467 replies to this topic

[maniacos]

Reitrix, on 03 July 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

How do you "Balance" something that is inherently unbalanced by original design? A Light 'Mech was never meant to do what an Assault 'Mech can do, same in reverse.

Say what you mean by "Balance"

"A Light 'Mech was never meant to do what an Assault 'Mech can do, same in reverse." can be pretty well balanced, if the pros and cons enchase like two jigsaw pieces. An assault pilot does not want to do what a light can and vice versa. The problem is just this game is still too much focussed on firepower and shot'em'up.

[Matthew Craig]

Seems there is a bit of mis-conception building around the significance of these numbers. We've seen these stats internally since the start of closed beta and there has always been a 'preference' for heavier mechs. This is not the same as balance, think of it this way let's say you are playing with 3 friends and they are all running heavy or assault Mechs, that is their preference.

Now for that preference they have to wait longer in the match-making queue to get a game where you running your light mech get matched faster. It is true that the light and medium queues drain faster and that the heavy queue is generally the bottleneck as more users prefer to run these Mechs. This does not mean though that those heavy mechs are superior to the lights they may well be getting picked apart by the lights in game but the queue will not reflect that.

Now that isn't to say that balance has no impact on the queue sizes, obviously the more popular a class of mech this will be reflected in the queue status; however, balance is not the only reason for one queue to be larger than another, many Mechwarrior fans just like running larger mechs, there are a lot of popular chassis in the heavy range that players like to run. This doesn't mean they are clearly superior, balance will play a part in the queue sizes but not to the extent that current threads are making out, we have seen these preferences for a very long time long before fall damage and clan mechs.

Balance as always is ongoing and fall damage being a new system is likely to be tuned further as is the new iteration of the match maker, we are always seeking to ensure that games are fun and balanced. What we are seeing post yesterdays patch is that games are overall much better balanced. Does this mean games are perfectly balanced now, no it doesn't and we'll continue to work towards better and better balance and ironing out any edge cases but it isn't accurate to point to instantaneous queue sizes as a means to back up an argument that lights are less viable.

It may very well play out differently in game as now more players realize that with the stricter weight class matching that if they take a light there is guaranteed to be a light on the other team for you to counter.

[maniacos]

zhajin, on 03 July 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

the already low % has dropped since clans. many players wants to play their clan mechs and the clan lights just do not fit well. IS lights are still viable but not as popular. there just is not real incentive to play lights, but that is nothing new.

I really wanted to get the Adder but then I saw how they perform so I decided to save money and stay by my gang of four (JR7,SDR,RVN,Ember) and will complete it maybe with the LCT soon.

Matthew Craig, on 03 July 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

think of it this way let's say you are playing with 3 friends and they are all running heavy or assault Mechs, that is their preference.

Which I can not understand, what's more fun than a feisty wolfpack of lights with friends?

[Foxwalker]

Someone else already said it. TIMBER WOLF.

A guess is that Light pilot drivers who bought the new Clan stuff are not going to the Clan lights simply because they lack the speed of the IS counterparts. TWs are the best bang for the buck. Numbers will be skewed until people start playing other stuff after they level up the new stuff.

[Sandpit]

Matthew Craig, on 03 July 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Seems there is a bit of mis-conception building around the significance of these numbers. We've seen these stats internally since the start of closed beta and there has always been a 'preference' for heavier mechs. This is not the same as balance, think of it this way let's say you are playing with 3 friends and they are all running heavy or assault Mechs, that is their preference.

Now for that preference they have to wait longer in the match-making queue to get a game where you running your light mech get matched faster. It is true that the light and medium queues drain faster and that the heavy queue is generally the bottleneck as more users prefer to run these Mechs. This does not mean though that those heavy mechs are superior to the lights they may well be getting picked apart by the lights in game but the queue will not reflect that.

Now that isn't to say that balance has no impact on the queue sizes, obviously the more popular a class of mech this will be reflected in the queue status; however, balance is not the only reason for one queue to be larger than another, many Mechwarrior fans just like running larger mechs, there are a lot of popular chassis in the heavy range that players like to run. This doesn't mean they are clearly superior, balance will play a part in the queue sizes but not to the extent that current threads are making out, we have seen these preferences for a very long time long before fall damage and clan mechs.

Balance as always is ongoing and fall damage being a new system is likely to be tuned further as is the new iteration of the match maker, we are always seeking to ensure that games are fun and balanced. What we are seeing post yesterdays patch is that games are overall much better balanced. Does this mean games are perfectly balanced now, no it doesn't and we'll continue to work towards better and better balance and ironing out any edge cases but it isn't accurate to point to instantaneous queue sizes as a means to back up an argument that lights are less viable.

It may very well play out differently in game as now more players realize that with the stricter weight class matching that if they take a light there is guaranteed to be a light on the other team for you to counter.

Matt, thank you for the reply first off.

Please see my earlier post. No amount of "forceful" MM system is going to change 2 years of contrary gameplay. It's not going to get players more interested in those other weight classes.

Rule of 3 has merits but the problem is, it doesn't change a player's incentive. It's not going to magically make my buddy who loves his atlas WANT to trade that Atlas in for a spider. It's just not going to happen. The force composition restrictions won't affect much because of the release valves. (which is why it was taken down and reworked right? or at least one of the main reasons)

You guys need to come up with ways to change a player's desire. In other words if you REALLY want to help spread variety in weight and mechs, you need to look outside of things like this.

Foxwalker, on 03 July 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

Someone else already said it. TIMBER WOLF.

A guess is that Light pilot drivers who bought the new Clan stuff are not going to the Clan lights simply because they lack the speed of the IS counterparts. TWs are the best bang for the buck. Numbers will be skewed until people start playing other stuff after they level up the new stuff.

numbers were the same before clans, they're the same now. It's not going to change until other things are changed. When talking about stuff like that, MM is not the real culprit. You have ot look at the things that make it more desirable for a player to take those bug mechs over the smaller ones. That's the only way you're going to change this particular dynamic.

[Deathlike]

Matt..

There's a reality that even on a good day, a heavier mech (ideally Assault, or upper tier Heavies) are optimal for putting down Light mechs in this game.... EVEN if they have equal skill.

Understanding that people have their own preferences, it doesn't really explain about actual issues between weight classes relative to the queue, and that such differences are magnified over time through competitive gameplay trickling down to the masses. Sometimes, it is as simple as "monkey see, monkey do".

So, seeing the "less desirable" classes in the MM status tends to be what it is... a reflection of what balance has created for itself. If every class was "equally" desirable, this discrepancy would not be so large at any given point of the MM's queue status readouts.

Edited by Deathlike, 03 July 2014 - 10:46 AM.

[Zoid]

I'm actually surprised they are so low, they really work well against the clan weapons. The really nasty stuff is usually the autocannons and PPCs, which are really hard to use on lights at any decent range (assuming the light jukes well). Plus, there are so many targets people would rather shoot at than the lights that they tend to get ignored.

I have been doing 400-500 damage most matches I run my Firestarter (double AMS is virtually immune to clan missiles as well), but I run an Atlas more often just because I like running an Atlas more.

Edited by Zoid, 03 July 2014 - 10:47 AM.

[Tynan]

Surprise, it's what we already knew...every neckbeard alive wants to be a fat man with twenty Big Gunz and cry for nerfs to the little guy he can't hit because he's terribad.

What this really proves (just like the tournament where everyone was in a Jenner and there were *no* assaults, right?) is that lights need more nerfs, so all the bad shots can leg them and feel better about their e-peen.

[Alistair Winter]

Matthew Craig, on 03 July 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Seems there is a bit of mis-conception building around the significance of these numbers

I appreciate you taking the time to explain, but... I don't think you've actually said anything we didn't know, or anything that isn't brought up in every one of those threads you're referring to.

• Heavy mechs & assault mechs have been more popular for a long time. Yeah, we know. That's one of our complaints. We've been talking about it since early 2013, I think.
  
• The queue doesn't necessarily reflect the superiority of heavy / assault mechs. In theory, you are correct. In reality, however, heavy and assault mechs are indeed superior, so your point is moot.
  
• Taking another light mech means that the enemy will have another light mech. So what? In a game with 3 light mechs, 3 medium mechs, 3 heavy mechs and 3 assault mechs, people aren't picking the assault mech because they want to win. They're picking assault mechs because those are more powerful than the light and medium mechs, so they have a bigger impact on the game. They don't want to pilot the mech that sometimes gets instantly killed for taking a wrong turn, while having a tiny fraction of the firepower everyone else has. They want to play the deadliest mech in the game. All things being equal (pilot skills, teamwork), light mechs aren't as deadly as heavy and assault mechs. Surely you admit that? Unless I'm missing something, MWO competitions aren't won by teams in Commandos and Blackjacks.

I really appreciate the dialogue, but I don't see your point, I'm afraid.

[Foxwalker]

Yes, Matthew Craig - thank you so much for commenting!! It is much appreciated when you guys weigh in. It lets us know we are being listened to and you do follow these discussions.

Thanks!

[Reitrix]

Matthew Craig, on 03 July 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Seems there is a bit of mis-conception building around the significance of these numbers. We've seen these stats internally since the start of closed beta and there has always been a 'preference' for heavier mechs. This is not the same as balance, think of it this way let's say you are playing with 3 friends and they are all running heavy or assault Mechs, that is their preference.

Now for that preference they have to wait longer in the match-making queue to get a game where you running your light mech get matched faster. It is true that the light and medium queues drain faster and that the heavy queue is generally the bottleneck as more users prefer to run these Mechs. This does not mean though that those heavy mechs are superior to the lights they may well be getting picked apart by the lights in game but the queue will not reflect that.

Now that isn't to say that balance has no impact on the queue sizes, obviously the more popular a class of mech this will be reflected in the queue status; however, balance is not the only reason for one queue to be larger than another, many Mechwarrior fans just like running larger mechs, there are a lot of popular chassis in the heavy range that players like to run. This doesn't mean they are clearly superior, balance will play a part in the queue sizes but not to the extent that current threads are making out, we have seen these preferences for a very long time long before fall damage and clan mechs.

Balance as always is ongoing and fall damage being a new system is likely to be tuned further as is the new iteration of the match maker, we are always seeking to ensure that games are fun and balanced. What we are seeing post yesterdays patch is that games are overall much better balanced. Does this mean games are perfectly balanced now, no it doesn't and we'll continue to work towards better and better balance and ironing out any edge cases but it isn't accurate to point to instantaneous queue sizes as a means to back up an argument that lights are less viable.

It may very well play out differently in game as now more players realize that with the stricter weight class matching that if they take a light there is guaranteed to be a light on the other team for you to counter.

Looking strictly at team balance, its great that the teams have the same amount of any given class on both sides. But as Sandpit said, there just isn't any reason to bring anything light than a Heavy to our current arena deathmatches and arena deathmatches with a different secondary win condition.

I don't think even the new Attack/Defend Mode will change it, as more guns and armor on defense = better.

Its great there is a Light on the enemy team for me to counter when i bring my own Light, but why would i bring a Light to counter that Light when i can just bring an Assault 'Mech with Streaks (Or a large pinpoint meta alpha) to kill him just as easily and then continue being useful to my team once that Light is down?
On my Light, i just kill the Enemy Light and then ... just nibble away at the enemy Assaults? There needs to be a purpose to those fast Lights other than "haha I'm so faaaaaaaaaaaast".
Maps like Alpine and Tourmaline would amazing if they had small resupply bases, Comm Towers to cap(Or destroy to deny) to give temporary UAV coverage of a given area or just something, ANYTHING for a Light to do once his opposing Light is down.

[Hellcat420]

Alistair Winter, on 03 July 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

Strange, it says you joined in feb 2012. Did you forget the Age of Squawk? People loved playing light mechs when they were the most powerful mechs in the game. But having one of the cheapest mechs in the game be the #1 killer was bad for business, I guess. After a few days of playing, everyone could afford the RVN-3L, so you'd regularly see 4 of them in a match, sometimes more. Not to mention Jenners and ECM Commandos.

Right now we have a hero assault mech (Dragon slayer) and a $55 heavy mech (Timber wolf) as the #1 killer, but that's not such a big deal, for some reason.

Funny how that works, innit?

light mechs have never been as popular as heavier mechs in any MechWarrior game.

[Deathlike]

Hellcat420, on 03 July 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

light mechs have never been as popular as heavier mechs in any MechWarrior game.

They were extraordinarily popular when the 3L was in power.

Gee, I wonder why.

Most bad players moved away from it once it stopped becoming "godly", so they're now residing in Heavies and to a lesser extent, Assaults.

Edited by Deathlike, 03 July 2014 - 11:08 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Deathlike, on 03 July 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

They were extraordinarily popular when the 3L was in power.
Gee, I wonder why.
Most bad players moved away from it once it stopped becoming "godly", so they're now residing in Heavies and to a lesser extent, Assaults.

What he said.

And let's not forget, when the 3L was in power, the ECM was so incredibly powerful that a pack of Ravens would often have one or two Jenner / Commandos with streaks and medium lasers following them. It wasn't just the RVN-3L. We didn't have PPC, BAP or TAG to counter ECM, only ECM could counter ECM.

It's easy to forget how much the game's changed, but ultimately, people play the most deadly mech. That doesn't change.

[Tynan]

Hellcat420, on 03 July 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

light mechs have never been as popular as heavier mechs in any MechWarrior game.

Because in just about every battletech game lights have been straight up worse. As has been mentioned numerous times, BT was never intended to be balanced on a per-mech level, because players fielded lances of mechs. Because each player is in a mech, lights need to either be able to compete reasonably with heavier loadouts or have something else substantive to contribute to a match.

Also, every previous Mechwarrior title had a single-player campaign mode where you "progressed" from lighter to heavier mechs, and they were all terribly balanced for multiplayer. They're not good comparisons.

[Perilthecat]

It's a shame, it would be so cool if 3s actually worked and lights were well represented.

But there is the pressure valves which negates 3s if you're patient.

AND

Fall damage is making it harder to pilot a light (but also more realistic)

AND

There are no real incentives to pilot lights so they are poor moneymakers

AND

The Clan mechs just came out and people want to play those

AND

The Clan lights deviate from IS lights and are seen as being less effective

AND

Everyone is grinding their Timberwolves

AND

Poptart meta still reigns (but remember invincible Spider meta?)

AND

Role warfare doesn't exist really, so lights have no sanctioned "job"

AND

A lot of people are ingrained with the "bigger is better" NorAm mentality

AND

You get the idea

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

I only play lights. Most of the time the lights are lowest in the que. Sometimes mediums will be lower then lights, but only sometimes, and I stress sometimes.

As a light pilot I have my suspicions as to why. First of all lights are the hardest mech to learn to play right. Second, Clan and IS weapons no matter what they will eat a light in no time at all. Arty (dont nurf it I love it) will take a lights legs like a hot knife threw butter. No one plays ravens anymore unless they are leveling them. Because the leg hit boxes are way to big (4 the new people/ the rvn leg hit boxes were made bigger pre HSR and srm fix, they need to go back to pre nurf). A light can move 140+ (just throwing a competitive speed out there I know faster, faster meta) But if a light is legged its all over but the crying.

If a light is legged it sufferers a (off the top of my head 5 second stuck in place penalty then only able to go 40kph) The game might as well just auto kill a legged light. And no the legged mod is not worth it on a light.

That is just a few reasons no one is using light that much, cept the die hard light pilots. They have been invisa-nurfed. Things are getting bigger, stronger, more powerful and the lights are being ignored and not brought up to the curve of the rest of the game. Yes they all got a 5% buff to legs, its not even noticeable in the least.

Now I know a lot of you are going to take this as a QQ, but its not. I love lights, will only pilot lights. If nothing changes I will still only use lights. But they are the redheaded step children in the MWO world. Yes some of you are going to bring up a few other mechs in different weight classes that need help, but that is just a few. Lights,the entire class of them need a bit of fixing.

And no I dont need to learn to play lights. *whips out epeen for the trolls*
page 1 post # 16

and from my old PB account:

Edited by Funkadelic Mayhem, 03 July 2014 - 11:26 AM.

[Xarian]

I saw 55% medium last night, the rest were pretty even. It fluctuates a lot. Lights got hit hard when they fixed HSR.

[Chemistry Warden]

Typically I only run lights and mediums. On my lights that are srm users, I've been doing well. On my jenner-k that I've got kitted for NARC, it's a mixed bag, but my damage numbers are always lower than my srm commando or srm oxide (mostly because, you know, NARC). The clan mechs seem to have a bit of trouble with fast lights, especially dire wolves.

That being said, I won't complain about light buffs to encourage light use.

[Jman5]

Matthew Craig, on 03 July 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

It may very well play out differently in game as now more players realize that with the stricter weight class matching that if they take a light there is guaranteed to be a light on the other team for you to counter.

That's a good point that I had completely forgotten about. Back in pre-Elo days I used to justify me bringing a medium because it forced a medium on the other team. Now with the new matchmaking changes that is back.

On the point of balance. Don't you think that players will naturally gravitate toward the stronger character or play style in an online competitive video game? So if a certain mech/build is "op" people will shift toward that more. The fact that lights and mediums are the least played class would indicate, in my mind, that there is something going wrong in the balance department. People who play lights feel like they aren't performing as well in them as opposed to heavies and assaults.

If it was just people wanting to take the biggest thing out there, it would be all assaults right? So why the preponderance of heavies? I don't believe it's just iconic mechs. In my opinion it's because they get the best of both worlds. Tough, lots of weapons, and good speed.