147 replies to this topic

[R Razor]

Davers, on 05 July 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

Well if we are doing personal attacks today, when you get better you will find
Lights aren't very hard to hit.

PGI has to make scouting and support functions as much fun
As fighting or no one will want to do them. I am sure you would have no complaints if light and medium mechs
Were removed from the game so the 'real mechs' can fight.

I have 4 times as many drops in my lights as I do in my Heavy or Assault mechs so you'll have to try again on that point amigo.

I also know that my light has no business trying to fight in the battle line, I am a support mech, I spot, I harass, I cap..........that is the role of a light. Maybe when YOU get better you'll find that Lights aren't supposed to be going toe to toe with the Heavies and Assaults.

[Kanghur]

I'm new to this game and started as light mech player with Ravens. First for light mech speed is basic stat.. and for my RVN-L3 top engine is over 4.800.000. Yep great start to get ppl to play this class when in this price range i can buy Heavy mech and just brain less spam my mouse buttons. Second spotting targets.. everyone have Radar Deprivation so **** you spotters. So i tried NARC... 40% of missiles just don't register hit and when I tag with NARC my target got destroyed from 100% to 40% and I only got single bonus from this...Only thing that get me some xp/c-bills is Tag-laser but still you get ****** if you are using this 'cos you are instant lighted for enemy so i just last seconds use it for nice bonuses...and i don't think this should be working like this. So why should i play my light that can go 98kp/h when assault mechs can run around 80kp/h and i can't over run they torso+turn speed.
Edit: and now i was tagging last mech on enemy team and my tag wasn't registeing. There was earlier alot other not register tags but i was always unsure- but this tame this was mech without any ecm or other counters and he was 150 m away... just so much fail for light mech payers :/

Edited by Kanghur, 05 July 2014 - 04:34 PM.

[Davers]

R Razor, on 05 July 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:

I have 4 times as many drops in my lights as I do in my Heavy or Assault mechs so you'll have to try again on that point amigo.

I also know that my light has no business trying to fight in the battle line, I am a support mech, I spot, I harass, I cap..........that is the role of a light. Maybe when YOU get better you'll find that Lights aren't supposed to be going toe to toe with the Heavies and Assaults.

Unfortunately they have to since heavies and assaults represent 60+ percent of every drop.

As a light pilot, you would actually want to play a non combat role? You would want to be helpless against heavier mechs, knowing that over 75% of the other team is heavier than you?

Where do you get the idea that lights aren't supposed to fight heavy and assault mechs? Is that from the same game that says assault mechs are rare? That medium mechs are the most common chassis?
This game has never promoted the use of lights and
Mediums and the MM clearly shows the results of that.

[Scratx]

Johnny Z, on 05 July 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

Two words to help even out the match maker weight classes, you guessed it, "repair and rearm".

I can already hear the whine of assault pilots in the distance.

Yes, that should totally help get all the XL engined light mechs into play. /sarcasm

[Devlin Pierce]

Kanghur, on 05 July 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

I'm new to this game and started as light mech player with Ravens. First for light mech speed is basic stat.. and for my RVN-L3 top engine is over 4.800.000. Yep great start to get ppl to play this class when in this price range i can buy Heavy mech and just brain less spam my mouse buttons. Second spotting targets.. everyone have Radar Deprivation so **** you spotters. So i tried NARC... 40% of missiles just don't register hit and when I tag with NARC my target got destroyed from 100% to 40% and I only got single bonus from this...Only thing that get me some xp/c-bills is Tag-laser but still you get ****** if you are using this 'cos you are instant lighted for enemy so i just last seconds use it for nice bonuses...and i don't think this should be working like this. So why should i play my light that can go 98kp/h when assault mechs can run around 80kp/h and i can't over run they torso+turn speed.

Remember tagging an enemy that is generating the ECM protection shuts down their ECM for 30 seconds (Someone correct me if I'm wrong about the timer).

So part of the skill of using narc properly is to identify these ECM mechs and shut them down, then you can start Narcing other targets under their protection and bring the rain.

I also agree that you should get significantly more bonuses for pulling actions like this off in games.

Edited by Devlin Pierce, 05 July 2014 - 04:25 PM.

[Macksheen]

Well, the light thing isn't a problem with lights as a whole being bad - I think it's more due to the updates in the falling / running-over-terrain-and-losing-a-leg issue going on right now.

Still, interesting to see!

[Chemistry Warden]

Devlin Pierce, on 05 July 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Remember narcing an enemy that is generating the ECM protection shuts down their ECM for 30 seconds (Someone correct me if I'm wrong about the timer).

So part of the skill of using narc properly is to identify these ECM mechs and shut them down, then you can start Narcing other targets under their protection and bring the rain.

I also agree that you should get significantly more bonuses for pulling actions like this off in games.

Tag shuts down ecm as long as you hold it, narc shuts it down for about 30 sec, as you state.

The issue with narcing an ecm mech is narc does not receive the C-ECM bonus that BAP and ECM receive. Considering how useful narcing an ECM mech is, it should be encouraged by the reward system. Another issue with narc is that the tag/narc bonus is only received once per mech, unlike normal spotting bonuses which can be earned once per mech that targets and attacks the spotted mech.

[Kanghur]

Devlin Pierce, on 05 July 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Remember tagging an enemy that is generating the ECM protection shuts down their ECM for 30 seconds (Someone correct me if I'm wrong about the timer).

So part of the skill of using narc properly is to identify these ECM mechs and shut them down, then you can start Narcing other targets under their protection and bring the rain.

I also agree that you should get significantly more bonuses for pulling actions like this off in games.

Tagging with laser only remove ecm from single target - ecm aoe is still in effect even when your target is ecm carrier. NARC missile is working similar like this only it isn't line of sign dependant. At least from my experience but i can be wrong on this one.

Edited by Kanghur, 05 July 2014 - 04:42 PM.

[Jack Corban]

Can we have Battlevalue now ?

Edited by Jack Corban, 05 July 2014 - 04:45 PM.

[Davers]

Jack Corban, on 05 July 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

Can we have Battlevalue now ?

BV doesn't work in MW:O. Look at LRMS. Against bad players
They are very strong, but against good players they are
Almost useless. They have several counters in equipment
And modules, and several equipment and modules buff them.
LRM5s can core a mech just as good, if not better than an
LRM20. In TT they are just as easy to hit with as lasers, easier even
Because of better range, yet "good hit percentages" are around 50%while most other weapons have higher values.

So what would their value be?

[Kanghur]

Davers, on 05 July 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

BV doesn't work in MW:O. Look at LRMS. Against bad players
They are very strong, but against good players they are
Almost useless. They have several counters in equipment
And modules, and several equipment and modules buff them.
LRM5s can core a mech just as good, if not better than an
LRM20. In TT they are just as easy to hit with as lasers, easier even
Because of better range, yet "good hit percentages" are around 50%while most other weapons have higher values.

So what would their value be?

From my experience if you are new player and don't have Radar Depravation on non city maps you need to be in very specific points on map so you can hide from missiles volleys or you will get destroyed - i was many times on steep mountain sides and still get hitted hard by missiles AoE. And try to be new player vs Target Decay...So as new player you need to give away fun of play by going into specific spots and as experienced player you just need to put 1 module to just insanely change game play and make your life so much easier and your game play so much fun/open. I'm missing something or this is huge design flaw.

[Davers]

Kanghur, on 05 July 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

From my experience if you are new player and don't have Radar Depravation on non city maps you need to be in very specific points on map so you can hide from missiles volleys or you will get destroyed - i was many times on steep mountain sides and still get hitted hard by missiles AoE. And try to be new player vs Target Decay...So as new player you need to give away fun of play by going into specific spots and as experienced player you just need to put 1 module to just insanely change game play and make your life so much easier and your game play so much fun/open. I'm missing something or this is huge design flaw.

Not even speaking as an LRM user, I think Radar Deprivation muddle
Was a bad idea.

Modules were supposed to be 'end game content' and this model
Is clearly designed for new players. Experienced players do not
Have problems with LRMS and in high levels if play it is rare to see even a single
LRM boat.

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 05 July 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

As for role warfare and different reward systems:

It's fun to fight. People want to fight, lights and mediums
Included. They want to contribute to the win in a fun way,
Not a 'sit in the box' way. It doesn't matter if doing that
Pays a lot more. It just isn't fun.

If capping rewards and scouting rewards were increased
I would still be uninterested in doing those things. I put weapons
On those mechs and I want to use them. I don't want to be
The 'clean up guy' either. That just means I have to wait
To find out if the assaults and heavies already won the match
Before I can participate.

exactly
but, you ahve to have a fairly even tonnage on the other team to be truly effective in the fight. Rule of 3, in theory, was supposed to solve that.

Many of us explained why it wouldn't solve that. It's not that it's a bad system, it's just a matter of simple fact that it, alone, cannot and will not fix those issues.

Jenners are a good example. They've been here since day 1 and are much more "fighty" than other lights. We are all over simplifying things a bit in this regard. Jenners carry enough armor, speed, and firepower to hold their own in many cases. So pilots wanting a "light fight" can go with mechs like that.

The locust? Not so much. It's not designed for any kind of standup fight. Adding objectives that have nothing to do with shooting other players is how PGI can start to add variety to the battlefield.
Many players mistake variety in the rule of 3 for diversification of force composition.
Rule of 3
3 jenners
3 hunchbacks
3 Cataphracts
3 Stalkers
Isn't "variety", it's the same kind of forces (insert whatever mechs are currently popular) that we've seen in masse since day 1.
Something OTHER than rule of 3 would encourage stuff like
1 Locust, 1 raven, 1 jenner
1 hunch, 1 kintaro, 1 trebuchet
1 jager, 1 orion, 1 dragon
1 stalker, 1 banshee, 1 atlas

because until there's something other than "stand on this point and/or shoot everyone else" to do, you're not going to see players take the less popular mechs because there's no point. There's zero point in not taking the biggest and best that you can in every weight class if the entire point of the game is to do nothing more than shoot the other guys and when you are already in long range and can see the enemy forces immediately after spawning, there's zero sense to take something like a locust for recon

Random spawn points
Objectives
Rewards for unpopular chassis (not weight class but specific mechs)
and more emphasis on tonnage instead of matching weight class will help

As it stands now, 3 locusts are equivalent to 3 jenners in the current MM. So, other than a player just simply wanting to which shows just exactly how often it happens now, why would anyone take that locust out?

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 05 July 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

BV doesn't work in MW:O. Look at LRMS. Against bad players
They are very strong, but against good players they are
Almost useless. They have several counters in equipment
And modules, and several equipment and modules buff them.
LRM5s can core a mech just as good, if not better than an
LRM20. In TT they are just as easy to hit with as lasers, easier even
Because of better range, yet "good hit percentages" are around 50%while most other weapons have higher values.

So what would their value be?

you could use a scaling model for BV though. We used to use it in our megamek campaigns. More popular and "effective" weapons would have their BV scaled up while lless popular and "effective" weapons would ahve theirs scaled down.

I don't think BV solves the issue though, I don't think any single mechanic will. You have to use a combination of metrics if you really want to increase balance and variety. That's been my biggest gripe about the whole rule of 3. It simply cannot and will not "fix" a lot of these things. I've never said rule of 3 was "bad", just that it's not going to be the savior that many were thinking it would be. Mostly because I know that, given all the customization and teams and such, there's no way one single mechanic is going to balance that

BV+3+tonnage+Elo = a much more balanced way approach. Using all of those in conjunction with one another would do much better than we have now. Throw in a few other ideas I've seen tossed around here on the forums and bam! Much more robust game in general

[Khobai]

We already knew forcing players into lights and mediums wasnt going to work. Nobody wants to play them. They suck (with a few notable exceptions).

The only way players will play lights and mediums is if theyre rewarded for it.

We need bigger rewards for:
1) capping
2) spotting and using tag/narc

Additionally we need a new game mode that requires both static defense and capturing points around the map. That way all four weight classes have something to do. Base assault and skirmish favor heavier mechs. Conquest favors lighter mechs. But theres no gamemode that requires both.

Edited by Khobai, 05 July 2014 - 05:54 PM.

[Davers]

Sandpit, on 05 July 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

exactly
but, you ahve to have a fairly even tonnage on the other team to be truly effective in the fight. Rule of 3, in theory, was supposed to solve that.

Many of us explained why it wouldn't solve that. It's not that it's a bad system, it's just a matter of simple fact that it, alone, cannot and will not fix those issues.

Jenners are a good example. They've been here since day 1 and are much more "fighty" than other lights. We are all over simplifying things a bit in this regard. Jenners carry enough armor, speed, and firepower to hold their own in many cases. So pilots wanting a "light fight" can go with mechs like that.

The locust? Not so much. It's not designed for any kind of standup fight. Adding objectives that have nothing to do with shooting other players is how PGI can start to add variety to the battlefield.
Many players mistake variety in the rule of 3 for diversification of force composition.
Rule of 3
3 jenners
3 hunchbacks
3 Cataphracts
3 Stalkers
Isn't "variety", it's the same kind of forces (insert whatever mechs are currently popular) that we've seen in masse since day 1.
Something OTHER than rule of 3 would encourage stuff like
1 Locust, 1 raven, 1 jenner
1 hunch, 1 kintaro, 1 trebuchet
1 jager, 1 orion, 1 dragon
1 stalker, 1 banshee, 1 atlas

because until there's something other than "stand on this point and/or shoot everyone else" to do, you're not going to see players take the less popular mechs because there's no point. There's zero point in not taking the biggest and best that you can in every weight class if the entire point of the game is to do nothing more than shoot the other guys and when you are already in long range and can see the enemy forces immediately after spawning, there's zero sense to take something like a locust for recon

Random spawn points
Objectives
Rewards for unpopular chassis (not weight class but specific mechs)
and more emphasis on tonnage instead of matching weight class will help

As it stands now, 3 locusts are equivalent to 3 jenners in the current MM. So, other than a player just simply wanting to which shows just exactly how often it happens now, why would anyone take that locust out?

Tonnage doesn't work. For tonnage to matter the Atlas and Durewolf
MUST be the best mechs in the game. Dragons have to be better than Shadowhawks. Cataphracts must be worse than Awesomes.

The locust will always be in a bad place due to customization,
And lack of infantry. If the best it can hope for is some
Secondary objective that no one wants to waste a Jenner
On, then how crucial is that objective anyway? Might as well just be standing on a base hoping your team wins the brawl. :/

[Sandpit]

Khobai, on 05 July 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

We already knew forcing players into lights and mediums wasnt going to work. Nobody wants to play them. They suck.
.

that's a matter of opinion. Some of my favorite builds have been mediums and lights. They don't "suck", there's just not much call for them in this game. There's not a lot of use and function for them if you want to do something tactical besides shoot an enemy mech.
spotting and targeting and narcing have nothing to do with weight class. I can take a Dragon and do all of that at high speeds.

We need class specific rewards.

I agree with a new game mode (or 4) that has objectives that require high speed and low profile to complete. Bigger maps would also encourage this because even if you can use an assault or heavy to complete the objective, if you have multiple areas on a big map that you have to move to, speed and mobility are going to prevent those big plodding mechs from winning. Thus you get people WANTING to take those lights out so they can feel like they're contributing to the game.

As it stands now, many don't want to use lights not because they "suck" but because they get bored if all they're doing is sitting in one location capping and/or hitting the r button, then running off to the next spot to repeat the process.

Davers, on 05 July 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

Tonnage doesn't work. For tonnage to matter the Atlas and Durewolf
MUST be the best mechs in the game. Dragons have to be better than Shadowhawks. Cataphracts must be worse than Awesomes.

The locust will always be in a bad place due to customization,
And lack of infantry. If the best it can hope for is some
Secondary objective that no one wants to waste a Jenner
On, then how crucial is that objective anyway? Might as well just be standing on a base hoping your team wins the brawl. :/

Nope tonnage wouldn't work
neither would BV
3/3/3/3
Elo
etc.

No singular mechanic is going to. That's why it requires a combination of things like this to achieve a better balance and variety overall. That's my whole point, no single thing I listed above is going to work independently. Combining all of those things, adding in objectives, and a few other ideas that have been mentioned would help a lot.

[Cimarb]

Davers, on 05 July 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

Unfortunately they have to since heavies and assaults represent 60+ percent of every drop.

You may not have understood the point. Giving Role Warfare rewards, such as spotting and capping, is made to incentivize lighter mechs, helping to balance out the weight classes. We need to reward mechs for the roles they are designed, and therefore inherently better at, so that people will play the roles they WANT to play, instead of the only ones that they get rewarded for, which are combat roles (which heavy+ is designed for).

Devlin Pierce, on 05 July 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Remember tagging an enemy that is generating the ECM protection shuts down their ECM for 30 seconds (Someone correct me if I'm wrong about the timer).

So part of the skill of using narc properly is to identify these ECM mechs and shut them down, then you can start Narcing other targets under their protection and bring the rain.

I also agree that you should get significantly more bonuses for pulling actions like this off in games.

I think you are mixing them up. Tagging is actually using TAG (the laser pointer), which as has already been pointed out only lasts as long as you hold it on the target mech, while NARC'ing is using NARC, which lasts 30 seconds without module buffs and "bursts the bubble" of a single ECM.

Davers, on 05 July 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

BV doesn't work in MW:O. Look at LRMS. Against bad players They are very strong, but against good players they are Almost useless. They have several counters in equipment And modules, and several equipment and modules buff them.

LRM5s can core a mech just as good, if not better than an LRM20. In TT they are just as easy to hit with as lasers, easier even Because of better range, yet "good hit percentages" are around 50%while most other weapons have higher values.

So what would their value be?

Read up about BV. It valuates a weapon based upon the heat, damage, cooldown, tonnage and other factors. Popularity does not matter directly, though they are related.

You also do not have a very good grasp of TT, as LRMs may hit just as easily as lasers, but you then have to role for how MANY hit, which reduces their effectiveness compared to lasers. They are a bit more equalized in MWO, as they both spread their damage (LRMs by area and lasers by duration).

Khobai, on 05 July 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

We already knew forcing players into lights and mediums wasnt going to work. Nobody wants to play them. They suck.

The only way players will play lights and mediums is if theyre rewarded for it.

We need bigger rewards for:
1) capping
2) spotting and using tag/narc

Additionally we need a new game mode that requires both static defense and capturing points around the map. That way all four weight classes have something to do.

Exactly. "Bigger rewards" is not enough, though. It has to be a time investment reward. The longer you cap the point, the more points you get. The longer you spot a particular mech, the more points you get (giving "damage assist" is a good way to do this, as the spotting mech would get a partial cbill reward for the damage the ally gave, instead of just how much damage they did themselves).

[Cimarb]

Davers, on 05 July 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

Tonnage doesn't work. For tonnage to matter the Atlas and Durewolf
MUST be the best mechs in the game. Dragons have to be better than Shadowhawks. Cataphracts must be worse than Awesomes.

The locust will always be in a bad place due to customization,
And lack of infantry. If the best it can hope for is some
Secondary objective that no one wants to waste a Jenner
On, then how crucial is that objective anyway? Might as well just be standing on a base hoping your team wins the brawl. :/

You completely missed the point of Sandpit's post.

The Locust SHOULD be good for capping (since it is the fastest mech in the game) and spotting (since it is fast and very small). The Jenner, on the other hand, is built for capping and skirmishing, since it has better weapon hardpoints and more armor than the Locust.

It does not matter which one is heavier, it matters that heavier mechs are rewarded for their roles (which happen to primarily be damage delivery) and lighter mechs are rewarded for their roles (which happen to primarily be scouting). Mechs in the middle should be decent at both, one way or the other.

[R Razor]

Davers, on 05 July 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

Unfortunately they have to since heavies and assaults represent 60+ percent of every drop.

As a light pilot, you would actually want to play a non combat role? You would want to be helpless against heavier mechs, knowing that over 75% of the other team is heavier than you?

Where do you get the idea that lights aren't supposed to fight heavy and assault mechs? Is that from the same game that says assault mechs are rare? That medium mechs are the most common chassis?
This game has never promoted the use of lights and
Mediums and the MM clearly shows the results of that.

You are correct but that is the fault of the game designers............in THIS GAME, lights should not expect to be able to stand up against a heavy or assault in a 1 v 1 situation.

As to my being happy fulfilling support roles, yes I do enjoy it, I like helping my team win in whatever role my mech best fits. I do not subscribe to the COD mentality that dominates this game and these forums. Strategy and Tactics are far more interesting to me than spacebar click boom ever will be.

If PGI would grow some stones and implement a HARD RULE 3/3/3/3 and stop bowing to the whiners that aren't happy unless they can play their meta assaults or meta wolves then lights would have a larger role in the outcome of the game than they currently do.

No one fix is going to resolve these issues, it needs several changes, to rewards, to objectives and to in game mechanics overall.

Again, none of this is likely to happen because whether you, I or anyone else likes it, the tryhards and the COD whiners that make up the majority of the player base pay the bills and PGI is all about the Benjamins.