should be increased to at least 2.5 per missile--3.0 would be even better. I'd have a MWO party if they pushed them up to 3.0.

Truth be told, I don't give a darn if they are made ultra-powerful. If that's what it takes to make people no longer scared to brawl, then so be it. Make it so.

[Ultimax]

Livewyr, on 01 July 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

I am confused, you also see that TTK is a problem, but do not want to touch the RoF on weapons that are effective at all ranges..

This is not CoD, but that does not mean that a balancing factor of long range weapons vs short range weapons is Rate of Fire.

I don't think TTK is due to RoF of those weapons.

I think TTK is an issue due to perfect convergence of FLD weapons.

I'm OK with FLD, but not perfect convergence.

I think your label of "long range" weapons is a misnomer - they do have long range, but that does not mean they are sniper weapons nor should they be relegated solely to a sniper weapon role - as clearly not all heavy/assault mechs meant to mount these are designed for "sniper" roles.

Gauss already has a charge up mechanic.

PPCs run hot, have a min range. cER PPCs run exceptionally hot.


cUACs pretty much flipped this concept on its head with burst fire - their damage is high but they don't seem to have dramatically lowered TTK on a single weapon basis. So it doesn't seem to be RoF or range that is the standout issue.


You can do 40 points of damage in about a second with 2x UAC 10s, but we don't really see anyone complaining about this because the damage is spread and not pinpoint. High RoF, good range, and yet the cUAC 10 isn't really an issue.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Livewyr, on 01 July 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

Never played it, obviously.. lol

Im just giving you an example where one is actually in a game...so your line in the post really isnt far off haha.

Mister Blastman, on 01 July 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Damn right. And they aren't, currently. They aren't even as good as they were post-nerf a year ago. They're... 43% less effective than then, after they were nerfed due to some "mysterious" issue that nobody has been able to figure out.

SRMs are a gimped system. The Buckton fix just makes them register. But, sadly, they suffer still.

I prefer the closed-beta pattern of tight spread at close range -> wider spread at mid -> tight spread near the outer limits of their range. They were awesome back then and the spread pattern was one of the reasons why. I, to this day, can't understand why the put this piece of crap spread pattern in for them when they had it perfect before.

Damage should be increased to at least 2.5 per missile--3.0 would be even better. I'd have a MWO party if they pushed them up to 3.0.

Truth be told, I don't give a darn if they are made ultra-powerful. If that's what it takes to make people no longer scared to brawl, then so be it. Make it so.

SRMs suck because even with Artemis they still spread more then a veteran prostitutes legs.....Only from kissing range can you land that 12 dmg in one general area, otherwise they spread all over. Or you boat like 4 launchers and hope that half the missiles land where you want them. Plus they have the speed of a legged direwolf....so they are to be used on lights? Good luck with that....I can never hit more then 1 or 2 on a Light, their speed plus the SRM speed plus the SRM spread+games **** performance=wtf miss...

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 01 July 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

stuff

For the sake of civility, I won't comment at length on this, as we both know each other's divergent viewpoint.

But I am glad you posted the whole "I play to win" part, since I was playing against your mech a few days ago (alt account), and admiring it's pure MEta build. Personally, I would have thought with your stance against it, you would feel a little...dirty? Playing a MetaTart.

Still, after the last 2 weeks, I hope you don't get your wish about ACs (sadly, I believe you will), as I just see the Clan /IS balance falling flat on it's face.

What will be will be, kay syrah, syrah.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 01 July 2014 - 11:40 AM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

LordKnightFandragon, on 01 July 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Im just giving you an example where one is actually in a game...so your line in the post really isnt far off haha.




SRMs suck because even with Artemis they still spread more then a veteran prostitutes legs.....Only from kissing range can you land that 12 dmg in one general area, otherwise they spread all over. Or you boat like 4 launchers and hope that half the missiles land where you want them. Plus they have the speed of a legged direwolf....so they are to be used on lights? Good luck with that....I can never hit more then 1 or 2 on a Light, their speed plus the SRM speed plus the SRM spread+games **** performance=wtf miss...

If your missing with srm6 launchers you just need more practice. I have no problem hitting lights with them. In fact, now that they register, any light that comes close to my brawling mechs are taken out pretty quick.

I agree that even though srm6's work now as intended, its still not enough damage to use it over the long range pinpoint weapons in high elo. They need thier damage buffed to 2.75 or 3.0, then we might see top elo brawls.

[Alexandrix]

PGI obviously isn't interested in exploring a "cone of fire" type system.So we might as well forget that.What they can do tho,is make a few changes to stats and mechanics that already exist in game.

-Increase SRM speed
-Decrease SRM recycle
-Slightly decrease SRM heat
-Increase SRM damage to 2.75~3
-Fix the spread so that it isn't stupid at close range (firing in a cone like pattern similar to LBX would prob be best i think)

-Increase PPC/gauss recycle time to at least 5 seconds each,maybe 6

-Add reticle shake to the fall of the jump,same as the rise.
*(just enough to throw off super long range shots,a little shake won't really affect "jump brawlers" as they are probably close enough to land the shot anyways)*

All of these changes could be done in one patch,and the game would change over night.Yes,PP FLD would still be strong,but at least the weapons wouldn't still be so outclassed at their own optimal operating range.

As an added bonus,I don't think any of these changes poop on any other play styles the way PGI's "beating around the bush" changes tend to.

Make it so!

Edited by Alexandrix, 01 July 2014 - 12:01 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Alexandrix, on 01 July 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

PGI obviously isn't interested in exploring a "cone of fire" type system.So we might as well forget that.What they can do tho,is make a few changes to stats and mechanics that already exist in game.

-Increase SRM speed
-Decrease SRM recycle
-Slightly decrease SRM heat
-Increase SRM damage to 2.75~3
-Fix the spread so that it isn't stupid at close range (firing in a cone like pattern similar to LBX would prob be best i think)

-Increase PPC/gauss recycle time to at least 5 seconds each,maybe 6

I'm in favour of having Gauss and PPCs having different cooldowns, perhaps 5 and 6. Gauss shorter for the extra tonnage?

3 damage SRMs are the correct value: http://www.sarna.net...d-Fire_Missiles

Although I wouldn't be against a smaller damage buff and also increasing the travel speed as a result. More room for propellant or payload when you remove the guidance.

Recycle is probably good if we do the above adjustment, and also increase the long range weapon cooldown.

[DeathlyEyes]

I would like to see laser duration be reduced, hill climb limitations reduced to 60 degrees and every mech get a 10-15% boost on breaking and acceleration rates. This should help ground bound mechs significantly .

[NoClass]

Reticle Shake raised the skill pre req to an acceptable level. Introducing shake on the fall is contrived.

The "meta" is too easy. Set aside heat, recycle time all of that and look at the relative difficulty of hitting other mechs in motion. The skill req is SUPER low for the high powered weapons. If the general population is able to field ballistic + PPCs effectively, then there is a problem.

Edited by VigilanceHawkwind, 01 July 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[KamikazeRat]

THIS
http://mwomercs.com/...90#entry3517290

recoil

one well aimed shot, accurate. alpha or rapid fire, starts to rotate your torso in a predictable pattern, lasers unaffected because they don't make recoil

all credit to Li Song (see link, read the googledoc he has linked if you're serious about it, it seems pretty well thought out and seems like it corrects the issue, without undue burden)

Edited by KamikazeRat, 01 July 2014 - 01:59 PM.

[KinsonRavenlock]

If you increase recycle rates all you're doing is allowing the weapons more time to cool down thus opening the option to mount more of them.
You'll have to come up with something to deal that.
As far as arty/air strikes go, I agree that a longer time between strikes would be an ideal solution.
I would also add arty/air to the same module slot so you can take one or the other but not both.

[Ultimax]

KamikazeRat, on 01 July 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

THIS
http://mwomercs.com/...90#entry3517290

recoil

one well aimed shot, accurate. alpha or rapid fire, starts to rotate your torso in a predictable pattern, lasers unaffected because they don't make recoil

Predictable patterns aren't good.

It's not something I'd do personally, but it's pretty well known that players in other games script their way around things like predictable patterns.

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 July 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

For the sake of civility, I won't comment at length on this, as we both know each other's divergent viewpoint.

There is no danger to civility here. (I left that thread to die because I respect you, and your points, too much to burn a potentially fruitful discussion partner in the future.)

Bishop Steiner, on 01 July 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

But I am glad you posted the whole "I play to win" part, since I was playing against your mech a few days ago (alt account), and admiring it's pure MEta build. Personally, I would have thought with your stance against it, you would feel a little...dirty? Playing a MetaTart.

I do feel dirty playing the build. I do not enjoy it, but I hate losing more. More recently, I have adopted a policy of playing creative and fun builds (like the Yen-Crow-Wang or 106kph laser surgeon) for as long as they are effective. (Namely in the morning until the bracket begins to fill with meta.) After 2 matches of straight meta stupidity, I switch to Meta and avenge my anger.

Bishop Steiner, on 01 July 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Still, after the last 2 weeks, I hope you don't get your wish about ACs (sadly, I believe you will), as I just see the Clan /IS balance falling flat on it's face.

What will be will be, kay syrah, syrah.

At this point I do not care about the ACs, I would like for them to find an alternative way to make them competitive, but I really could just give a **** less about the ACs. Nuking the RoF on Gauss and PPC, IMO, would go along way in making it risky to run the current meta.

KinsonRavenlock, on 01 July 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

If you increase recycle rates all you're doing is allowing the weapons more time to cool down thus opening the option to mount more of them.
You'll have to come up with something to deal that.
As far as arty/air strikes go, I agree that a longer time between strikes would be an ideal solution.
I would also add arty/air to the same module slot so you can take one or the other but not both.

1: They can do that already, but do not- if they choose to react that way (more PPCs) then they are that much more screwed when a short range mech with better RoF shows up to rip them a new one.

2: 1 or the other could also help.

[KamikazeRat]

Ultimatum X, on 01 July 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

Predictable patterns aren't good.

It's not something I'd do personally, but it's pretty well known that players in other games script their way around things like predictable patterns.

well, thats why it has a random fire delay, something that you wouldn't notice, but that when you fire large groups, or repeatedly, the random fire delay between shots is enough to tweak your torso to throw of long range accuracy after the first shot, and with the random delay built in, a script would just be correcting before/after the shots so still not 100% accurate, scripting might help with a single uac5, but not 4 of them, still throw you around a bit

seriously, follow link, read the thing...when you get time, it is a bit wordy...but seriously well thought out, probably more well thought out than alot of the "fixes" PGI throws at this problem

its all put together to hinder large alpha, ppfld snipers, but not completely nerf it just takes a little bit of the pin point out of it. doesnt really effecting brawling(too close for recoil to make you miss shots) or single weapon sniping (enough time to compensate and reaquire target).

EDIT: also, realism, cause RECOIL...big guns should recoil....right?

Edited by KamikazeRat, 01 July 2014 - 04:43 PM.

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

Scrub. L2P. That is all. Stop crying about ac5s/ppcs and gauss/ppcs. The gauss got nerfed with total BS. The erppcs are unusable. Reg ppcs are good. Ac5s got RoF nerfed to ****. Uac5s jam and RoF nerfed. SO STFU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and L2P!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Alexandrix]

POOTYTANGASAUR, on 01 July 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:

Scrub. L2P. That is all. Stop crying about ac5s/ppcs and gauss/ppcs. The gauss got nerfed with total BS. The erppcs are unusable. Reg ppcs are good. Ac5s got RoF nerfed to ****. Uac5s jam and RoF nerfed. SO STFU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and L2P!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can't tell if serious....or trolling....

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 01 July 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

At this point I do not care about the ACs, I would like for them to find an alternative way to make them competitive, but I really could just give a **** less about the ACs. Nuking the RoF on Gauss and PPC, IMO, would go along way in making it risky to run the current meta.

And on that, I can assure you, we do see eye to eye.