160 replies to this topic

[Roland]

You can often make mechs which are similar... Just worse. Not a huge amount worse. Just a little sometimes. Worse range, or slightly less damage. Or less durable. Or less mobile.

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 07 July 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

You can often make mechs which are similar... Just worse. Not a huge amount worse. Just a little sometimes. Worse range, or slightly less damage. Or less durable. Or less mobile.

your'e totally discounting the lack of pinpoint with clan ACs which is a HUGE nerf for them compared to IS ACs. putting 20 points of damage in one spot as opposed to spread over 2-3 locations is a big difference. It's essentially the same as taking a laser boat toe to toe with a ballistics boat.

I can build a mech that competes on what I consider "even footing" with just about any clan build out there.

[IraqiWalker]

Roland, on 07 July 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:

The benefits of clan tech clearly outweigh the downsides in most cases though.

I mean, if you can't build good mechs, them you will likely make crappy clan mechs and think they are bad. Indeed, most clan mechs seen on the field are driven by bad players such as this.

But if you know how to build a mech, the clans have some awesome stuff. Half size chassis upgrades give tons of space and tonnage. And everything is lighter, so you can do even more with that saved tonnage. And of course, the clan xl engine is immensely powerful, with no downsides.

Weapons like the erppc, clan Gauss, and medium laser are powerhouses, and anyone who tries to play down the benefits of clan tech are likely just trying to talk them down in an attempt to avoid nerfing.. Or they are fooling themselves... Or they just don't understand what can be done with the clan technology.

Are we really going to do this again?

I've been designing builds in this game for long enough now, that I have at least 10 different builds for each chassis in the game.

I know how to bring out the best in the clan mechs, and I can make them very scary indeed. However, regardless of what you bring to the table, there are enough on the minus side to make it balanced and comparable to IS mechs.

How about we focus on the OP's actual questions instead of reopening the clans are OP/not OP discussion?

Roland, on 07 July 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

You can often make mechs which are similar... Just worse. Not a huge amount worse. Just a little sometimes. Worse range, or slightly less damage. Or less durable. Or less mobile.

Sounds like someone is making mistake number 1:

Trying to compete with the clans in their strong suit.
Don't build something that has the same weapons. Not when you can go a different path. Equal chance of winning doesn't mean running the same weapons.

[Soulscour]

I did not read this entire thread so forgive me if this has already been brought up. My advice to you in this game in its current state; Play the meta From what I can tell, based upon your preference to the Awesome, you're not doing that. The clan mechs that were released were balanced to go toe to toe with the current top meta. That means casual and fun builds are less viable to play (you will have less success). Play the top IS mechs/builds. That means pinpoint damage. I have had decent success with Jenner F, Raven 3L (ERLL), Cicada 3M (2PPC) Banshee 3E (2AC5 + 3PPC), AC40 jager/catapult, dual gauss jager/catapult, shadowhawks, pinpoint cataphract builds, AC + PPC on any heavy/assault mech with JJs. If you wanna try mass LRMs go ahead but I think the clan LRMs are better. Do not try IS mechs with dakka builds. Clan mechs will out dakka you. I would advise against the face hugging SRM builds. Yes they are effective again, but do you really want to be face hugging clan mechs that pack more weapons? Also one of the new top modules is radar deprivation so pick that up, its second best module now next to consumables and seismic.

[Sandpit]

Soulscour, on 07 July 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

I did not read this entire thread so forgive me if this has already been brought up. My advice to you in this game in its current state; Play the meta From what I can tell, based upon your preference to the Awesome, you're not doing that. The clan mechs that were released were balanced to go toe to toe with the current top meta. That means casual and fun builds are less viable to play (you will have less success). Play the top IS mechs/builds. That means pinpoint damage. I have had decent success with Jenner F, Raven 3L (ERLL), Cicada 3M (2PPC) Banshee 3E (2AC5 + 3PPC), AC40 jager/catapult, dual gauss jager/catapult, shadowhawks, pinpoint cataphract builds, AC + PPC on any heavy/assault mech with JJs. If you wanna try mass LRMs go ahead but I think the clan LRMs are better. Do not try IS mechs with dakka builds. Clan mechs will out dakka you. I would advise against the face hugging SRM builds. Yes they are effective again, but do you really want to be face hugging clan mechs that pack more weapons? Also one of the new top modules is radar deprivation so pick that up, its second best module now next to consumables and seismic.

uhm I don't run a single meta build (except I do have fun with me Ilya once in a while) so it's not required in any way to run meta.

I get what you're suggesting. It's "easier" to compete in a meta build for some but ultimately it comes down to learning and adapting your tactics.

[Cion]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 06 July 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

...I have played with you many times, and you stand in the open, you stop to shoot and you dont use cover....

If that were true I'd be dead because of lurms before Clan, or jumpsniping, and I did fairly well. Sure, I'm not the best, but I do know how to use cover. anywho, thanks for the tips, they are still helpful.

IraqiWalker, on 06 July 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

...You can pop out of cover. Fire your alpha, and pop right back in, before they can finish firing all their weapons.

Basically, focus more on hit and run, and PP FLD will help a lot....

sounds like hit and cover rather then hit and run. I think, based on the comments and my analysis, that I was trying to hit and run on my meds, when my meds are not SUPER fast, and a TB or summoner can outrun me. Hit and cover makes more sense than what I was doing.

Willard Phule, on 07 July 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

....
- Go for weapons with a high critical chance like, for instance, the LBX10.
...

noted.

Straylight, on 07 July 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

Best success I've had against Clan machines is with my K2, and it's not even Elited yet. XL 300, 2x PPCs, AC/10 with 2 tons of ammo, 2x ML. Fast enough to keep up with the fight, with a quick, precise 30-point sucker punch.

I've found medium ranges, 400-600 meters, is the best place to engage Clan machines. Their range advantage is largely nullified at that distance, but their heavy-hitter brawling weapons are still out of range. You'll be trading shots, but movement and terrain at those ranges tends to favor front-loaded IS weapons.

Now that said, Clan machines are (correctly) better in one-on-one fights. Ton for ton, they pack more capability into a chassis, and that advantage shows the most when they can sucker someone into a duel. Don't give them the opportunity.

This makes a lot of sense and seems to be a recurring theme. thnx.

Pjwned, on 07 July 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

As far as speed is concerned, if you find clan mechs are going faster than you then you're likely going very slow for IS mech standards, so maybe try putting a bigger engine in. A....

This is true, I tend to have mechs that go 65+-90 ish. This in general seems slower than Summoners and Timberwolves. Both outrun my meds and have lots more firepower. Same with my heavies. I'll look into pumping up the speed.

Lykaon, on 07 July 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

Many clan mechs have poor arm articulation meaning they do not handle horizontal as well as vertical.This coupled with a higher volume of burst and beam weapons means rapid sweeping motions at closer ranges give an advantage to the I.S. mechs in brawling ranges.

The Clan speed advantage is concentrated in the medium and heavy weight classes with the Timberwolf Summoner and Stormcrow possessing faster than average speeds for their I.S. counterparts.On these specific mechs it is actually a decent plan to leg them.They can torso twist all day the legs do not benefit from this technique.

Also,just because you legged them does not mean you need to finish them right that instant.Removing the speed from these mechs will cause the clan forces to get split and isolated if they are not careful.Wait be patient and those legged mechs will become isolated and easier to take down.

Plan on having to deal with LRMs.The lower weight and critical costs for clan LRMs makes it far more likely they will be running multi role builds that have brawling and LRM capabilities.Bring AMS and radar dep. modules.

With only two light mechs available and one of those with ECM capability be prepared to have ECM on clan mechs.Bring UAVs to help counter this.

The advantages you need to negate are superior range,superior DPS and flexability in builds (low tonnage/crit missiles allow for ease in multirole builds).
...

Invaluable insights. thx.

Sahoj, on 07 July 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

...
Last - Clanners do not seem to offer high mount pinpoint damage weapon mounts. I know that in my HBK I am often firing on Clan Mechs over low rises and not suffering any damage in return. Bring your Hunchbacks, Jagermechs, Blackjacks and Stalkers please.

ahhh, another good observation. thnx.

[Cion]

Elyam, on 07 July 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

...
The coming of clantech makes us more than ever walk away from unrefined IS builds. It makes us defend better. Makes us face our poor tactical choices. IS mechs and companies can indeed stand toe to toe against clantech. We have some advantages that people here are reviewing. But only our best builds can manage it, and poor tactical choices die in the face of it. It causes us to be on our toes again.

This weekend after 3 matches I began thinking that I would move away from MWO for a few months until the Clan mechs became earnable with C-bills. After 6 matches I changed my mind and started accepting the challenge to make it work with IS tech. And work it does, once you know the score.

Well said and Amen brotha.

CygnusX7, on 07 July 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

pssst... Shadowhawk 2H with 2-AC5's, 1-AC2 and a mL. 2JJ's, XL235 a DHS and as much ammo as you can carry.
With Adv Zoom almost every match is a shooting gallery.

sounds fun

Jman5, on 07 July 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

....
The best advice I can give you is to memorize hardpoints and the component hitpoints. Then you do your best to rip off the component without getting spotted. Focus particular attention on builds that are either asymetrical (weapons on one side). Or exclusively arm-based.

Let's take an energy boat nova like this. All the weapons are in the arms so if you can nip them off, he's useless. Each arm has 48 hitpoints so when you see a nova coming your way, you need to know about how many alphas it is going to take to remove an arm.

Unfortunately the nature of the clans omnipods makes figuring out hardpoints much more difficult, but you will see common patterns in builds.

This is also useful and true thnx.

Spleenslitta, on 07 July 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

If you're still around OP. Do you use any really fast mechs (+125 kph)?

Its been a long time since I;ve done over 100. I hear many ppl say IS lights rule, however we all see very few lights on the queue. However, I'll look into beefing up the speed on my mechs.

MischiefSC, on 07 July 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

Hmmm....
.....
Maybe you are pretty out-gunned though.

interesting numbers...does that translate into higher kills as well? (DOT vs Pinpoint stuff)

girl on fire, on 07 July 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

lower mouse sensitivity will make using laser pinpoint accuracy way easier. ...

will try this because I havent varied my mouse sensitivity in a long time.

IraqiWalker, on 07 July 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

Yeah. My mouse has a small button behind the wheel to switch between 4 dpit presets, and it can be quite helpful

me gusta

Soulscour, on 07 July 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

I did not read this entire thread so forgive me if this has already been brought up. My advice to you in this game in its current state; Play the meta From what I can tell, based upon your preference to the Awesome, you're not doing that. The clan mechs that were released were balanced to go toe to toe with the current top meta. That means casual and fun builds are less viable to play (you will have less success). Play the top IS mechs/builds. That means pinpoint damage. ....

Interesting though. I;ve made non-meta work (I recognize I'm not a top notch competitive player. I do need to reevaluate my tactics vs mastered clans though.

***************OK, thanks all for the input. I will edit the original post to summarize some things learned, may be of use to others.

See you on the battlefield.
Edit: spacing.

Edited by Cion, 07 July 2014 - 08:29 PM.

[Triordinant]

As a final word: think of this as preparation for Community Warfare where we must stand against the seemingly unstoppable onslaught of the Clans. Can't wait for the Binaries vs. Companies battles to begin.

[Cion]

My first mech game was Mechwarrior 2 Mercs. It felt fantastic to attempt to hold off the Clans with inferior tech .
PS: "look at the bright side kid, you get to keep all the money!!"
"shoot me even once, and I'll tear that beer can you call a mech, into scrap"-Deadeye

Edited by Cion, 07 July 2014 - 08:25 PM.

[Soulscour]

Sandpit, on 07 July 2014 - 07:28 PM, said:

uhm I don't run a single meta build (except I do have fun with me Ilya once in a while) so it's not required in any way to run meta.

I get what you're suggesting. It's "easier" to compete in a meta build for some but ultimately it comes down to learning and adapting your tactics.

I think you're addressing the issue differently. You're talking about dealing with a disadvantage by adjusting tactics to overcome it. I am talking about eliminating a disadvantage before tactics even come into play.

Edited by Soulscour, 07 July 2014 - 08:27 PM.

[Soulscour]

Cion, on 07 July 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:

Interesting though. I;ve made non-meta work (I recognize I'm not a top notch competitive player. I do need to reevaluate my tactics vs mastered clans though.

I make non-meta mechs work as well. I am just pointing out that there is a proliferation of better mechs/builds in game since clan invasion both in clan mechs and IS mechs trying to compete so it is generally harder to make them work. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just less possible than before.

[Cion]

Soulscour, on 07 July 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

I make non-meta mechs work as well. I am just pointing out that there is a proliferation of better mechs/builds in game since clan invasion both in clan mechs and IS mechs trying to compete so it is generally harder to make them work. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just less possible than before.

Agreed. the gap between "meta" and non-meta builds seems to have widened.

[IraqiWalker]

Cion, on 07 July 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:

sounds like hit and cover rather then hit and run. I think, based on the comments and my analysis, that I was trying to hit and run on my meds, when my meds are not SUPER fast, and a TB or summoner can outrun me. Hit and cover makes more sense than what I was doing.

That would be one way to put it. If your version of hit and run involves long winded chases, the clan mechs can run you down and isolate you in that regard. They will probably have friends with them too. So use cover to make sure they don't get a good shot on you. You will receive damage, but it won't be lethal. There is no tactic in the game that guarantees you a kill without some return fire being possible. Not even poptarting.

Cion, on 07 July 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:

interesting numbers...does that translate into higher kills as well? (DOT vs Pinpoint stuff)

Higher damage can mean higher kills sometimes. However, the really scary ones aren't the ones dealing high damage at the end of the match. It's the ones that average 150 damage per kill. That's about as efficient as you're going to get with killing someone. Pinpoint damage means you splash less, and deal less damage in total, however, you wreck the part you are trying to hit. So 300 in LRMs damage hitting an atlas will wreck most of it's parts, but won't actually generate a kill most of the time (if the pilot torso twists), while you need 186 damage max (if all CT armor was put into front CT, with 0 in back) to kill it with pinpoint damage.

[Scratx]

KAT Ayanami, on 07 July 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

See what I said? Cocky guy here just said it too. His Meta-Mechs are doing fine.

Any mech that can pinpoint alpha and run away, or LRM under cover can do O-K. Anything else just takes a beating because the moment a Clan Mech sees you they bring armageddon without caring about distance.

Just as an aside, I mentioned those because they were the first ones that came to me and I was too tired to bother. I can say my 2 ERLL+2 LL K2 also works just fine (it's my dual ERPPC K2 that drags the stats down a bit IIRC ), my C1 Catapult also does (btw, I don't sit back in the rear twiddling thumbs) and I'm certain quite a few of my other IS builds work, too. I've just been busy xp'ing the clan mechs to play them all enough matches to get a good enough sample.

I also disagree that Meta mechs are the only ones that can do well. I've seen (and played) non-meta mechs do tons of horrible amounts of damage and kills for me to possibly agree. But meh, call me cocky all you want.

[Ursh]

IraqiWalker, on 07 July 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

That's not what we're saying.

Right now, you make a choice: You've got three mechs charging your team. Atlas, Battlemaster, and a Hunchback.

Which one do you try to kill? The Hunchie that's a medium, or the Atlas with the AC 20, 3xSRM6, and 4MLs? Or the Battlemaster who might be an LRM boat, or a gun toting maniac (UAC5+2xAC2 on the BLR-1D).

You either try and pad your stats by getting the hunchie, or try to support your team by weakening the two juggernauts that are going to steamroll them.

Basically, going after the hunchie, is probably a bad choice in that situation. So the enemy is going to be a bad pilot if they hit it, in this scenario.

You blow off the hunch first, because it's the biggest gun with the least armor protecting it, along with being the easiest to hit. Then you ignore the hback and his 2 medium lasers until everything else is dead. Also, the hback is the biggest threat to flank you and shoot you in the back while you're dealing with the heavier mechs, but only if his ac20 is functional.

Simple analysis of how to reduce incoming damage the fastest. Blow off the RT of the hback, then the RT of the Atlas, and then core out the Battlemaster.

I stand on my assertion that the ac20 hback relies just as much, and probably more, on your opponents making bad decisions as it does on you making good decisions. Maybe your experience is that opponents choose not to focus on the most easily removed big gun in the game in order to shoot through twice as much armor to remove a similar weapon from an Atlas. That's not my experience though.

Edited by Ursh, 08 July 2014 - 12:48 AM.

[Kitane]

Blowing the hunch requires 71 points of damage, it's not exactly fragile.

But if the hunchback is exposed and the enemy "insists" on removing that hunch, he will usually succeed.

[Soulscour]

Ursh, on 08 July 2014 - 12:37 AM, said:

I stand on my assertion that the ac20 hback relies just as much, and probably more, on your opponents making bad decisions as it does on you making good decisions. Maybe your experience is that opponents choose not to focus on the most easily removed big gun in the game in order to shoot through twice as much armor to remove a similar weapon from an Atlas. That's not my experience though.

Don't be a hunchy hater. They are solid mechs, just no jumpjets. You wanna hate, pick a kintaro, or griffin since they dont even have ballistic options.

Edited by Soulscour, 08 July 2014 - 01:11 AM.

[Roland]

Sandpit, on 07 July 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

your'e totally discounting the lack of pinpoint with clan ACs which is a HUGE nerf for them compared to IS ACs. putting 20 points of damage in one spot as opposed to spread over 2-3 locations is a big difference. It's essentially the same as taking a laser boat toe to toe with a ballistics boat.

I can build a mech that competes on what I consider "even footing" with just about any clan build out there.

I'm not discounting it.. I'm just pointing out that you don't need to use ACS.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Overall after reading through the only thing that truly stands out is mouse sensitivity. It has the biggest impact for new players. I am very limited with how i can play so its critical for me to get it right because many times I go through periods where i cant see well and have to aim center of mass best I can. It drives me apeshat that some patches wipe my settings. Write down your settings after you get it or it will begin anew.

[Sandpit]

Soulscour, on 07 July 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

I think you're addressing the issue differently. You're talking about dealing with a disadvantage by adjusting tactics to overcome it. I am talking about eliminating a disadvantage before tactics even come into play.

No we differ in opinion. I don't feel there's a disadvantage against clans in the first place.

When jjs got adjusted you had to adapt
Collisions removed adapt
New mechs introduced adapt
New meta builds adapt
Lrms adjusted adapy
Hitboxes adjusted adapt
Clans introduced adapt

Adapting to something new or different doesn't imply a disadvantage