114 replies to this topic

[Tezcatli]

My suggestion is make it so ERPPCs do splash damage below a certain range. Clan version even more splash. That way they're not as pin point in a brawl. And Gauss rifles. Increase chance to explode, perhaps especially if the shots are within a certain range.

I think these weapons with their current drawbacks maybe don't deserve to be nerfed harder. But since they're supposed to be specialized long range weapons. It would be a good idea to nerf the aspects that aren't needed for it.

[jaxjace]

Implement 5% chance of falling when using jump jet. make falling take 5 seconds to get up and cause slight damage.

[EgoSlayer]

Livewyr, on 01 July 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

That is cute. I love rolling digital dice to see if I am accurate or not. Screw the whole reticle thing.

(That works in TT because mechs are effectively *not* moving when you shoot.)



<snip>

You mean a cone of fire mechanic like just about every other FPS that 'rolls digital dice' to determine if you are accurate? Yes, that's what most people mean.

If you really want to fix the Jump Jet/PPC/Ballistic meta you apply adjustments that *only* affect the Jump Jet/PPC/Ballistic meta. Changing the rate of fire has minimal affect on the Jump sniper, but penalizes every build that uses even a single PPC or single ballistic. It's completely the wrong solution because it affects everyone else more than the meta itself.

A cone of fire, AKA recoil, deflection, etc when jumping is the best solution to Jump Jet/PPC/Ballistic meta because it ONLY affects Jump Jet/PPC/Ballistic meta. Some other options are more extreme but have the same effect, e.g. Jump Jets trigger cooldown/lockout on PPCs/Ballistics, can still use lasers (like most lights) or missiles so the affect is again to only the meta and it completely removes it.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 01 July 2014 - 07:55 PM.

[Ultimax]

Livewyr, on 01 July 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

At this point I do not care about the ACs, I would like for them to find an alternative way to make them competitive, but I really could just give a **** less about the ACs. Nuking the RoF on Gauss and PPC, IMO, would go along way in making it risky to run the current meta.

Nuking the RoF on Gauss and PPCs would just see people stop using them.

And again, the PPC is not a sniper weapon. 540m. That's not sniper range.

10 Damage. That's not sniper level damage.

You're lumping that single PPC into "2x PPCs and 1x Gauss - 29 Tons of Weapons (IS)"


3x Weapon systems =/= 1 Weapon system


That's exactly the problem, they are NOT ONE weapon system but they deliver their damage as if they were ONE system.


That's what needs to be dealt with, not individual weapons like 1 PPC being nerfed to uselessness for every other build.


Gauss is a 15 ton weapon that has barely more DPS than an AC 5. An 8 ton weapon.

It already has a four second cooldown +0.75s charge up time for a total of nearly five seconds.



There are like a half a dozen better proposals to address the root issues of poptarting / pinpoint massed weapon alphas that do not call for nerfs on individual weapon systems.

[SoHxPaladin]

Artifact, on 01 July 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

The absurd lengths people go to to avoid the obvious makes me laugh.

Want to fix the metagame? It's simple:add a slight degree of uncertainty about where PPC bolts/AC rounds/Gauss shots will go. It doesn't have to be much -- few minutes of angle will emulate TT rules, and spread damage around at range. When a mech is airborne, double the degree of uncertainty.

Problem solved, now pay me a massive consulting fee.

Why is it so hard to implement this to make this game about how you use the build and not how well you can strip one piece off a mech without taking great risks?

Yes, this game should require skill, but it should require more skilled use of your brain for the map and situation you find your current build in, not just find cover and shoot till your team moves.

Using the terrain, using the JJ (where they are ran by the heat your mech can handle, therefore negating constant PPC use while jumping...) to move over and around obstacles, and work to your build strengths should be the focus. Not one build suits all, because it would not, and should not.

Now, Pay that man his money! ^^

[Fastwind]

Artifact, on 01 July 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

PGI has avoided the obvious (and only) solution forever because people like you can't accept the idea that sometimes, s$^& happens and you miss.

The ridiculous nerf cycles we've seen since closed beta with PPCs and ACs and heat sinks could all have been avoided with making fire slightly inaccurate. No one is happy with the current meta. Let's try a fix that has been proven effective in tons of games before this one.

Yea lets fix it with ******* BULLSHIT RNG.
SO everyone gets equal.
Those that can aim,and those that can't.
Why not just make it log on target and auto aim for everyone.So you need not the tiniest bit of skill at all.All with RNG of cause.
And than i wanna see what you say if you can't hit a Awesome at point blank range anymore and he just kills you because he gets RNG luck.
NO ***** RNG,learn to point your mouse at stuff.

[Jhaele]

The only problem I have with the suggestions to change the meta are whom they will affect. If the weapons are changed, as suggested, they will have a great impact on those who use them and don't have jump jets. Change the jump jets not the weapons.

[stjobe]

Fastwind, on 01 July 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

Yea lets fix it with ******* BULLSHIT RNG.
SO everyone gets equal.
Those that can aim,and those that can't.
Why not just make it log on target and auto aim for everyone.So you need not the tiniest bit of skill at all.All with RNG of cause.
And than i wanna see what you say if you can't hit a Awesome at point blank range anymore and he just kills you because he gets RNG luck.
NO ***** RNG,learn to point your mouse at stuff.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Mr. Anything-That-Threatens-My-Massively-OP-Mechanic-Must-Be-Stopped here is what's destroying this game.

Notice how the grandparent post argues for "a slight uncertainty", and Mr. Poptart here thinks that means we won't know if our weapons fire to the front or to the rear.

That most FPS games have a Cone of Fire in one way or the other seems to have passed him by completely.

What a genius.

Edited by stjobe, 01 July 2014 - 08:55 PM.

[EgoSlayer]

stjobe, on 01 July 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

This is why we can't have nice things.

Mr. Anything-That-Threatens-My-Massively-OP-Mechanic-Must-Be-Stopped here is what's destroying this game.

Notice how the grandparent post argues for "a slight uncertainty", and Mr. Poptart here thinks that means we won't know if our weapons fire to the front or to the rear.

That most FPS games have a Cone of Fire in one way or the other seems to have passed him by completely.

What a genius.

QFT

Sadly, I can only like this once, So I'll quote it for extra effect. Nobody is asking for complete RNG, just a cone of fire mechanic that exists in nearly every FPS, except Mechwarrior of course, and even still most are only asking for the cone of fire *while jumping*. Anyone who is arguing against that is just defending their pop-tart meta and not thinking about the metagame itself.

[Dr HaxZaw]

Any nerf to the PPC/Gauss is going to see LRM use explode in pub games... It's already incredibly bad but they don't need another excuse for terrible players to load up on more LRMs

[stjobe]

Dr HaxZaw, on 01 July 2014 - 09:05 PM, said:

Any nerf to the PPC/Gauss is going to see LRM use explode in pub games... It's already incredibly bad but they don't need another excuse for terrible players to load up on more LRMs

Coupled with a SRM buff it might just mean seeing SRM use explode in pub games; the Buckton fix already had a nice enough effect in that direction.

Also, I'll take LRM spam over PPC/Gauss spam any day of the week; LRMs spread their damage and can be actively mitigated in a way that the pin-point accurate, instant-convergence, front-loaded alphas can not.

I can survive standing in LRM rain like a tard for way much longer than I can standing in front of PPC/Gauss fire; I can also outmaneuver them much more easily, and best of all: I can fire back at a LRM boat without him immediately coring me with a few 30-50 pt alphas.

In short, LRMs are so much less of an issue that it's almost laughable you bring them up as a counter-argument.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Livewyr, on 01 July 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

That is cute. I love rolling digital dice to see if I am accurate or not. Screw the whole reticle thing.

so, you actively hate every Cone of Fire mechanic in every other FPS game ever? Including a simulator such as ARMA? Wher even the tanks there have a COF design, because it helps to "Simulate" the effect of movement/terrain variables on the rounds?

You're so cute.

[Dr HaxZaw]

Quote

: I can fire back at a LRM boat without him immediately coring me with a few 30-50 pt alphas.

Clearly your thinking that an LRM boat won't be behind cover relying on someone else spotting you... Dealing with the PPC/Gauss meta is a whole lot easier than you think.

[Mcgral18]

Dr HaxZaw, on 01 July 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

Clearly your thinking that an LRM boat won't be behind cover relying on someone else spotting you... Dealing with the PPC/Gauss meta is a whole lot easier than you think.

And dealing with Lurms is even easier.

[stjobe]

Fun fact: The M256 120mm Rheinmetall gun on the M1A1 Abrams MBT has a cone of fire of 35 meters at 8,000 meters.

[Lykaon]

Spheroid, on 01 July 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

Your post is outdated. Weight matching and jump jet nerfs are almost here. Plus I see tons of different builds since the Buckton fix and Clan release.

If there was really a meta problem it would be nothing but Dragonslayers every match. That is simply not the case.

If we use the tournament as a crystal ball to predict the evolution of this game (high end competitive play is generaly speaking the evolved end game) then all we will see is dragon slayers (assaults) Cataphract 3D (heavy) Shadowhawk 2H (medium) Embers or spider 5Ds (lights) So 3/3/3/3 will mean nothing in the end game but 3 dragon slayers 3 cataphract 3Ds 3 Shadowhawks and 3 embers or spiders.

Your Elo may not have been infected yet.The simple and plain truth is if you are not using pin point front loaded damage with or without jumpjets poptarting you are playing with a handicap when you do face this meta.

There is in truth no reason at all not to play meta.except those reasons fabricated by players.

And the annoying thing is PGI has already taken steps to limit the meta in clantech but has failed to follow through completely.

Now we will have a mechanic that triggers fall damage to mech's legs that has far more impact on mechs with no jets than mechs with them.How is this a fix to poptarting? I simply drop 1/5 ton armor 1/5 ton ammo add a third jet to my DS slap in that module for terrain negotiation to reduce leg damage and I'm off to poptart away as always.But,my non jumpjet equiped mechs will be busting their legs off on maps like alpine and canyon because they have NO jets to beak a fall.

If you want to fix the meta then PGI needs to bite the bullet and totally remove all pinpoint FLD.

All ACs must be made burst fire
All PPCs must be made to splash (a beam duration would be better but ...)
All gauss rifles need to be designed to fire 3 five damage shots in a rapid succession (to spread damage when fired by rapidly moving platforms like poptarts and lights/super fast mediums yet fired fast enough to still allow accurate shots from true sniping mechs that move slower and aim)


With the upcoming changes to matchmaker allowing groups of 5-10 and 12 only dropping in group vs group and groups of 2-4 mostly dropping in group vs group I forsee three major effects on the grouping players (the actual backbone of the community warfare mechanics)

One: long waiting periods for match searches to find the magic combination of groups to sum to 12.

Two: Teams with the larger single group will have the edge and win more often than not.This means that a major factor in determining victory is not decided by the players it's a function of the matchmaker.(a current issue with matchmaker actually)

Three: Enforced exposure to the very narrow meta with the group queue becoming a meta mandatory zone to be competitive.

Meanwhile (some) puggies get to continue to complain that the occational 2-4 player premade has ruined their game without a single thought about how PGI has once again bucked under to them at the expence of the very players that will make community warfare work in this game,the grouped players.

[Livewyr]

EgoSlayer, on 01 July 2014 - 07:54 PM, said:

You mean a cone of fire mechanic like just about every other FPS that 'rolls digital dice' to determine if you are accurate? Yes, that's what most people mean.

If you really want to fix the Jump Jet/PPC/Ballistic meta you apply adjustments that *only* affect the Jump Jet/PPC/Ballistic meta. Changing the rate of fire has minimal affect on the Jump sniper, but penalizes every build that uses even a single PPC or single ballistic. It's completely the wrong solution because it affects everyone else more than the meta itself.

A cone of fire, AKA recoil, deflection, etc when jumping is the best solution to Jump Jet/PPC/Ballistic meta because it ONLY affects Jump Jet/PPC/Ballistic meta. Some other options are more extreme but have the same effect, e.g. Jump Jets trigger cooldown/lockout on PPCs/Ballistics, can still use lasers (like most lights) or missiles so the affect is again to only the meta and it completely removes it.

Without adjusting the weapons themselves, and only adjusting the poptart half of it; you will go from Jumpsniping meta to Hill humping meta, or the corner humping meta- which is about the same thing.. (Remember the 6PPC stalker? That was meta without the JJs.)

Do you people really *not* see a problem with long range weapons that brawl well too?

Ultimatum X, on 01 July 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

Nuking the RoF on Gauss and PPCs would just see people stop using them.

And again, the PPC is not a sniper weapon. 540m. That's not sniper range.

10 Damage. That's not sniper level damage.

You're lumping that single PPC into "2x PPCs and 1x Gauss - 29 Tons of Weapons (IS)"


3x Weapon systems =/= 1 Weapon system


That's exactly the problem, they are NOT ONE weapon system but they deliver their damage as if they were ONE system.


That's what needs to be dealt with, not individual weapons like 1 PPC being nerfed to uselessness for every other build.


Gauss is a 15 ton weapon that has barely more DPS than an AC 5. An 8 ton weapon.

It already has a four second cooldown +0.75s charge up time for a total of nearly five seconds.



There are like a half a dozen better proposals to address the root issues of poptarting / pinpoint massed weapon alphas that do not call for nerfs on individual weapon systems.

Currently:
Brawlers- nice at short range. At range, in high Elo, do not bother coming.
PPCs/Gauss- effective at short range. Effective at long range.

Can you guess why there are a bunch of PPCs and Gauss in the meta? Because players wanting to win recognize that there is NO drawback to them. None. Whatsoever. They can shoot the short range builds just as many times as the short range builds can shoot them. And they can do it starting from long before the short range has a chance. And, on top of that, if the short range build DOES make it to them (assuming it is not a mangled 1/3rd of a mech) they can still jack it up at its own rate of fire, in its own range.

I would rather see PPCs and Gauss used for ranged punch on mixed builds. (You know, that build that does not leave you completely vulnerable at a particular range?)

Do you *NOT* want to see a real trade-off for being able to engage at 2-3 times the range of the shorter range weapons?

SoHxPaladin, on 01 July 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

Why is it so hard to implement this to make this game about how you use the build and not how well you can strip one piece off a mech without taking great risks?

Yes, this game should require skill, but it should require more skilled use of your brain for the map and situation you find your current build in, not just find cover and shoot till your team moves.

Using the terrain, using the JJ (where they are ran by the heat your mech can handle, therefore negating constant PPC use while jumping...) to move over and around obstacles, and work to your build strengths should be the focus. Not one build suits all, because it would not, and should not.

Now, Pay that man his money! ^^

In what terrain usage, does a short range build have an appreciable advantage over a ranged build?

Even if your whole map was a 300x300m square, the short range build would *not* have an appreciable advantage.. because the long range build can fight just as effectively at short range.

Why is this difficult to see?

Jhaele, on 01 July 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

The only problem I have with the suggestions to change the meta are whom they will affect. If the weapons are changed, as suggested, they will have a great impact on those who use them and don't have jump jets. Change the jump jets not the weapons.

They will effect anyone who wants to mount ONLY PPCs/Gauss. (It is not just Jumpsnipers that mount PPCs and Gauss. Jagers do it, K2s do it, hell even Dragons do 2PPCs/ACs.. because the weapons are JUST THAT GOOD.)

EgoSlayer, on 01 July 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

QFT

Sadly, I can only like this once, So I'll quote it for extra effect. Nobody is asking for complete RNG, just a cone of fire mechanic that exists in nearly every FPS, except Mechwarrior of course, and even still most are only asking for the cone of fire *while jumping*. Anyone who is arguing against that is just defending their pop-tart meta and not thinking about the metagame itself.

I am sure you are aware, but just forgot about the hill and corner humping side of the meta, right? (The whole reason why people use DSs so they can load everything to one side. Not necessary for poptarting, necessary for corner humping.)

------------------
(And what governs the CoF, besides RNG?)

The only place I see CoF being useful is in Full-auto weapons.. like the MGs... which already have it.

Flash Frame, on 01 July 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

so, you actively hate every Cone of Fire mechanic in every other FPS game ever? Including a simulator such as ARMA? Wher even the tanks there have a COF design, because it helps to "Simulate" the effect of movement/terrain variables on the rounds?

You're so cute.

You would be able to apply the CoF to what.. ACs? Maybe Gauss? (Gauss, at this range, not likely, but sure we will say it is susceptible too...)
(PPCs are a mass of energy- not susceptible to environmental effects) But for the sake of argument, we will say they are. So strike PPCs.

Welcome your new ERLL meta overlords. (Or would you like to explain a CoF reason for Lasers?)

Then the clans would REALLY be broken.

Oh the cuteness.

stjobe, on 01 July 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

Fun fact: The M256 120mm Rheinmetall gun on the M1A1 Abrams MBT has a cone of fire of 35 meters at 8,000 meters.

Interesting, thank you for applying real life to the BT game. What is the Abrams CoF at 500 meters? (for shiggles)

[King Arthur IV]

i agree with almost everything but i will highlight the arty part

when i drop with other high elo players, all i hear is "wait need to equip arty, or crap i forgot to put arty on"

currently the arty and a few other modules do not have enough draw backs to them.

[Ultimax]

Livewyr, on 02 July 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

Without adjusting the weapons themselves, and only adjusting the poptart half of it; you will go from Jumpsniping meta to Hill humping meta, or the corner humping meta- which is about the same thing.. (Remember the 6PPC stalker? That was meta without the JJs.)

I disagree.

This is what would be different:

1) More mechs would be "viable". As opposed to now where only a small handful can actually run the builds.
2) We're all arguing for a change in the mechanics of delivery. This alone would mean that getting hit with 30 point alphas are no longer pinpoint alphas. The damage would be spread better.


You seem to think we are saying "Do nothing".

We are not saying "Do nothing" - we are saying "Don't nerf individual weapons. Adjust the delivery mechanics"

Livewyr, on 02 July 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

Can you guess why there are a bunch of PPCs and Gauss in the meta?

Yes because pinpoint convergence is superior to spread damage, even when the weight to damage ratio is massively in favor of the spread weapons.

Because 3 weapon systems are allowed to converge on a single, tiny point.

Because you can also fire those 30 tons of multiple weapon systems in half second snapshots after a short jump without suffering massive accuracy penalties.

Livewyr, on 02 July 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

Do you *NOT* want to see a real trade-off for being able to engage at 2-3 times the range of the shorter range weapons?

There is a trade off.

The trade off is weight to damage ratio.

The problem is that the benefit of that weight to damage ratio is lost because spread mechanics are inferior to pinpoint mechanics. Not because of RoF.


SRMs have an "optimal" range of 270m - except firing them at targets 270m away is like farting in their general direction while - this is a delivery mechanics issue.

Even if you get point blank, the delivery is still a mess. You lose way too much damage in the spread.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 July 2014 - 05:09 AM.

[Penance]

Nooblet question...what do you mean by 'meta'?

The way I know the term is: to think of the kind of mechs you'll face and build a mech to counter them. If anyone here plays magic the gathering it's that form of metagame, thinking of the decks you'll likely see in a tourney, then building your deck to counter.

In mwo though it seems to mean a particular type of build?