147 replies to this topic

[xXBagheeraXx]

Cimarb, on 05 July 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

I am a heavy+ pilot myself, and while I have mastered many lights chassis and a few medium chassis, I will probably always be a heavy+ pilot.

I understand that not everyone is like me, though, so I want light pilots to be rewarded for what they are SUPPOSED to be doing, which is NOT brawling. I want them scouting for my heavy+, capping while I keep the enemy forces busy, and sneaking around enemy lines harassing the enemy when they have nothing else to do. None of those jobs currently provides them even a fraction of the points/money they get from brawling currently.

For mediums, they should primarily be providing the same roles as lights, but with a little more skirmishing and a little less capping.

Also, while I prefer to fight in heavy+, I will pilot lights much more when we get truly rewarded for capping and scouting. I would love to bring my Locusts back out at that time.

But what scares me about this would be them doing some unnecessary buff to all lights that make them ungodly hard to kill or some bs, Or overdo the rewards so that the matches are filled with 10 lights. I dont pack streaks that often anymore...

[Cimarb]

xXBagheeraXx, on 05 July 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

But what scares me about this would be them doing some unnecessary buff to all lights that make them ungodly hard to kill or some bs, Or overdo the rewards so that the matches are filled with 10 lights. I dont pack streaks that often anymore...

But either of those situations revolve around Lights still be combat-focused. It should not matter how hard they are to kill, because they should not be getting into combat nearly as much as they are. Ideally, they should really only be fighting other lights that are also capping/scouting.

[Adiuvo]

Cimarb, on 05 July 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

But either of those situations revolve around Lights still be combat-focused. It should not matter how hard they are to kill, because they should not be getting into combat nearly as much as they are. Ideally, they should really only be fighting other lights that are also capping/scouting.

These maps aren't big enough to make lights anything but combat focused. There is basically no scouting in this game.

People play this game to shoot other mechs anyways. If you reduce an entire class down to PvE stuff like sitting on a cap point all day long I doubt anyone will play them.

Ideally, lights are the mechs that pick off crap that's out of position. Only in close range, a heavy/assault can still maneuver well enough that a light mech holds no threat even if they're far away from their team.

Edited by Adiuvo, 05 July 2014 - 12:16 PM.

[RAM]

Cimarb, on 05 July 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

Have fun with MW4. I will have fun with this, which is much more "Mechwarrior" than any game that has ever been done before, and is getting better every patch now.

MechWarrior was more MechWarrior than this. MW3 was probably more MechWarrior and I is arguable that MW2 might be as well.

All the Multiplayer Battletech Games (EGA/Solaris/3025) were more MechWarrior than this. Finally the Virtual World systems were definitely more MechWarrior than this.

Really MWO is only doing well in comparison to MW4 & Mech Assault. That does not mean MWO is not great; merely that it still has considerable room for improvement. Here is hoping they keep up he good work!


RAM
ELH

[Bobby Blast]

So give C-bill bonuses for piloting the least played mechs. Pay me more and I will play it more. simple.

[Vassago Rain]

Bobby Blast, on 05 July 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

So give C-bill bonuses for piloting the least played mechs. Pay me more and I will play it more. simple.

A 25% increase of 0 is still 0.

Lights with an income bonus aren't gonna actually make significantly more money.

[Cimarb]

Adiuvo, on 05 July 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

These maps aren't big enough to make lights anything but combat focused. There is basically no scouting in this game.

People play this game to shoot other mechs anyways. If you reduce an entire class down to PvE stuff like sitting on a cap point all day long I doubt anyone will play them.

Ideally, lights are the mechs that pick off crap that's out of position. Only in close range, a heavy/assault can still maneuver well enough that a light mech holds no threat even if they're far away from their team.

Some maps are large enough that you can go the entire match without seeing another mech. I have played several "ring around the rosey" matches like that, actually. Alpine can be like that, Modor can be like that, etc.

Scavenging is definitely something a light pack can do, or even an amazing solo light like yourself can do, but it should not be their role in MOST matches.

When I play lights, I prefer to cap and scout. My Locust SHOULD be perfect for that, but there is almost zero reward for that currently, so I very rarely play lights because of that.

RAM, on 05 July 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

MechWarrior was more MechWarrior than this. MW3 was probably more MechWarrior and I is arguable that MW2 might be as well.

All the Multiplayer Battletech Games (EGA/Solaris/3025) were more MechWarrior than this. Finally the Virtual World systems were definitely more MechWarrior than this.

Really MWO is only doing well in comparison to MW4 & Mech Assault. That does not mean MWO is not great; merely that it still has considerable room for improvement. Here is hoping they keep up he good work!

RAM
ELH

We have a very different view of MechWarrior. The only one I agree with is the Virtual World systems, and that is solely because of the whole physical experience involved in it. The actual GAME, though, was little more than a very early version of what we currently have in MWO: deathmatch upon deathmatch. The difference is Virtual World matches were very, very quick in comparison, even though you would respawn several times during the match.

Vassago Rain, on 05 July 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

A 25% increase of 0 is still 0.

Lights with an income bonus aren't gonna actually make significantly more money.

Exactly.

For example, the current reward for capping a base is a static 50XP. You can multiply that tenfold and it would still not be worth it. Make it 50XP per second you cap the base, though, and now you have a decent reward for your Role. In addition, it is a reward that anyone can earn, but by the capabilities of the different weight classes it actually encourages fast mechs to do it, since they can easily accumulate far more capping rewards due to their speed (less time spent traveling between points).

[Sandpit]

Cimarb, on 05 July 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

I completely disagree with you, which is probably why PGI is having such a hard time with this.

For instance, I want an opt-in so I can solo drop in the group queue, which is the antithesis of your #1.

PGI did give us a launcher that allows any type of drop we want, and I think it is perfectly reasonable to require ONE person out of 24 to be at least minimally vested in the game, or two if you want to use the server resources for duelling.

#3/4 are really not even worth addressing. It is humorous you even split them apart, as they are both trying to defend your point by insulting whoever may respond.


I would not say it completely defeated the purpose, but it did prove what we were saying quite well, so I have been hounding Russ about Role Warfare Rewards since it was released.

Sometimes, you have to let them do it their way so you can say, "see what I was talking about now?"

I would assume that if their data showed otherwise they would have used a different example screenshot. That is the issue with analytics to begin with: it is VERY easy to manipulate them to show what you want them to show.

Unfortunately, I think the issue here is more in regards to an overabundance of averaging. Like I mentioned about the variance, if you average averages, you will obviously get an even MORE average. If that is your goal, then it will succeed, but it does not make for balanced matches.

I agree.
Ever since they released their "84%" data and how they collected it, I've come to one of two conclusions

Either they're
A.) not real good at understanding how to collect data, sampling, statistics, etc. which means their data is skewed at best and just flat out completely at worst

or
B.) They are trying to make the data fit into their plans and vision which is actually worse than above because it means they're disregarding contradictory data.

Either way, they need to step back for a minute and be a little more impartial in their data collection. I'm hoping that the recent inclusion of groups is a step in the right direction and that they're now "conceding" that they may not have been as right as they thought they were.

Regardless I'm still too cynical to give them the benefit of the doubt yet. After 2 years of watching, reading, playing, and otherwise being involved in this game I have decided that I won't spend any more money on the game until AFTER stuff I want is implemented. I won't buy into the whole "soon" and "temporary" thing anymore because I've seen too many "position at the time" stuff.

With that said, I hope they eventually dispel my cynicism so I can feel more comfortable handing them money.

[Appogee]

I played in a largish group for the past two nights.

We stomped a few matches, got stomped in a few matches, and won and lost some good close matches.

It was so good not having to keep rejuggling team mates into new groups of 3 or 4, and then trying to sync drop (against) each other.

I haven't soloed since the new MM came in, so I have no idea how that's working out. But frankly, it can't be any worse that it was.

[Sandpit]

Cimarb, on 05 July 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

But either of those situations revolve around Lights still be combat-focused. It should not matter how hard they are to kill, because they should not be getting into combat nearly as much as they are. Ideally, they should really only be fighting other lights that are also capping/scouting.

Exactly

Lights should have objectives or rewards that they can obtain that do not involve combat at all. That's the whole point I think.

You can increase the rewards 1.5 across the board for all lights and yes, you will see more lights, you won't, however, see more of the unpopular mechs.

I think is talking about more variety in general, not just weight classes. That was the entire problem behind the rule of 3 in the first place. It's not thinking far enough ahead and is very limited in its scope. All it tries to do is ensure more of a weight class, not more variety in general. Even with that, you're still not seeing it because players who don't like lights aren't going to magically decide to jump in a light just because pgi says they have to. They'll either wait longer in queues or they'll go play something else.
This is exactly why restrictions hurt more than they help, especially in the long run. The casual players (remember those guys? that's PGI's new target demo right?) is not going to sit here and play in a mech they don't enjoy or wait long periods of time to find a game. This is especially true for F2P since there's no money barrier. It's nothing for a casual player who has nothing invested in this game other than a little time to move on to something else.

This game is going to ahve to get a lot deeper in general. The "esports" crowd is not going to support and fun this game. It's not big enough. Sure they'll drop money but that's 1% of the population here. It simply cannot fund this game on its own.

Casual players aren't going to invest much money as is because of the repetitive gameplay

The "old" demographic has largely abandoned or stopped supporting this game until they see advancement as well.

Essentially this all means that PGI had best get off their butts and start putting out content other than mechs and maps if they want this game to be a big success.

[xe N on]

Cimarb, on 05 July 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

Some maps are large enough that you can go the entire match without seeing another mech. I have played several "ring around the rosey" matches like that, actually. Alpine can be like that, Modor can be like that, etc.

Scouting for a light mech means an enormous risk, because if you can lock the enemy, the enemy can lock you as well. And even if you don't get locked, an well aimed shot from ERPPCs and Gauss and you are toast. Additionally, in PUG play you cannot communciate with your group efficiently anyway.

Currently, capping is highly risky too. Because even with capture accelerator the time to capture a point is long enough that any fast medium or heavy (and with the clans we have alot of them) have a good chance to arrive before the point is finally captured.

It would be nice to have real missions with larger maps. Missions in that you have to split your forces to be successfull. Missions where a light's task could be to destroy the enemy's artillery, cut the enemy's power supply or sabotage the sensor grid.

However, I don't see any realistic chance to see that on this game.

Edited by xe N on, 05 July 2014 - 02:09 PM.

[Davers]

As for role warfare and different reward systems:

It's fun to fight. People want to fight, lights and mediums
Included. They want to contribute to the win in a fun way,
Not a 'sit in the box' way. It doesn't matter if doing that
Pays a lot more. It just isn't fun.

If capping rewards and scouting rewards were increased
I would still be uninterested in doing those things. I put weapons
On those mechs and I want to use them. I don't want to be
The 'clean up guy' either. That just means I have to wait
To find out if the assaults and heavies already won the match
Before I can participate.

[ztac]

Matchmaker , well that's what PGI call it , But is it really a matchmaker?
In short , no and far from it! (but then it's never been that great).

Whilst they try to balance mech weights this does not solve the problem of how people fit mechs out and what any class brings to the battle is not necessarily the same as it's opposite number. So in essence although the same weight not the same damage output or capabilities.(not to mention the mix of LRM,ECM,AMS and other specialist mechs not being balanced either).

And we all know that player ELO does not come into it either with high end players in the same matches as low ends.

Then we have the way the groups are put together which seems dubious at best.(different sizes).

Then small groups in the PUG (solo) queue , good for the group bad for the solo players.

The above are just a few areas where the MM falls flat on it's face.

[Cimarb]

Sandpit, on 05 July 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

Essentially this all means that PGI had best get off their butts and start putting out content other than mechs and maps if they want this game to be a big success.

I completely agree with you, with the one exception that I think they DID finally get off their butts when UI2.0 came out and, though struggling out the gate, has started really pushing things in the right direction.

xe N on, on 05 July 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

Scouting for a light mech means an enormous risk, because if you can lock the enemy, the enemy can lock you as well. And even if you don't get locked, an well aimed shot from ERPPCs and Gauss and you are toast. Additionally, in PUG play you cannot communciate with your group efficiently anyway.

Currently, capping is highly risky too. Because even with capture accelerator the time to capture a point is long enough that any fast medium or heavy (and with the clans we have alot of them) have a good chance to arrive before the point is finally captured.

It would be nice to have real missions with larger maps. Missions in that you have to split your forces to be successfull. Missions where a light's task could be to destroy the enemy's artillery, cut the enemy's power supply or sabotage the sensor grid.

However, I don't see any realistic chance to see that on this game.

Scouting IS an enormous risk, yes, and currently has little to no benefit, which is why so few players do it. Same with capping.

Regardless of that risk, even now there are some very good players that do an amazing job scouting and get decent rewards with the increased spotting bonuses. For example, I had a PUG match one time on Caustic Valley in my Stalker (LRM boat). The enemy had the refinery side and were on the water side. An ECM Raven on our team worked his way around to the water and sat there the entire match spotting for us. He racked up TONS of spotting assists as myself and a few other LRM boats sat back and decimated the enemy team. They had no clue he was there until about the fourth mech went down, and then spent so much time trying to kill him that we defeated them without a single death. A good spotter can make a world of difference!

I completely agree about having multi-task missions and maps that make use of that. If you check "The Plan", they do have a lot more of it planned out and it sounds really good, IMO.

[Johnny Z]

Two words to help even out the match maker weight classes, you guessed it, "repair and rearm".

I can already hear the whine of assault pilots in the distance.

[R Razor]

Davers, on 05 July 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

As for role warfare and different reward systems:

It's fun to fight. People want to fight, lights and mediums
Included. They want to contribute to the win in a fun way,
Not a 'sit in the box' way. It doesn't matter if doing that
Pays a lot more. It just isn't fun.

If capping rewards and scouting rewards were increased
I would still be uninterested in doing those things. I put weapons
On those mechs and I want to use them. I don't want to be
The 'clean up guy' either. That just means I have to wait
To find out if the assaults and heavies already won the match
Before I can participate.

TL:DR You lack the skills to play the game in anything that doesn't have a lag shield or borked hit boxes?


If you want to fight only, use a mech that was traditionally designed for fighting, Heavy or Assault........allow lights to fulfill the role they should be fulfilling which is scouting and support functions. Folks like you are precisely the reason PGI has proven to be unable to implement any sort of meaningful role warfare since you'll just come whining about how now you can't use your lights to face off against the enemy battle line anymore.

[Cimarb]

Davers, on 05 July 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

As for role warfare and different reward systems:

It's fun to fight. People want to fight, lights and mediums Included. They want to contribute to the win in a fun way, Not a 'sit in the box' way. It doesn't matter if doing that Pays a lot more. It just isn't fun.

If capping rewards and scouting rewards were increased I would still be uninterested in doing those things. I put weapons On those mechs and I want to use them. I don't want to be The 'clean up guy' either. That just means I have to wait To find out if the assaults and heavies already won the match Before I can participate.

I appreciate that outlook. I am not trying to nerf lights or remove their ability to fight, but currently that is the only role that IS rewarded. I just want to get OTHER roles rewarded.

If I get my way, it will have absolutely no affect on your playstyle, as it is rewarding something that you will not be doing regardless.

[Devlin Pierce]

I play a lot of support when I run my lights (Kit Fox mainly). One thing I notice is the lack of recognition we get on the scoreboard. No matter how tame your ego is, everyone wants to be recognized for their contribution.

Mechs that give up firepower for Narcs, AMS, ECM, Tag should be rewarded more then they currently are, and it should be more visible on the scoreboard.

I doubt this will fix the problem entirely, because in the end a large amount of players want to blow **** up and feel the dakka as they tear apart the enemy. It takes a special kind of player to be satisfied with supporting role.

Edited by Devlin Pierce, 05 July 2014 - 02:54 PM.

[Cimarb]

Devlin Pierce, on 05 July 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

I play a lot of support when I run my lights (Kit Fox mainly). One thing I notice is the lack of recognition we get on the scoreboard. No matter how tame your ego is, everyone wants to be recognized for their contribution.

Mechs that give up firepower for Narcs, AMS, ECM, Tag ECM should be rewarded more then they currently are, and it should be more visible on the scoreboard.

I doubt this will fix the problem entirely, because in the end a large amount of players want to blow **** up and feel the dakka as they tear apart the enemy. It takes a special kind of player to be satisfied with supporting role.

Exactly.

[Davers]

R Razor, on 05 July 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

TL:DR You lack the skills to play the game in anything that doesn't have a lag shield or borked hit boxes?


If you want to fight only, use a mech that was traditionally designed for fighting, Heavy or Assault........allow lights to fulfill the role they should be fulfilling which is scouting and support functions. Folks like you are precisely the reason PGI has proven to be unable to implement any sort of meaningful role warfare since you'll just come whining about how now you can't use your lights to face off against the enemy battle line anymore.

Well if we are doing personal attacks today, when you get better you will find
Lights aren't very hard to hit.

PGI has to make scouting and support functions as much fun
As fighting or no one will want to do them. I am sure you would have no complaints if light and medium mechs
Were removed from the game so the 'real mechs' can fight.