328 replies to this topic

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 December 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Aye. While I recognize the goals behind zellbrigen, nobody can convince me that there is any real skill involved in marching directly at an enemy and beating each other until one falls down. Sounds like red coat tactics to me. My personal take is that the better pilot and marksman will utilize the resources that they have to their fullest. Have a range advantage, use it. Have a speed advantage, abuse it. Walking into another pilot's perfect fighting conditions is simply unwise. Far better to make a fight play out on your terms, quiaff?

This is an interesting vision of skill in combat. I might add that by considering old a warrior after he is 35 years old privileges fast reflexes over experience and this may be questionable. .Look at Natasha Kerensky and Joanna!

I would say basically Zellbrigen is like testing the strenght of each other's grip: a pure contest of aim, heat control, piloting and skillful use of your 'Mech and your loadout.

You know what? I play every time i drop a battle in which i have to exploiyt my advantageous and use all my resources. Sometimes it becomes a bit boring. I usually love any kind of not-standard competition (read: "Elemental fight and Harasser race in MWLL, Zellbrigen duels in MWO) so this kind of fights is always welcome.
Tib71
EDIT: ah, and yesterday i was not a lone wolf I met and dropped with your friend LeoTib71 and another one of his little unit I wanted to ask for a drop with you nut you were offline around midnight here in the old good Europe..

Edited by CyclonerM, 29 December 2013 - 01:48 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Ahh, yeah. He did mention you sent your regards. XD

The idea of testing aim and reflexes in a stand out and shoot down match falls apart with the prevalence of high rate of fire ballistic weaponry or guided munitions (SSRM/LRM). The former is about beating an opponent to shreds, the latter the weapons do the work for you. If a stand and slug it out style fight was truly to be a test of reflexes and accuracy the weapons would need to be limited to energy weapons, unguided SRM, gauss, and slow firing ballistics like AC10 and 20. Anything else is just a spamfest, and why I cannot in good mind consider the stereotypical notion of zellbrigen as going anywhere near achieving the stated goals of "testing the skill" of the pilots against one another.

Skill is such an all encompassing thing a DPS race will never do it justice. Maneuvering, tactical placement, smart use of terrain, heat management, exploiting your strengths to leverage against the opponent's weaknesses, plus the actual physical act of being able to hit what you want to hit.... This tells more true of the pilot's capabilities. Also, far more wasteful from a resource standpoint to practically obliterate two mechs, when a well piloted mech may be able to take another out with minimal damage incurred.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 29 December 2013 - 01:57 PM.

[Lucky Moniker]

Well when you try to look at it like its a problem of course you see it that way, Zell can be everything you described it as not depending on the fight, it is not a dps race, it comes down to shot placement, heat management, torso twist and damage spreading, and even mech building skills. If you set up to play a different game of course it won't work, you use what does work (not cheese spam or streak spam, simply what works for you). I personally find a lot of enjoyment in a good Zell duel, it is quite fun. But I can see where you are coming from, being told you must walk in a little circle can be constricting to certain mechs.

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 December 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

Ahh, yeah. He did mention you sent your regards. XD

The idea of testing aim and reflexes in a stand out and shoot down match falls apart with the prevalence of high rate of fire ballistic weaponry or guided munitions (SSRM/LRM). The former is about beating an opponent to shreds, the latter the weapons do the work for you. If a stand and slug it out style fight was truly to be a test of reflexes and accuracy the weapons would need to be limited to energy weapons, unguided SRM, gauss, and slow firing ballistics like AC10 and 20. Anything else is just a spamfest, and why I cannot in good mind consider the stereotypical notion of zellbrigen as going anywhere near achieving the stated goals of "testing the skill" of the pilots against one another.

Skill is such an all encompassing thing a DPS race will never do it justice. Maneuvering, tactical placement, smart use of terrain, heat management, exploiting your strengths to leverage against the opponent's weaknesses, plus the actual physical act of being able to hit what you want to hit.... This tells more true of the pilot's capabilities. Also, far more wasteful from a resource standpoint to practically obliterate two mechs, when a well piloted mech may be able to take another out with minimal damage incurred.

I think in Lore LRMs are harder to use even with a clear LOS.. And even autocannons are not always likely to place all the damage in the same spot.

So everything starts from how badly lore translates in MW games.. Sadly.

Oh and actually as any faction there are some odd facts in Clan culture. Why should you waste a HUGE amount of materials, time, manpower and lives to do a Grand Melee ONLY to decide who should have the 32nd spot in a Trial of Bloodright..

Edit: Answer: to give Aidan Pryde and Trent a good 'Mech battle to fight.

Edited by CyclonerM, 29 December 2013 - 02:48 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Lucky Moniker, on 29 December 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

Well when you try to look at it like its a problem of course you see it that way, Zell can be everything you described it as not depending on the fight, it is not a dps race, it comes down to shot placement, heat management, torso twist and damage spreading, and even mech building skills. If you set up to play a different game of course it won't work, you use what does work (not cheese spam or streak spam, simply what works for you). I personally find a lot of enjoyment in a good Zell duel, it is quite fun. But I can see where you are coming from, being told you must walk in a little circle can be constricting to certain mechs.

With respect, it is a problem. Zellbrigen was created with four goals in mind; Limit waste, test skill, reduce collateral damage, and solve problems quickly. Zellbrigen, if stuck to closely to the high end of the written rules fails to succeed on points one and two.

You can armor roll, but then you cannot shoot back as you do so. Your enemy can just keep wailing on you as you armor roll with his autocannons as you have no option to duck behind cover. If you shot first, invert that. Alternatively, you both line up the center of the red square, pull the trigger, and hope that between the mutually blinding muzzle flashes and incessant hammering of the shells that you hit what you wanted to better than they did, or fall first in what is strictly a DPS race and not a test of skill.

Best case scenario, you win but your mech is totaled. Worst case scenario you lose and the enemy mech is totaled. Wasteful.

Alternatively, with our method:

Enemy mech is a dakka configuration. Your mech is relatively fast and packing ERLLas or ERPPC or Gauss. Instead of playing the DPS race game, you approach to a good firing range for your weapon systems, and then, moving from hill to hill, you laterally open fire on the Dakka platform, clustering your shots in a specific location on the enemy mech while preventing easy or extended track for the Dakka mech. You expose yourself to fire long enough to put your shot exactly where you want it, negating the DPS approach the Dakka mech is utilizing. You limit the damage to your mech as a function of that. You maximize the impact of precise hits as the longer you fight the more the DPS oriented mech has a better chance to get lucky, plus you do less overall harm to the targeted mech.

Pilot skill and waste limitation achieved.

Edit:

Did not Phellan Ward utilize terrain strategically during his trials? One incident pops to mind, when he fought an Aerospace fighter. Strict adherence to Zell would leave him in the open. Instead, he located a narrow ravine in which the ASF would have fixed approach paths through and used it to funnel his opponent into a predictable kill zone.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 29 December 2013 - 03:58 PM.

[Lucky Moniker]

Yeah, again I am not saying you are wrong, I'm simply saying in our trials I have good fun with classic Zell, in a larger sense yes what are talking about does matter, there are also lots other examples where the clans take cover while fighting one another, it is far from unheard up, but in our small trials, the circle of equals is pretty small by comparison

Edited by Lucky Moniker, 29 December 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 December 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Did not Phellan Ward utilize terrain strategically during his trials? One incident pops to mind, when he fought an Aerospace fighter. Strict adherence to Zell would leave him in the open. Instead, he located a narrow ravine in which the ASF would have fixed approach paths through and used it to funnel his opponent into a predictable kill zone.

Sure i remember it, it was Lost Destiny, one of his Bloodright duels.
I have not often found myself in that kind of situation in MW:LL but you have a point here. Wolves are also said to have a liberal approach to Zell.

Lucky Moniker, on 29 December 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

Yeah, again I am not saying you are wrong, I'm simply saying in our trials I have good fun with classic Zell, in a larger sense yes what are talking about does matter, there are also lots other examples where the clans take cover while fighting one another, it is farm from unheard up, but in our small trials, the circle of equals is pretty small by comparison

And this is why i always wwanted larger Circles of Equals for our Trials so different tactics (long range weapons and LRMs) could be viable.

[Lucian Nostra]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 December 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

With respect, it is a problem. Zellbrigen was created with four goals in mind; Limit waste, test skill, reduce collateral damage, and solve problems quickly. Zellbrigen, if stuck to closely to the high end of the written rules fails to succeed on points one and two.

You can armor roll, but then you cannot shoot back as you do so. Your enemy can just keep wailing on you as you armor roll with his autocannons as you have no option to duck behind cover. If you shot first, invert that. Alternatively, you both line up the center of the red square, pull the trigger, and hope that between the mutually blinding muzzle flashes and incessant hammering of the shells that you hit what you wanted to better than they did, or fall first in what is strictly a DPS race and not a test of skill.

Best case scenario, you win but your mech is totaled. Worst case scenario you lose and the enemy mech is totaled. Wasteful.

Alternatively, with our method:

Enemy mech is a dakka configuration. Your mech is relatively fast and packing ERLLas or ERPPC or Gauss. Instead of playing the DPS race game, you approach to a good firing range for your weapon systems, and then, moving from hill to hill, you laterally open fire on the Dakka platform, clustering your shots in a specific location on the enemy mech while preventing easy or extended track for the Dakka mech. You expose yourself to fire long enough to put your shot exactly where you want it, negating the DPS approach the Dakka mech is utilizing. You limit the damage to your mech as a function of that. You maximize the impact of precise hits as the longer you fight the more the DPS oriented mech has a better chance to get lucky, plus you do less overall harm to the targeted mech.

Pilot skill and waste limitation achieved.

Edit:

Did not Phellan Ward utilize terrain strategically during his trials? One incident pops to mind, when he fought an Aerospace fighter. Strict adherence to Zell would leave him in the open. Instead, he located a narrow ravine in which the ASF would have fixed approach paths through and used it to funnel his opponent into a predictable kill zone.

I dunno Pariah I am just hearing excuses as to why you do not want to go toe to toe with my Sexta-UAC/5 Dire Wolf...

[Pariah Devalis]

As soon as I have my instagib Warhawk C everything is in the air.

[Will9761]

Now that you have the new 58th Strike Cluster page in the works, what will happen to the old Dragoncat site? Are you going to shut it down, keep it, or just give it to someone else?

[Pariah Devalis]

Porting over some assets like the rank page and images but then sending it off to fiery oblivion. Or... Limbo. I still rarely get alerts that people are trying to join the Dragoncats. Will probably disable somethings and make a clear announcement on the home page to redirect visitors.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 30 December 2013 - 01:10 PM.

[Dakkaface]

Pariah Devalis, on 30 December 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Porting over some assets like the rank page and images but then sending it off to fiery oblivion. Or... Limbo. I still rarely get alerts that people are trying to join the Dragoncats. Will probably disable somethings and make a clear announcement on the home page to redirect visitors.

Might be nice to put something up in the forums - I didn't know CNC had mostly moved onto a new unit until I saw this post here - and I'm rarely on the official forums.

[Pariah Devalis]

Yeah, did that just about 45 minutes ago. Big ATTENTION post on the main page. Have not seen you online, Dakka. Fell off the face of the earth?

[Dakkaface]

Pariah Devalis, on 30 December 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Yeah, did that just about 45 minutes ago. Big ATTENTION post on the main page. Have not seen you online, Dakka. Fell off the face of the earth?

Had my firstborn child a month ago, and I bought a house and moved in the month before that, so I've been pretty busy IRL.

[Pariah Devalis]

Awesome man! Great to hear! Congrats!

[CyclonerM]

I hear that a new freeborn warriors is rising to help Clan Nova Cat in its quest for the stars!

[Pariah Devalis]

A Timber Wolf Prime belonging to the Nova Cat's 58th Strike Cluster of Alpha Galaxy, the Claws of Clarity, as piloted by a Star Commander.

Credit goes to iqfishlp for the template on Pirahna Game's art asset.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 31 December 2013 - 02:03 PM.

[pbiggz]

Ya caught me!

I just wanted to check out what you had going on there. You seem to be doing well .

[Pariah Devalis]

Ground work is coming along. We need to inject a solid dose of "clan" into the Cluster, though. Structure and methodology wise. Most of us are, I think, desiring everything clan we can do without driving ourselves insane. Some differences from textbook clanner concepts might be done, however. One idea I am looking at is how to limit potential disaster from the normal open season on Trials. If you have incredible piloting skill but the tactical genius of a surrat you can, by the book, challenge a superior officer and take his place. Inserting the need to get someone to second your challenge may be required to avoid such stupidity.

If or when I can get this idea pushed into reality then we can be free to introduce all the various trials that come with being a Clan, like Trials of Position, Refusal, Grievance (although I suppose in this case it would not require a second), and Bloodright. For better or worse, the individual who decided to recollect the Nova Cats of the former Dragon Cat Cluster is of IRL military background and hates the idea of just being able to override and disrespect the established chain of command. A proper clan meeting and discussion needs to take place, however, and understandably many of the 58th are not available tonight.

Actually setting up trials is another headache we need to sort out, though I understand that the Ghost Bears are willing to lend a hand, as would the Wolves I hope.

Another thing I need to get done is to get the bulk of the 58th to actually check, respond on, and post on the forums. That may be the single hardest task ahead of us in the short term. :\

This is the sort of hell we need to go through given there are no legacy Clan Nova Cats floating around. They are all gone with history. Forces us to build everything from the ground up without any established roots or structure. In short, it is a tremendous headache.

Edit:

Either that, or get some stravag help. I am doing an awful lot of legwork right now, and I am not even the Star Colonel.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 31 December 2013 - 03:27 PM.

[Tyberion]