147 replies to this topic

[Adiuvo]

Sprouticus, on 06 July 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Screen shot of I call BS. unless you were on during the weeee hours fo the morning, I highly doubt the safety valves would not only screw up Elo, but also end up with 6 assaults to your 4


And in the very very slim chance they did have 6, you STILL should have 1on easily with 12.

I am not Geodeath

[Sandpit]

Jalik, on 06 July 2014 - 01:00 AM, said:

that's absolutely true.
But I accept the fact that they have to do one step after the other. Firstly, the new matchmaker works better than what we had before. From my perspective at least. I had some pretty close and fun solo matches and was served with a match with minimum waiting times (even in a heavy). Some tuning with small groups versus 12 mans necessary, as I understand. But the MM works pretty well. The necessary gameplay changes to make lights and mediums really attractive to play are something completely different and has little to do with the matchmaker itself. MAYBE community warefare is planned to bring some new roles for lights? I dunno, I hope they have a plan

I agree with everything you said.

I just have, do, and will continue to say that the rule of 3 doesn't fix things like variety and such along with a laundry list of other things.

[Chemistry Warden]

Willard Phule, on 06 July 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

You know, all these goobers up at PGI that are constantly on the Vlogs and such really SHOULD drop solo into the public queue a few times.....then see what they think about their Elo and 3/3/3/3 thing. Every time I see them, they're dropping as a group. Completely different animal there.

GG close.

I used to see Jason Bush (spelling?) online every once in a while solo dropping, but it has been quite some time since I've seen him online.

[Jolly Llama]

Adiuvo, on 06 July 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

If you were actually in a 12man then they didn't have six assaults. They had 3. Karl Berg (the guy who wrote the matchmaker) has explained repeatedly that while the MM will adjust many things, one thing it will never fold on is class matching.

We had a 12 man and ran up on two larger than 4 man groups.

[Adiuvo]

geodeath, on 06 July 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

We had a 12 man and ran up on two larger than 4 man groups.

Class matching still applies. As a 12man you're bound to 3/3/3/3, and thus the enemy team is as well.

[Cimarb]

geodeath, on 06 July 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

We had a 12 man and ran up on two larger than 4 man groups.

Adiuvo is right, Geo. While the matchmaker will release valves to allow different class distribution, it is still exactly the same on both sides. It does not release the valve for just one side.

If you have a screenshot of the After-Action Report, I would love to see it, though.

[Jolly Llama]

That may be what they say, but I know what I saw. They had six and 3/3/3/3 is bullshit.

[Jolly Llama]

This is the last match I was in. We had an 8 man group that is handcuffed by the 3/3/3/3 rule. Each team had 5 assaults due to matchmaker filling holes. It took forever to find this match. Why should the group I was in be handcuffed to 3 of any class when Match Maker can stack weight classes how it wants to fix its holes?

We should be able to drop what we want.

[Cerlin]

12 Mans have to conform to 3-3-3-3. Each group can only have 3 of each weight class. However, Vs 10 and 12 mans, smaller groups CAN break the rules to make a group. This has been observed several times by my unit members and I.

I find this is a good compromise because the 12 man should have better coordination and this balances that.

They should be very clear about it however....

[Sandpit]

Cerlin, on 06 July 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

12 Mans have to conform to 3-3-3-3. Each group can only have 3 of each weight class. However, Vs 10 and 12 mans, smaller groups CAN break the rules to make a group. This has been observed several times by my unit members and I.

I find this is a good compromise because the 12 man should have better coordination and this balances that.

They should be very clear about it however....

They've explained that in the CC and announcement posts
quite in-depth actually

[Rebas Kradd]

xXBagheeraXx, on 05 July 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

Why is everyone surprised nobody drives lights? THEY ARE FREAKING LIGHTS.

This is true and a valid dynamic. People want dakka.

That being said, it's not about the low number of lights, so much as the resulting high number of heavies and assaults, which drives up the damage output on the field, shortens time-to-kill, and pushes lights even further out of the picture along with mediums. However lights hold up in the current game environment, they HAVE to be incentivized to prevent everyone from just going with the biggest mech.

Of course, that would take larger maps...

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 06 July 2014 - 07:04 PM.

[Mawai]

Chemistry Warden, on 05 July 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

Since I don't want to process data from 180 odd screenshots of end of match scoreboards from the end of may until the latest patch, I'll assume that the 10 I've done so far are representative (I'm sure they're not after the clans arrive due to a marked increase in heavy mech use at the time because, you know, TWOLVES).

Mid-May

2.4 L/t/m
2.95 M/t/m
3.45 H/t/m
3.2 A/t/m

Pre-Patch (8 matches from July 1st)

2.43 L/t/m
3.19 M/t/m
3.375 H/t/m
3 A/t/m

Since the patch (Now 33! samples)

2.03 L/t/m
3 M/t/m (yes, exactly 3)
3.55 H/t/m
3.42 A/t/m

So, not only are there fewer lights than other classes in each match, my data suggests that not only has the last patch done nothing to increasing the number of lights in a match, but has actually decreased the number of lights in each match.

Ummm ... 3/3/3/3 was never intended to force players to play light mechs. It is not designed to increase the number of players playing any particular class of mech. The only way to do this is through incentives or penalties.

You could force 3/3/3/3 and thus increase the number of light mechs dropping in proportion to everything else. The penalty in this case is huge queues for people who prefer to play heavier mechs because there are not enough people who naturally shift to playing lights and mediums. No one wants to wait an hour for a match let alone 10 minutes and if 3/3/3/3 was strictly forced the queues would be over an hour very quickly.

So they build the matchmaker with release valves that allow for non 3/3/3/3 distributions.

However, the current system is much better than the previous match maker because you are guaranteed the same mech weight class distribution on each team. There are no more matches with 5 lights 3 mediums 3 heavies and an assault vs 1 light, 2 medium, 4 heavy and 5 assaults ...

You are also guaranteed no more than one 2-4 person group on each side in the solo queue and if one team has a group so does the other.

These constraints should generate better and more evenly balanced matches on average ... but it is still a team game ... if you coordinate your side a little it will perform much better than without that coordination. Folks who split the team, run off on their own and die or a full lance that runs into the main opposing force and gets wiped usually means that your side will lose the match no matter what the balance was to start with.

P.S. Also, apparently, the falling damage is a bit buggy and brutal on lights .. so if you want to look for a reason for fewer light mechs dropping ... I would look into that rather than the match maker.

Edited by Mawai, 06 July 2014 - 07:08 PM.

[Sandpit]

Rebas Kradd, on 06 July 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

Of course, that would take larger maps...

but according to Russ players don't WANT bigger maps

Mawai, on 06 July 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

You could force 3/3/3/3 and thus increase the number of light mechs dropping in proportion to everything else. The penalty in this case is huge queues for people who prefer to play heavier mechs because there are not enough people who naturally shift to playing lights and mediums. No one wants to wait an hour for a match let alone 10 minutes and if 3/3/3/3 was strictly forced the queues would be over an hour very quickly.

That's what they originally tried.
That's why it was taken down and the release valves were put in place.
Restricting the MM didn't increase lights (like many of us said it wouldn't), it just increased wait times for matches.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sandpit, on 06 July 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

but according to Russ players don't WANT bigger maps


That's what they originally tried.
That's why it was taken down and the release valves were put in place.
Restricting the MM didn't increase lights (like many of us said it wouldn't), it just increased wait times for matches.

Map sizes seem to be favored to be smaller. I had this discussion with a couple of clansmen. Seems I was one out of 7 or more could have been less to want big expansive maps. Do not remember how many were against me but it was a hefty number.

[Karamarka]

That big snow map is cool.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Karamarka, on 06 July 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

That big snow map is cool.

me too. Maps should come in all sizes and shapes.

[Sandpit]

BLOOD WOLF, on 06 July 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

Map sizes seem to be favored to be smaller. I had this discussion with a couple of clansmen. Seems I was one out of 7 or more could have been less to want big expansive maps. Do not remember how many were against me but it was a hefty number.

my map thread would show otherwise. Bigger = more tactical planning. Always will be simply because there's more area to plan for

[Jon Gotham]

Rebas Kradd, on 06 July 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

This is true and a valid dynamic. People want dakka.

That being said, it's not about the low number of lights, so much as the resulting high number of heavies and assaults, which drives up the damage output on the field, shortens time-to-kill, and pushes lights even further out of the picture along with mediums. However lights hold up in the current game environment, they HAVE to be incentivized to prevent everyone from just going with the biggest mech.

Of course, that would take larger maps...

Trouble is, the average person just wants to shoot and get his/her kills. they don't want a great fight, or engaging to and fro between objectives-they want to smash face and feel good about themselves when they log off. They aren't interested in fair or right-they want to win and feel good.
Currently this favours heavy and assault mechs with all the silly high damage output floating about. As long as it continues, people will still try to out-ton their opponents-they don't want a fair fight, they want kills and wins.

This is why the 4x3 will never work. People won't drop in smaller mechs because that won't feed their egos. This is where PGI have not quite got the plan right, part of mmo design is manipulation of the playerbase and it's behaviour-you can't expect players in a competitive game to "do the right thing" as that's counter productive to their edification.
So PGI-you might need to try something else.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Cimarb, on 06 July 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

Adiuvo is right, Geo. While the matchmaker will release valves to allow different class distribution, it is still exactly the same on both sides. It does not release the valve for just one side.

If you have a screenshot of the After-Action Report, I would love to see it, though.

Here's mine...we were a 12-man, and obviously the other side was at least 2 separate groups matched up against us. We had 3/3/3/3, but they had 4/4/2/2:

[Deathlike]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 06 July 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

Here's mine...we were a 12-man, and obviously the other side was at least 2 separate groups matched up against us. We had 3/3/3/3, but they had 4/4/2/2:

Valve broke.

12-man (fully compliant, naturally) vs combo platter.

It sounds to me that the timer ended probably close or @ 3 mins, and "that's the best it could do".

I assume they figure that a "12 man could handle it". It didn't seem like the case for you though.