160 replies to this topic

[Biaxialrain]

I love that, "Clan weapons are OP" to wit, "twist, turn or don't get shot".

Brilliant.

They are OP, more damage, further range.

[Bishop Steiner]

Willard Phule, on 07 July 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Nah, I really...REALLY...resisted the urge to buy any Clan mechs at first. I mean, giving PGI money for any reason is enough to turn my stomach. But...I missed my Timberwolf from the other MW games and caved, so I got one ala-carte.

It is a bit of an advantage, if only because everything weighs less...it gives you a little more flexibility to slap together a decent "all pupose" mech. I'm rolling in a TBR-P with 2 x CERLLs, 4 x CERMLS, 1 JJ and a TC4. That targeting computer makes ALL the difference. Components flying around everywhere.

But...I'll be honest with you...I was doing pretty much the same thing in my CTF-3D with 2 x LBX10 and 4 MLs. It's just slower, I guess.

Exactly. On paper, at first glance, due to lighter weights, the Clans do APPEAR to have the advantage. But due to DoT ACs, long durations to lasers and pulse lasers, really long cooldowns on the larger SSRM launchers, and LRMS easily defeated by AMS, their actual comparative, and applicable DPS, and HpS often is lower than the IS versions. A good example being in all cases i have checked so far (which is not the same as all cases, yet), when you track a Clan Laser's damage over the same period of time as the full burn of an IS laser, the IS laser does it's damage in much shorter, focused times, and over the same time period, does MORE damage than the Clan Lasers. Realistically, in many instances the "extra damage" is totally wasted, as it either misses the target entirely or is spread across the mech, but the extra heat is still there, as well as the longer burn time meaning longer waits for cooldown to start. UACs are not near as effective (or LB-X for that matter) as IS ACs. You have to stand and stare to get cored by them.

Add in the slow speeds of Lights and the DW (even the Nova, really), the generally mediocre (or worse) hitboxes, which reduce their ability to spread damage, largely equalizing for the better XL survivability, and the need to stare at their opponent, when as you know all good IS jocks, dump damage, and twist, and the "advantages" really start to evaporate.

[KharnZor]

Biaxialrain, on 07 July 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

I love that, "Clan weapons are OP" to wit, "twist, turn or don't get shot".

Brilliant.

They are OP, more damage, further range.

More damage,further range,longer burn times,burst fire AC's, no pinpoint FLD etc. etc.
The advantages are weighted against the disadvantages.
Get a clue.

[Bishop Steiner]

Biaxialrain, on 07 July 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

I love that, "Clan weapons are OP" to wit, "twist, turn or don't get shot".

Brilliant.

They are OP, more damage, further range.

Longer burn time, DoT ACs, etc.

AKA, yes, L2P and they are not OP. Stand out in the open staring at them like a Mouthbreather, you will indeed die. Then again, you would die to the IS that way, too.

A short summary of the fallacies of your thinking are in my reply to Phule, above.


But then, we have been trying to get you to take off your blinders and look beyond just TWO of the multiple factors for 3 weeks now, and you have been unwilling or mentally unable to grasp more than 2 concepts at a time, so I doubt you will get it now, either.

KharnZor, on 07 July 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

More damage,further range,longer burn times,burst fire AC's, no pinpoint FLD etc. etc.
The advantages are weighted against the disadvantages.
Get a clue.

He is the first "Golden Lockwood Award" winner for a reason.

[KharnZor]

Golden Lockwood award

[Andross Deverow]

xXBagheeraXx, on 06 July 2014 - 11:16 PM, said:

Clan mechs for the most part lose the "peekaboo" game...All you really need to ruin a clanners day is jumpjets and an ac20....im loving my Blackjack grind right now.

I had one game a few nights ago in my Dual gauss Muromets in mordor (terra therma) where timberwolves and thors kept parking at the top of ramps and trading with me...they kept getting dual gaussed in the ct and i kept spreading thier acs and large lasers all over the place...2 mechs and 600 damage+ azztons of components later i was still standing with only reddish armor and quite a few of them weren't. When we start getting High alpha big gun IS assaults heavies and the like things will start evening out....

I really dont know what to look forward to heavy wise as far as new mechs in this time line, nor how well armed they are, but I DO know that the mauler and the king crab will definitly even up the Dakka curve..wont be as well armed as a dire wolf since they will probably be standard engine builds, but they can at least carry dual ac20s or gauss with some decent supporting weapons and ammo, a first for the innersphere up to this point.

Crab will be able to fit an XL

Regards

[MeiSooHaityu]

I feel the OP's pain. As time goes by, I am having more and more trouble dealing with clan mechs. I am having the most difficulty with my larger mechs and am having some continuing luck with smaller mechs like the ECM Raven 3L.

As time goes on, Clan mechs are showing that they are the superior chassis with most builds. Most people claiming good performance in IS chassis are running high pinpoint alpha builds.

It is time to run META in IS builds to hang. Kind of a shame, but as the war changes, so must the machines. What a real shame

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 07 July 2014 - 11:18 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 07 July 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

I feel the OP's pain. As time goes by, I am having more and more trouble dealing with clan mechs. I am having the most difficulty with my larger mechs and am having some continuing luck with smaller mechs like the ECM Raven 3L.

As time goes on, Clan mechs are showing that they are the superior chassis with most builds. Most people claiming good performance in IS chassis are running high pinpoint alpha builds.

It is time to run META in IS builds to hang. Kind of a shame, but as the war changes, do must the machines. What a real shame

Mine are not pinpoint alpha. But Maybe because I run the Clan Mechs, too, on my other account, I am just really familiar with their shortcomings, too? You know I aint trying to give you grief, but I simply don't run Meta, and am doing really really good. Maybe it's a build or play style thing, and yours just needs a tweak to get back on track? I hope so, anyhow.

KharnZor, on 07 July 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

Golden Lockwood award

Named for our dear xLockwoodx who has proven himself an unwitting troll by his inability to realize his issues just tend to be he is a crappy player, and yet spends time railing across the forums, and trying to derail threads that constantly use wisdom and fact to shoot him down, yet is too hard headed to get it.

It's kind of like the MWO version of the Darwin Awards.

[Jman5]

There is no simple solution and It's really annoying when I read the people here that I know play clan mechs telling you to L2P.

The best advice I can give you is to memorize hardpoints and the component hitpoints. Then you do your best to rip off the component without getting spotted. Focus particular attention on builds that are either asymetrical (weapons on one side). Or exclusively arm-based.

Let's take an energy boat nova like this. All the weapons are in the arms so if you can nip them off, he's useless. Each arm has 48 hitpoints so when you see a nova coming your way, you need to know about how many alphas it is going to take to remove an arm.

Unfortunately the nature of the clans omnipods makes figuring out hardpoints much more difficult, but you will see common patterns in builds.

[KharnZor]

MeiSooHaityu, on 07 July 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

I feel the OP's pain. As time goes by, I am having more and more trouble dealing with clan mechs. I am having the most difficulty with my larger mechs and am having some continuing luck with smaller mechs like the ECM Raven 3L.

As time goes on, Clan mechs are showing that they are the superior chassis with most builds. Most people claiming good performance in IS chassis are running high pinpoint alpha builds.

It is time to run META in IS builds to hang. Kind of a shame, but as the war changes, so must the machines. What a real shame

Keep running those ravens, they are one of the most annoying mechs to use against clan mechs and are down right devastating when running narc.
They are good at sowing confusion and hitting a prime target with narc these days is almost certain death.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 July 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

...Maybe it's a build or play style thing, and yours just needs a tweak to get back on track? I hope so, anyhow.

You and me both :/. Maybe it is an ELO thing, or maybe a mech or tactics thing like you said. Still, I can't help but feel outclassed as of late out there. Not terribly fun :/. I'll have to try and find something that works *shrug*, but I see more AC5s and PPCs in my future

[Spleenslitta]

If you're still around OP. Do you use any really fast mechs (+125 kph)? If you do i can give you a set of tactics where the enemy weaponry barelly matters.
If not i can't help you. Sorry.

My biggest concern with clan weapons is the Clan ER Medium laser vs the IS medium and large lasers.
The heat, range, damage, weight.....when you compare all of this at Smurfy it just.....just look at it okay.

[Andross Deverow]

Spleenslitta, on 07 July 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

If you're still around OP. Do you use any really fast mechs (+125 kph)? If you do i can give you a set of tactics where the enemy weaponry barelly matters.
If not i can't help you. Sorry.

My biggest concern with clan weapons is the Clan ER Medium laser vs the IS medium and large lasers.
The heat, range, damage, weight.....when you compare all of this at Smurfy it just.....just look at it okay.

Agree totally, CERML need a minor tweak to reduce range or damage. Just a small one as they sit now they are a bit ridiculous with the range they have.

Regards

[MischiefSC]

Hmmm....

So I just divided the damage I've done with UAC20s by the number of matches I've used it in. I've used it plenty.

624.04 damage per match I bring a UAC20 to.

Clan ERLL 459.08

That's all 2 and 3x what my IS weapons do per match.

I'm not even talking about hit % or anything like that.... just how much damage a weapon gives out on average per match you bring one to.

I'm averaging 14.6/trigger pull with the UAC20 and 5.65/trigger pull with the CERLLs.

Sweet baby jesus. That is pretty hardcore. I know it all spreads but still...

DAYUM.

Hopefully that will balance out over a hundred or 200 matches.

Maybe you are pretty out-gunned though.

[Willard Phule]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 July 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

Exactly. On paper, at first glance, due to lighter weights, the Clans do APPEAR to have the advantage. But due to DoT ACs, long durations to lasers and pulse lasers, really long cooldowns on the larger SSRM launchers, and LRMS easily defeated by AMS, their actual comparative, and applicable DPS, and HpS often is lower than the IS versions. A good example being in all cases i have checked so far (which is not the same as all cases, yet), when you track a Clan Laser's damage over the same period of time as the full burn of an IS laser, the IS laser does it's damage in much shorter, focused times, and over the same time period, does MORE damage than the Clan Lasers. Realistically, in many instances the "extra damage" is totally wasted, as it either misses the target entirely or is spread across the mech, but the extra heat is still there, as well as the longer burn time meaning longer waits for cooldown to start. UACs are not near as effective (or LB-X for that matter) as IS ACs. You have to stand and stare to get cored by them.

Add in the slow speeds of Lights and the DW (even the Nova, really), the generally mediocre (or worse) hitboxes, which reduce their ability to spread damage, largely equalizing for the better XL survivability, and the need to stare at their opponent, when as you know all good IS jocks, dump damage, and twist, and the "advantages" really start to evaporate.

Right, but in the PUG queue, none of that matters.

Knowing how to twist to spread damage, taking cover from LRMs, staying with the group......shooting without stopping and zooming, not hitting your teammates in spawn....there are all skills that are, apparently, not important to the "mid-range" Elo.

I base that statement on the assumption that I am in that Elo bracket myself. Since I tend to end up with at least 50% new players on my team every time, I think it's a reasonable guess. But, who knows? I could be in the noob bracket.

[Pjwned]

Andross Deverow, on 07 July 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

Agree totally, CERML need a minor tweak to reduce range or damage. Just a small one as they sit now they are a bit ridiculous with the range they have.

Regards

As I've seen Bishop point out, IS medium lasers should just generate less heat and I think I agree with that now more than nerfing the C-ER medium laser, although perhaps a little bit of both would work too.

I do agree it's a rather large discrepancy though.

[Devlin Pierce]

There is another solution. Torso twist to the left or right, take your wallet out of your pocket, buy clan mech package.

[xe N on]

MischiefSC, on 07 July 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

Hmmm....

So I just divided the damage I've done with UAC20s by the number of matches I've used it in. I've used it plenty.

624.04 damage per match I bring a UAC20 to.

Clan ERLL 459.08

That's all 2 and 3x what my IS weapons do per match.

I'm not even talking about hit % or anything like that.... just how much damage a weapon gives out on average per match you bring one to.

These numbers emphasize my obervations. Damage is something which is quite on inflation. During IS only era, doing 600+ damage and some kills was a quite remarkable ... at least in my ELO range ... if not archived by spamming LRMs.

Today? Not quite much. Watching people playing Omnimechs it seem that even lower skill player running around with perma armlock and horrible aim can easily archive a score that was formerly reserved for much better players.

Though Clanners won't kill more stuff because most of the damage is spread, they do alot more damage and therefore I guess earn alot more CBILL then their IS team mates on higher skill level.

Edited by xe N on, 07 July 2014 - 12:15 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Willard Phule, on 07 July 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Right, but in the PUG queue, none of that matters.

Knowing how to twist to spread damage, taking cover from LRMs, staying with the group......shooting without stopping and zooming, not hitting your teammates in spawn....there are all skills that are, apparently, not important to the "mid-range" Elo.

I base that statement on the assumption that I am in that Elo bracket myself. Since I tend to end up with at least 50% new players on my team every time, I think it's a reasonable guess. But, who knows? I could be in the noob bracket.

thing is, there really is no "set" as to who you run across, In GenPop, same team can have a top Elo and a Bottom Elo player. But in general, PUG queue does seem to see worse behavior.

[IraqiWalker]

Ursh, on 07 July 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

I've also noticed a recurring theme where some mechs are only good if your opponents are stupid or make terrible decisions. EX: Dire Wolf

That's not what we're saying.

Right now, you make a choice: You've got three mechs charging your team. Atlas, Battlemaster, and a Hunchback.

Which one do you try to kill? The Hunchie that's a medium, or the Atlas with the AC 20, 3xSRM6, and 4MLs? Or the Battlemaster who might be an LRM boat, or a gun toting maniac (UAC5+2xAC2 on the BLR-1D).

You either try and pad your stats by getting the hunchie, or try to support your team by weakening the two juggernauts that are going to steamroll them.

Basically, going after the hunchie, is probably a bad choice in that situation. So the enemy is going to be a bad pilot if they hit it, in this scenario.

Elyam, on 07 July 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

We have some advantages that people here are reviewing. But only our best builds can manage it, and poor tactical choices die in the face of it. It causes us to be on our toes again.

I agree with your post in it's majority. However, I want to add a caveat from my personal experience. Yes, the best optimized builds have no problems dealing with clan mechs. However, if you choose to run something that is not that, then you need to have the piloting skills to compensate for it.

xe N on, on 07 July 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

These numbers emphasize my obervations. Damage is something which is quite on inflation. During IS only era, doing 600+ damage and some kills was a quite remarkable ... at least in my ELO range ... if not archived by spamming LRMs.

Today? Not quite much. Watching people playing Omnimechs it seem that even lower skill player running around with perma armlock and horrible aim can easily archive a score that was formerly reserved for much better players.

Though Clanners won't kill more stuff because most of the damage is spread, they do alot more damage and therefore I guess earn alot more CBILL then their IS team mates on higher skill level.

Not necessarily true. You see a single assist is equal to about 150 points of damage. Unless the clan players match the IS players on every stat across the board (save for damage), they will be making equal if not less money. That's assuming non prime/hero variants, and so no C-Bill bonuses are being factored in.