64 replies to this topic

[Lykaon]

crossflip, on 01 July 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

It can be either useless or overpowered. There is no viable middle ground because people expect efficiency out of their tonnage. No one would use it if it were "balanced" because there's other, better ways to spend that tonnage.

The big issue is NARC was not balanced for it's function because it was co-opted into the ECM messcapade.

The entire ECM/LRM/TAG/NARC bullcrap needs a near complete redesign to balance.And this is because ECM was put into the game well before it's purpose was fully realized by complete development of the support electronics it was meant to counter.

Back when ECM came out we had ...

TAG with a range of 400m (or was it 500?) that enhanced missile clustering effects.This was occationally used in premades and nearly devoid of use by puggies.

We had a NARC that was pretty much universely ignored because it sucked.

Artemis was release along side ECM so it was nigh impossible to tell if Artemis did anything if ECM was around.

BAP was also a door stop with 20% sensor range boost (attainable for 0 tonnage and crits with modules) and 120m detection of powered down mechs.Big whoop BAP was also mostly ignored as nigh unto useless.

Command consoles doing absolutley nothing compared to the much improved doing nearly nothing current version.Anyone going to bother with command consoles? doubtful.

Essentially there was nothing for ECM to counter with all of the support electronics being neglected or under developed.

So "logicaly" ECM needed new abilities since the purpose it was designed for had yet to be added to the game.

So magicly ECM became an anti missile device coupled with a stealth feature for the whole gang that also turned off a bunch of stuff people were not using anyhow.

This was complained about with such frequency the Devs decided to...

Not change ECM or develop support electronics but add anti ecm to the very equipment ECM was suppose to be a counter measure to.

The reason ECM plays so heavily into LRM balance is how everything ended up.

ECM hard countered LRMs themselves instead of countering and mitigating LRM enhancing electronics.

Those very same LRM support electronics that ECM was suppose to counter became the counters to ECM.

So time to reset and redesign to make some sense of this mess.

[ManDaisy]

Warhippy, you may think you have addressed my points but all you really have said is dont get narced, and find cover (I think you may be confused with narc viable cover and normal cover) In all three responses.

Edited by ManDaisy, 02 July 2014 - 08:41 AM.

[TLBFestus]

I still think it would be cool if you, as a team mate, could shoot the NARC off. All it would take is a simple small laser hit to remove it.

Of course most would probably use a PPC, AC20, or Alpha Strike and hilarity would ensue........

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

ManDaisy, on 01 July 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

Narc is a bit too powerful at the moment. I feel the range it can share targeting information should be lowered. Too much missile spam going on. Transmission should be like a 500m radius from the narced target.

Lots of trolls lately. 1/10

[Mercules]

ManDaisy, on 02 July 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

Warhippy, you may think you have addressed my points but all you really have said is dont get narced, and find cover (I think you may be confused with narc viable cover and normal cover) In all three responses.

Because really, that is all you need to do to counter NARC. Technically they are the same tactics that work to counter LRMs in general... the same tactics many people fail to put into practice.

[DeathlyEyes]

Mercules, on 02 July 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

Because really, that is all you need to do to counter NARC. Technically they are the same tactics that work to counter LRMs in general... the same tactics many people fail to put into practice.

Except the problem is that most cover isn't actually tall enough to stop narcs. Even in valley's on canyon missiles still lob over. Not to mention there is virtually no cover on much of Caustic Valley.

[Mercules]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 02 July 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

Except the problem is that most cover isn't actually tall enough to stop narcs. Even in valley's on canyon missiles still lob over. Not to mention there is virtually no cover on much of Caustic Valley.

Except if you follow the same practices you do for LRMs you don't get NARC'd in the first place.

AMS, ECM, not being in the open, and watching for spotting mechs.

[DeathlyEyes]

Mercules, on 02 July 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Except if you follow the same practices you do for LRMs you don't get NARC'd in the first place.

AMS, ECM, not being in the open, and watching for spotting mechs.

That's totally unrealistic to expect in a pug match. Sure I can take AMS but I am not going to be guranteed my 11 idiots on my team will. ECM doesn't help you personally so that's not realistic. Narc would work fine in team situations where you had a full team setup with a damage timeout around 100 damage and the ability to cut through ECM. So either balance it for Team play or Solo play. It's not going to be balanced for both.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 02 July 2014 - 09:52 AM.

[kapusta11]

NARC is worthless - PGI plase buff it.
NARC is useful - PGI please nerf it.

It seems that you guys deserve to play the thurd which MWO currently is.

[Mercules]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 02 July 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

That's totally unrealistic to expect in a pug match. Sure I can take AMS but I am not going to be guranteed my 11 idiots on my team will. ECM doesn't help you personally so that's not realistic.

Ehem... so instead of pointing out to the 11 idiots that NARC is prevented by X we should say they are right and it's unstoppable? They won't learn if no one ever tells them otherwise. We don't balance the game based on people being to ignorant to play it... or shouldn't.

[DeathlyEyes]

Mercules, on 02 July 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

Ehem... so instead of pointing out to the 11 idiots that NARC is prevented by X we should say they are right and it's unstoppable? They won't learn if no one ever tells them otherwise. We don't balance the game based on people being to ignorant to play it... or shouldn't.

Except with a 100-150 damage timeout it would be balanced for team play.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nah. Given the tonnage and coordination required it should be devastating.

On some maps you are screwed, and you can't just "not get NARCed", as it is not that hard for a light to get LoS on you while you are behind cover, and you can't be watching 360 degrees at all times, and on some maps there are very few "not out in the open" locations, but that's just how life goes unfortunately.

[DeathlyEyes]

Mercules, on 02 July 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

Ehem... so instead of pointing out to the 11 idiots that NARC is prevented by X we should say they are right and it's unstoppable? They won't learn if no one ever tells them otherwise. We don't balance the game based on people being to ignorant to play it... or shouldn't.

Clan Narc weighs 2 tons and has a 600 meter range.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 02 July 2014 - 10:04 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I know but if we don't let the lurmers have their shot at glory they will keep hating on other weapons.

On the flip side, NARC is 4-5 tons of equipment and ammo, Gauss rifle is 18 tons of weapon and ammo, so all the folks arguing "but so much tonnage for a light mech, why would they take it if it wasn't effective". Just saying, 1 gauss rifle should be 3-4 times as deadly as NARC.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 July 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[WarHippy]

ManDaisy, on 02 July 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

Warhippy, you may think you have addressed my points but all you really have said is dont get narced, and find cover (I think you may be confused with narc viable cover and normal cover) In all three responses.

You may think you have addressed my counter points, but all you have really said was that getting narc'd puts you at a disadvantage(as it should) and you don't want to have to deal with it because its hard .

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 02 July 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

That's totally unrealistic to expect in a pug match. Sure I can take AMS but I am not going to be guranteed my 11 idiots on my team will. ECM doesn't help you personally so that's not realistic. Narc would work fine in team situations where you had a full team setup with a damage timeout around 100 damage and the ability to cut through ECM. So either balance it for Team play or Solo play. It's not going to be balanced for both.

As someone that plays pretty much nothing but pug matches I don't see the problem. All of those things he listed work fine for avoiding the rain, and that is true for both solo and team play.

[DeathlyEyes]

WarHippy, on 02 July 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

You may think you have addressed my counter points, but all you have really said was that getting narc'd puts you at a disadvantage(as it should) and you don't want to have to deal with it because its hard .
As someone that plays pretty much nothing but pug matches I don't see the problem. All of those things he listed work fine for avoiding the rain, and that is true for both solo and team play.

Let's narc you on Caustic Valley and see what happens.

Narc's LRMs and spotting and had their place in 12 mans well before. Top 2 damagers were LRM boats against poptarts. This was well before any of the recent LRM bufs and Narc Buffs. I do agree 30 damage was far too little but unlimited damage is totally unnecessary.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 02 July 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[ManDaisy]

Fact is 2 problems. Once your narced all mechs no matter how far have line of site on you. Narc missile behavior makes traditional missile cover obsolete. Where as missiles are balanced with only missile heavy mechs needing a line of site to hit you, very rarely creating the possiblility that all will target you, when you are narced... ALL missile mechs can target you and your cover is obsolete.

Many of you are not taking this beyond the scope of the firepower of one vs one line of site mech battles. When you are narced the possibility of 12 vs one becomes reality. (max threat, usualy threat is usually 4 versus 1. avg 30 missiles per carrier, ~1200 missiles at you in 30 seconds)

WITH a range limit, it brings the number of mechs with line of site down back to normal levels as NOT ALL mechs have line of site on you. In situations where you are within the narc broadcasting range, the behavior would still be the same.

Edited by ManDaisy, 02 July 2014 - 10:12 AM.

[Mercules]

ManDaisy, on 02 July 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Fact is 2 problems. Once your narced all mechs no matter how far have line of site on you. Narc missile behavior makes traditional missile cover obsolete. Where as missiles are balanced with only missile heavy mechs needing a line of site to hit you, very rarely creating the possiblility that all will target you, when you are narced... ALL missile mechs can target you and your cover is obsolete.

Many of you are not taking this beyond the scope of the firepower of one vs one line of site mech battles. When you are narced the possibility of 12 vs one becomes reality. (max threat, usualy threat is usually 4 versus 1. avg 30 missiles per carrier, ~1200 missiles at you in 30 seconds)

WITH a range limit, it brings the number of mechs with line of site down back to normal levels as NOT ALL mechs have line of site on you. In situations where you are within the narc broadcasting range, the behavior would still be the same.

I do the same thing by circling around the team and spotting with an ECM Commando/Spider/Raven. I do this weird thing and lock targets but don't fire and the mech I have targeted thinks it's in cover because no one looks around to find the spotter. Some of them even think they were NARC'd and then come on the forum and complain about how overpowering that device is when really it is team work on one side and lack of observation skill on the other.

[kapusta11]

NARC is fine, it's the LRMs that suffer from bad design, they either OP(good) against narced mech on caustic and alpine (only two maps) when focus fired or quite meh when it's only 1 boat on the rest of the maps.

Edited by kapusta11, 02 July 2014 - 10:39 AM.

[WarHippy]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 02 July 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Let's narc you on Caustic Valley and see what happens.

It has happened to me on Caustic Valley on several occasions and more often than not it isn't much of an issue. However, there have been times where I was obliterated because of it. The thing is when I got obliterated by missile fire after getting Narc'd it was because I got caught with my pants down rather than the missiles or Narc being over powered.

ManDaisy, on 02 July 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Fact is 2 problems. Once your narced all mechs no matter how far have line of site on you. Narc missile behavior makes traditional missile cover obsolete. Where as missiles are balanced with only missile heavy mechs needing a line of site to hit you, very rarely creating the possiblility that all will target you, when you are narced... ALL missile mechs can target you and your cover is obsolete.

If someone spots you others can target you no matter how far, and Narc works in a similar fashion. Does it make normal cover obsolete? No, it doesn't, but it does make it less effective, and I don't have a problem with that. Getting Narc'd should be dangerous, and it needs to be effective, neither of which would be the case with your proposed changes.

ManDaisy, on 02 July 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Many of you are not taking this beyond the scope of the firepower of one vs one line of site mech battles. When you are narced the possibility of 12 vs one becomes reality. (max threat, usualy threat is usually 4 versus 1. avg 30 missiles per carrier, ~1200 missiles at you in 30 seconds)

I have taken a Narc into a lot of games where not a single person fired on my Narc'd target, and others where four or five have fired on my Narc'd target. Sometimes the target dies, sometimes they don't, and sometimes it was a wasted Narc beacon because nobody took advantage of it.

ManDaisy, on 02 July 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

WITH a range limit, it brings the number of mechs with line of site down back to normal levels as NOT ALL mechs have line of site on you. In situations where you are within the narc broadcasting range, the behavior would still be the same.

Traveling in packs seems to be pretty common, and if you are in range of one mech you are probably in range of the rest of the murder ball. With a Narc broadcast range of 500m LRMs only make use of it in a 320m range(180m-500m), and who is going to waste tonnage on Narc when it is only effective in such a narrow window? Very few if any. Narc was finally made useful, and I don't want to see it rendered useless again by poorly reasoned nerfs.