Jump to content

Comparison Of The Weapons Between Clan And Ip On Spreadsheet


46 replies to this topic

#21 Mercules

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nimble
  • The Nimble
  • 5,136 posts
  • LocationPlymouth, MN

Posted 03 July 2014 - 05:12 AM

View Postbluepiglet, on 03 July 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:


I did use data from Smurfy's site. And I added in DPS/weight damage/heat and something other things to make it easier to make comparison. As for the statement, I don't have any to make. Like the topic says, it's comparison and discussion. It's up to every individual to draw their own conclusion. But somehow whatever came out of the tables made some members quite uncomfortable and they have been trying to derail the thread since.


Okay... comparison to what end? Discussing what?

Everyone knows Clan Weapons are, in general, better than IS except for things like AC/10 AC/20 because those are front loaded for IS. So your point of discussion is what?

#22 DYSEQTA

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Stone Cold
  • 347 posts
  • LocationAustralia

Posted 03 July 2014 - 05:14 AM

View Postbluepiglet, on 03 July 2014 - 04:20 AM, said:

Unless it's actually the topic makes you uncomfortable so you have to try hard to derail this thread.

There is nothing to derail. Your comparison is useless. Take your spreadsheet into a fight and see what happens...

#23 Mechteric

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 7,308 posts
  • LocationRTP, NC

Posted 03 July 2014 - 05:18 AM

These charts don't seem to take into account that clan mechs can't change their engines, structures, and other built-in equipment that can't be removed. Where's the chart for that?


I'd also love to see a chart showing clan light mech speeds versus IS light mechs speeds. Get on that.

#24 bluepiglet

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 359 posts

Posted 03 July 2014 - 05:25 AM

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 03 July 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

These charts don't seem to take into account that clan mechs can't change their engines, structures, and other built-in equipment that can't be removed. Where's the chart for that?


I'd also love to see a chart showing clan light mech speeds versus IS light mechs speeds. Get on that.


Posted Image

#25 Livewyr

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 6,733 posts
  • LocationWisconsin, USA

Posted 03 July 2014 - 05:29 AM

So, for the IS people here: Jenners, or Firestarters?

For Clans: Novas, or Stormcrows?

Why?

I will start:

Stormcrow; those high mounted lasers on the prime.. and the ridiculous amount of tubes on the D.. holy wow!

(I do miss JJs though, especially now.)

#26 Biaxialrain

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 291 posts
  • LocationThe Borderlands

Posted 03 July 2014 - 05:30 AM

More damage at longer ranges, same heat as IS and screen shake like no other.

Quote

"there is nothing wrong here, nothing to see, this is balance, you just need skill or L2P"


You pay to win clan fanboys are full of bullshit.

Edited by Biaxialrain, 03 July 2014 - 05:33 AM.


#27 Shae Starfyre

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Widow Maker
  • The Widow Maker
  • 1,429 posts
  • LocationThe Fringe

Posted 03 July 2014 - 05:32 AM

View Postbluepiglet, on 03 July 2014 - 03:38 AM, said:

You draw the conclusion yourself...

Posted Image


Does anyone know what the damages are on the first tick of any of the beam weapons?

#28 Bobby Blast

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 183 posts
  • LocationSouth Eastern United States

Posted 03 July 2014 - 05:32 AM

Also at face value those Ballistics are better until you consider that IS is 1 shot and Clan is burst fire, which is garbage by comparison. I would MUCH rather shoot you with 1 round that does 20 damage than 4 rounds that do 5 damage to your torso, legs, head, and arm...

Clan missiles have the issue an IS "Cloud of Death™" vs. the Clan OMG I Have Time to Mitigate This Damage By Running Into Cover While Each Individual Missile Pings Me For Negligible Damage of "OMGIHTtMTDbRICWEIMPMfND™"

Also Clan Pulse lasers have a longer burn time than IS lasers meaning there is more spread as well... In a game where pinpoint alphas reign king the clans fall short on that particular meta.

#29 Angel of Annihilation

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Infernal
  • The Infernal
  • 8,881 posts

Posted 03 July 2014 - 05:37 AM

Let me give you two words: Theory and Practice.

A C-ER LL does have an much longer effective engagement range of 900m for full damage vs the IS ER LL's 675m however most of the fighting in MWO takes place at less than 500m. That being the case, the range advantage of the C-ER LL in practice, is negated as a significant advantage under most conditions.

Second, we all know that the ability to concentrate maximum firepower on a specific target, usualy the CT, is the most effective way to kill an enemy mech. We also know that Lasers has a tendency to spread damage due to the pulse duration of lasers. We also know that the longer the pulse, the harder it is to keep the entire pulse on target. So lets look at that aspect in comparison.

The IS ER LL can do 9 damage in its one second pulse, where as the C-ER LL can only do 7.5 damage in that same 1 second duration. That is a 20% reduction in damage over 1 second when looking at the C-ER LL. The conclusion here is obvious, the IS ER LL is superior at concentrating damage.

Then let talk about how the pulse duration effects rate of fire. Obviously the the IS ER LL with the shorter pulse means that once you fire, the cool down starts a full half second faster than the C-ER LL. This means that the IS ER-LL can fire 3 times for every 2 times the C-ER LL fires. So then, the IS ER LL fires 3 times for a possible 27 damage. C-ER LL fires twice for a possible 22.5 damage. That is ANOTHER 20% reduction in damage compared to the IS ER LL.

So tell me again what advantage the Clan ER LL has of the IS version? Oh yeah, 225m greater range that it only get to take advantage of it is happens to be fighting on Alpine.

Now back to the original two words I mention, Theory and Practice.

Theory: Clan ER LLs have longer range and do greater damage.

Practice: Clan ER LLs cannot usually take advantage of their longer range and under practical combat conditions, actually do less concentrate and sustained damage as compared to IS ER LLs.

We can do this comparison with LRMs, ACs and many, if not the majority, of other Clan weapons. The only notable exceptions are the Clan ER ML and the Clan MG both of which are superior to their IS counterparts. However that is small compensation when everything else is at best equal and in most case inferior to IS weapons.

Honestly, my opinion is that PGI released the clans with ultra conservative numbers and many weapons need significant boosts to bring them up to par, most notably laser weapons and ACs.

Most Lasers need durations drasticaly reduced such as the Clan ER LL pulse being reduced to around 1.2 instead of 1.5 which is still 20% greater duration than IS. All Clan pulse lasers need a reduction down to about 0.8 or 0.9 (still significantly longer than IS version by 25-30%). The exception is the C-ER ML which should probably have its damage reduced by 1, but ONLY if all other suggesting in my post are implemented, otherwise the damage is needed to compensate for the other crappy weapons.

IS ACs probably need to be changed to burst fire like the Clan ones operate or perhaps the Clan Standard ACs need to fire a single slug.

Clan LRMs are significantly less effective than IS versions due to their ripple or stream fire effective, however we can leave them alone because the lighter weight of the Clan launchers means a Clan mech can, if they choose, typically bring more tubes to the party to make up for the missiles being less effective.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 03 July 2014 - 05:41 AM.


#30 Mercules

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nimble
  • The Nimble
  • 5,136 posts
  • LocationPlymouth, MN

Posted 03 July 2014 - 05:43 AM

View PostBiaxialrain, on 03 July 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

More damage at longer ranges, same heat as IS and screen shake like no other.



You pay to win clan fanboys are full of bullshit.

Let me point out something here.

I have bought some clan mechs. I prefer IS. I bought clan mechs so that I could play some and have experience with them so I could later have an educated discussion about them on the forums. That way I wouldn't go all frothy at the mouth spouting phrases like, "Pay to Win." and "fanboy" when people are having a discussion.

#31 bluepiglet

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 359 posts

Posted 03 July 2014 - 05:50 AM

View PostViktor Drake, on 03 July 2014 - 05:37 AM, said:

Let me give you two words: Theory and Practice.

A C-ER LL does have an much longer effective engagement range of 900m for full damage vs the IS ER LL's 675m however most of the fighting in MWO takes place at less than 500m. That being the case, the range advantage of the C-ER LL in practice, is negated as a significant advantage under most conditions.

Second, we all know that the ability to concentrate maximum firepower on a specific target, usualy the CT, is the most effective way to kill an enemy mech. We also know that Lasers has a tendency to spread damage due to the pulse duration of lasers. We also know that the longer the pulse, the harder it is to keep the entire pulse on target. So lets look at that aspect in comparison.

The IS ER LL can do 9 damage in its one second pulse, where as the C-ER LL can only do 7.5 damage in that same 1 second duration. That is a 20% reduction in damage over 1 second when looking at the C-ER LL. The conclusion here is obvious, the IS ER LL is superior at concentrating damage.

Then let talk about how the pulse duration effects rate of fire. Obviously the the IS ER LL with the shorter pulse means that once you fire, the cool down starts a full half second faster than the C-ER LL. This means that the IS ER-LL can fire 3 times for every 2 times the C-ER LL fires. So then, the IS ER LL fires 3 times for a possible 27 damage. C-ER LL fires twice for a possible 22.5 damage. That is ANOTHER 20% reduction in damage compared to the IS ER LL.

So tell me again what advantage the Clan ER LL has of the IS version? Oh yeah, 225m greater range that it only get to take advantage of it is happens to be fighting on Alpine.

Now back to the original two words I mention, Theory and Practice.

Theory: Clan ER LLs have longer range and do greater damage.

Practice: Clan ER LLs cannot usually take advantage of their longer range and under practical combat conditions, actually do less concentrate and sustained damage as compared to IS ER LLs.

We can do this comparison with LRMs, ACs and many, if not the majority, of other Clan weapons. The only notable exceptions are the Clan ER ML and the Clan MG both of which are superior to their IS counterparts. However that is small compensation when everything else is at best equal and in most case inferior to IS weapons.

Honestly, my opinion is that PGI released the clans with ultra conservative numbers and many weapons need significant boosts to bring them up to par, most notably laser weapons and ACs.

Most Lasers need durations drasticaly reduced such as the Clan ER LL pulse being reduced to around 1.2 instead of 1.5 which is still 20% greater duration than IS. All Clan pulse lasers need a reduction down to about 0.8 or 0.9 (still significantly longer than IS version by 25-30%). The exception is the C-ER ML which should probably have its damage reduced by 1, but ONLY if all other suggesting in my post are implemented, otherwise the damage is needed to compensate for the other crappy weapons.

IS ACs probably need to be changed to burst fire like the Clan ones operate or perhaps the Clan Standard ACs need to fire a single slug.

Clan LRMs are significantly less effective than IS versions due to their ripple or stream fire effective, however we can leave them alone because the lighter weight of the Clan launchers means a Clan mech can, if they choose, typically bring more tubes to the party to make up for the missiles being less effective.


See?! This is what we can a civilized discussion!!

#32 Livewyr

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 6,733 posts
  • LocationWisconsin, USA

Posted 03 July 2014 - 06:11 AM

View Postbluepiglet, on 03 July 2014 - 05:50 AM, said:


See?! This is what we can a civilized discussion!!


Then why is your response only to mention that?

#33 Ultimax

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 6,979 posts

Posted 03 July 2014 - 06:17 AM

Congratulations, you were able to create a spreadsheet that we already have on smurfy's.


Things you ignored:

> Longer burn time lasers
> Burst fire ACs
> Armor type that cannot be changed
> Structure that cannot be changed
> Engine that cannot be changed
> Locked items (DHS & JJs) that cannot be changed
> Arms that lose actuators with ballistics or PPCs slotted

#34 Mercules

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nimble
  • The Nimble
  • 5,136 posts
  • LocationPlymouth, MN

Posted 03 July 2014 - 06:22 AM

View Postbluepiglet, on 03 July 2014 - 03:38 AM, said:

You draw the conclusion yourself...

View Postbluepiglet, on 03 July 2014 - 03:58 AM, said:

You mean the "stream-fire" which shakes the screen of the targeted player so hard and constantly, making him totally unable to respond?

View Postbluepiglet, on 03 July 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:


Start your own thread if you want to discuss engines or anything else.

View Postbluepiglet, on 03 July 2014 - 04:47 AM, said:

Cherry pick? I have listed every single weapon type that Clan and IP share, except for the Artemis whose effect is identical to both factions. Why didn't you read the title before clicking it, it states clears this thread is about weapon statistics. Then if you have nothing related to it to say here, maybe STFU is the better option for you?

View Postbluepiglet, on 03 July 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:


Posted Image

View Postbluepiglet, on 03 July 2014 - 05:50 AM, said:

See?! This is what we can a civilized discussion!!


Look at your posts. You are not interested in a civilized discussion. Many of us have attempted to start one but you do not want to discuss anything.

#35 Ultimax

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 6,979 posts

Posted 03 July 2014 - 06:27 AM

View PostAphoticus, on 03 July 2014 - 05:32 AM, said:


Does anyone know what the damages are on the first tick of any of the beam weapons?


I think we all assume it's simply

Total Damage / Burn time* = Damage per tick
*in tenths of seconds

MLAS = 5 Damage
5 / 10 = 0.5 damage per tenth of a second

#36 Jeb

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 441 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationHalifax

Posted 03 July 2014 - 06:28 AM

View PostUltimatum X, on 03 July 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

Congratulations, you were able to create a spreadsheet that we already have on smurfy's.


Things you ignored:

> Longer burn time lasers
> Burst fire ACs
> Armor type that cannot be changed
> Structure that cannot be changed
> Engine that cannot be changed
> Locked items (DHS & JJs) that cannot be changed
> Arms that lose actuators with ballistics or PPCs slotted

and don't forget the LRMs ripple meaning AMS becomes much more effective.

The OP is comparing apples and oranges and trying to convince us the oranges are apples... or maybe he has convinced himself of that...

#37 Mechteric

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 7,308 posts
  • LocationRTP, NC

Posted 03 July 2014 - 06:29 AM

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 03 July 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

These charts don't seem to take into account that clan mechs can't change their engines, structures, and other built-in equipment that can't be removed. Where's the chart for that?


I'd also love to see a chart showing clan light mech speeds versus IS light mechs speeds. Get on that.

View Postbluepiglet, on 03 July 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:


Posted Image



I was trolling you. You really gotta get with it.

#38 The Wakelord

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • Survivor
  • 308 posts

Posted 03 July 2014 - 06:35 AM

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

This is great thanks.

The conclusions I draw from this (and gameplay) seem to be:

- Clan lasers are OP. Yes, in theory balanced, but in a medium mech I usually get 300-400 in a game. When I'm playing my Nova I've gotten over 1,000 twice (previous high score was 620). I'm not a great gamer by any means, so my max damage can be doubled, then a skilled player should be able to do much better. Afterall, isn't everyone saying clans require skill to play?
- IS ballistics are generally superior for their single hit (I miss so often due to mech going into cover etc while using the spray). & lower cooldown Clan ballistics can be useful in that some damage can be applied when spraying for a light, etc.
- Clan LRM are more scary when you get hit by them (and you can get hit with LOTS of them), but with cover and/or AMS they are less scary than IS. So each is balanced with pro/con to me.
- IS SRM are generally better, unless you are playing a lighter mech where tonnage makes a huge deal (ie: kitfox & commander), where clan SRM are suddenly awesome.
- Clan SSRM is very mixed due to massive cooldown (7 sec) making it terrible for brawling, and the lock-on requirement making it hard for cover fighitng.

Overall, I die quicker and do more damage as a Clan mech, but I survive a heck of a lot longer in IS mechs. Both are great fun, but I only play on the lighter half of the weight balance.

Edited by The Wakelord, 03 July 2014 - 06:41 AM.


#39 Jeb

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 441 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationHalifax

Posted 03 July 2014 - 07:01 AM

Is your Nova a 12 ERSL setup? If so, I think most people that are being honest agree that packs too much of a punch...

#40 The Wakelord

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • Survivor
  • 308 posts

Posted 03 July 2014 - 07:07 AM

View PostJeb, on 03 July 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

Is your Nova a 12 ERSL setup? If so, I think most people that are being honest agree that packs too much of a punch...

Normally 6ERML, 6ERSL, 4MG. I'd be the first to agree it punches well above its weight (I'm not complaining), even with the clan-style low slung arms and chunky hitboxes.





4 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 4 guests, 0 anonymous users