160 replies to this topic

[Willard Phule]

Karamarka, on 06 July 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

ELO is a myth in MWO.

Only for those of us that aren't at the very tip top of the scale. Those guys don't have to deal with the drooling mouthbreathers and, besides, they don't drop into the solo queue often anyway. Not that that has anything to do with the OP's original topic.

If you play IS mechs and you feel outgunned....guess what? You're SUPPOSED TO BE OUTGUNNED, at least for a little bit.

At the time of the Clan invasion, the Successor Houses are STILL fighting each other. Not only is this a drain on their resources, it also hampers any sort of weapons improvement. The recovery of the Gray Death memory core is the ONLY reason they have things like ER and Pulse lasers.

You can't expect the IS to crank out their versions of SSRM6's and crap before all the Omnis have been released for cbills...the invasion has only just begun. Heck, we don't even know what planets they've taken because CW doesn't exist yet.

But, you know, there are a few tricks that you can use to beat Omnis...I see them every single day.

- Don't stop and zoom in to shoot. Stationary targets are WAY easier to hit than moving ones.
- Learn to unzoom occasionally. You'd be surprised how many times you've shot your teammates in the back because you didn't notice them there.
- Go for weapons with a high critical chance like, for instance, the LBX10.
- And the hardest one of all....don't wander off on your own. There's safety in numbers.

Edited by Willard Phule, 07 July 2014 - 03:34 AM.

[That Dawg]

Cion, on 06 July 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

So I rarely make any quick judgements. I never complained about the LRMpocalipse, SRMgeddon, the PPC/AC stuff, jumsniping, LRMpocalipse2, etc. I always found a way around it, tactics, loadouts, etc. Sure, maybe not as efficient, but did a decent job.

I did not complain about the Clan mechs. Yes, the devs did it relatively good, making longer laser durations, and different lrm mechanics so they are not totally OP.

When clans came out, I could still hold my own vs some. Many TBs were just simply cocky and that killed em. Direwolves got LRMd to death, etc.

These last few days though, I am finally starting to *feel* outgunned.

/// finally mastered their clan mechs, or just more experience,//

yeah, +1, agreed, and all of that.
I knew when they hit the market, it would be a week or so before they were elited out, heat containment, cool run, speed tweak, extra module slot etc etc

free to play, pay to win

[That Dawg]

Willard Phule, on 07 July 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

Only for those of us that aren't at the very tip top of the scale. Those guys don't have to deal with the drooling mouthbreathers and, besides, they don't drop into the solo queue often anyway.

At the time of the Clan invasion//Successor Houses//Gray Death memory core is the ONLY reason they have things like ER and Pulse lasers.

because CW doesn't exist yet.

CW doesn't exist, but we have clan mechs for greenbacks
and saying that because the table top game, or the book does this or does is an excuse for crap planning for a modern video game is as utterly an incompetent thing to say as I can imagine.
I am NOT attacking you- I am not sure why folks like you are falling for the thinking that the way something was years ago is justification for something broke now.

When I drop with two other guys, we see 4-10 man drops time after time after time.
I drop alone and hope for a decent battle.
however during peak times, I have dropped into clan drops.....and it went as expected.

current matchmaker, you roll stomp them, or you get roll stomped

[Ursh]

MischiefSC, on 07 July 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

This. Hunchies are small and unobtrusive. Alone people will jump all up in one. You see one back and a bit behind a Timber Wolf, Atlas or other face-eater and you'll pencil him in down the list some. You're up on a hill with 2 PPCs in your Cicada and you see the backs of a TWolf, Hunchie and a Dire Wolf it's no hard guess who he pops in the back. No way of knowing if that Hunchie is a nutbar with an XL or smarty with a standard and the CT is narrow at range and from behind.

You ride shotgun for someone who's going to draw a lot of fire. Then you lean out and give them a rude, painful surprise. At which time they remember a tad too late just what a stupid mount of grief you can stuff in a Hunchie on almost any chassis. Armor up front, quick enough to to nip around your wing leader and WHAM.

BJs can't take a hit and Shawks draw fire - they get mistaken for Summoners, Banshees, etc. at range. Tall, lanky and menacing pokey bits. People give a Hunchie a pass when it's in meaner looking company. It's a bad mistake. The KDR on my AC20 Hunchie is better than any of my other mediums - specifically for this reason. Play quiet, play back, ride shotgun and wait for a good driveby.

I've also noticed a recurring theme where some mechs are only good if your opponents are stupid or make terrible decisions. EX: Dire Wolf

[A banana in the tailpipe]

You are outgunned. Clan mech come loaded with LURMS and warhawk primes are replacing stalkers as the king of indirect boating.

Edited by lockwoodx, 07 July 2014 - 04:05 AM.

[Willard Phule]

ThatDawg, on 07 July 2014 - 03:41 AM, said:

free to play, pay to win

I still think it's more accurate to say:

"Free to play, pay to have a temporary advantage"

This isn't the first time this has happened. Think about every single time they released a new 'mech. First it came out as a Hero/Champion for MC, then the base chassis was released for cbills (you still have to pay MC for the champion/hero version). Victors in general, and the Dragon Slayer specifically, are a GREAT example of this.

And, oddly enough, that's EXACTLY what we're seeing here with the Omnis. One version, the Prime, is a Champion mech...the other two variants, well, to be completely honest with you...they're parts. Sure, if you have all the omnipods for that specific variant, you get a bonus 7.5% on your cbills and xp. But, why would you even bother with 7.5% when you can get 80%? 50% for Premium Time + 30% Champion bonus adds up fast. Kind of like what everyone is doing with the CTF-3D( C ).

Edited by Willard Phule, 07 July 2014 - 04:16 AM.

[Willard Phule]

ThatDawg, on 07 July 2014 - 03:47 AM, said:

CW doesn't exist, but we have clan mechs for greenbacks
and saying that because the table top game, or the book does this or does is an excuse for crap planning for a modern video game is as utterly an incompetent thing to say as I can imagine.
I am NOT attacking you- I am not sure why folks like you are falling for the thinking that the way something was years ago is justification for something broke now.

When I drop with two other guys, we see 4-10 man drops time after time after time.
I drop alone and hope for a decent battle.
however during peak times, I have dropped into clan drops.....and it went as expected.

current matchmaker, you roll stomp them, or you get roll stomped

I hear you, man. I don't drop in groups, so I've seen the roflstomp parade in the PUG every single day.

But, you know, it's not the Clan tech that's doing it. Both teams have Omnis. It all boils down to which team has more drooling mouthbreathers that shoot each other in the back, stand still in the open and generally do incompetent things that they should have learned through the tutorial system. As if there's a tutorial system.

Which is the main reason that I say the pugstomps are "working as intended." If PGI didn't want the pugstomps to happen, they'd fix it. Since they haven't, the only other assumption one can make is that this is what they wanted.

Which is kind of funny, considering. When was the last time you saw a PGI guy in the public queue as a SOLO DROPPER? I can't say I've ever seen it. I've seen them drop in groups into the PUG queue...and get their asses handed to them on a plastic spoon...but never solo. Perhaps they should try it out and see what we've been screaming about for so long.

[Straylight]

Best success I've had against Clan machines is with my K2, and it's not even Elited yet. XL 300, 2x PPCs, AC/10 with 2 tons of ammo, 2x ML. Fast enough to keep up with the fight, with a quick, precise 30-point sucker punch.

I've found medium ranges, 400-600 meters, is the best place to engage Clan machines. Their range advantage is largely nullified at that distance, but their heavy-hitter brawling weapons are still out of range. You'll be trading shots, but movement and terrain at those ranges tends to favor front-loaded IS weapons.

Now that said, Clan machines are (correctly) better in one-on-one fights. Ton for ton, they pack more capability into a chassis, and that advantage shows the most when they can sucker someone into a duel. Don't give them the opportunity.

[Xyroc]

Still regularly kicking ass in my CPLT-C4, CTF-3D, JM6-S, JM6-DD, JR7-F, STK-5M, HM, etc, etc ,etc ... and not feeling like I "need" to take a clan mech.

[That Dawg]

Willard Phule, on 07 July 2014 - 04:14 AM, said:

I hear you, man. I don't drop in groups, so I've seen the roflstomp parade in the PUG every single day.

But, you know, it's not the Clan tech that's doing it.

Which is the main reason that I say the pugstomps are "working as intended." If PGI didn't want the pugstomps to happen, they'd fix it.

Which is kind of funny, considering. When was the last time you saw a PGI guy in the public queue as a SOLO DROPPER? I can't say I've ever seen it.

I'm thinking those clan mechs, now maxed/elited out are really quite the show. I try and see who is last man standing with the most damage/kills, lately its been clan mechs, and ecm lights of any flavor

agreed, PGI could fix the pugstomp by simply using an existing algorithm match maker

I see PGI dropping solo, but I do wonder how many have fake accounts to avoid the attention of having a tag that indicates you are one of the problems, not one of the solutions.

[Heeden]

MischiefSC, on 07 July 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

This. Hunchies are small and unobtrusive. Alone people will jump all up in one. You see one back and a bit behind a Timber Wolf, Atlas or other face-eater and you'll pencil him in down the list some. You're up on a hill with 2 PPCs in your Cicada and you see the backs of a TWolf, Hunchie and a Dire Wolf it's no hard guess who he pops in the back. No way of knowing if that Hunchie is a nutbar with an XL or smarty with a standard and the CT is narrow at range and from behind.

You ride shotgun for someone who's going to draw a lot of fire. Then you lean out and give them a rude, painful surprise. At which time they remember a tad too late just what a stupid mount of grief you can stuff in a Hunchie on almost any chassis. Armor up front, quick enough to to nip around your wing leader and WHAM.

BJs can't take a hit and Shawks draw fire - they get mistaken for Summoners, Banshees, etc. at range. Tall, lanky and menacing pokey bits. People give a Hunchie a pass when it's in meaner looking company. It's a bad mistake. The KDR on my AC20 Hunchie is better than any of my other mediums - specifically for this reason. Play quiet, play back, ride shotgun and wait for a good driveby.

Sounds like my experiences in a Centurion, and whilst it lacks the pin-point kick of an AC20 the 3 missiles in the chest can put some serious hurt on anyone in range. It also has magic pixies that makes sure the arms always drop off first, then distribute any incoming shots evenly across the torso components. I have no qualms about taking an XL engine on mine because usually by the time a torso piece pops the others are stripped and deep orange anyway.

[KingCobra]

I find clan mechs a fun challenge to kill on most of my IS assaults and Heavy's they don't Overpower me but mediums and lights yes they do outgun me.But the biggest reason there kind of OP to IS mechs is they must have very small hit-boxes and 4x armor defensive capability than my IS mechs my IS mechs armor is like butter and the my IS hitboxes are huge so IS mechsare inferior.

So hit and run use cover and try not to get into a 1v1 even a timber wolf can kill my atlas if he is lucky and I have a 80+ alpha shot which he just shrugs off and laughs at.PGI needs to make all the IS mechs better as far as making the hitboxes smaller and armor more to balance the clan mechs.

Or OP hunt in a pack get a wing to drop with into battles 2v1 they=clan cant win as easy.

[Marmon Rzohr]

Cion, on 06 July 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

So I rarely make any quick judgements. I never complained about the LRMpocalipse, SRMgeddon, the PPC/AC stuff, jumsniping, LRMpocalipse2, etc. I always found a way around it, tactics, loadouts, etc. Sure, maybe not as efficient, but did a decent job.

I did not complain about the Clan mechs. Yes, the devs did it relatively good, making longer laser durations, and different lrm mechanics so they are not totally OP.

When clans came out, I could still hold my own vs some. Many TBs were just simply cocky and that killed em. Direwolves got LRMd to death, etc.

These last few days though, I am finally starting to *feel* outgunned. Doesnt matter what mech I take, there is a better, faster, more powerful (BY A LOT) Clan mech out there. It feels like my IS mechs are just outclassed in every arena, speed, mobility, guns, etc.

Dunno if its clan players having finally mastered their clan mechs, or just more experience, or something.

Any suggestions on how to take the fight to those clan mechs on IS mechs? tactics, loadouts, etc? I'm running out of ideas.

On a side note, I've always liked making the underdog mech work. I've piloted Awesomes to decent success when everyone hated them. At the moment though, I cant seem to make IS mechs work vs Clans.

Thanks.

PS: let's avoid starting a new "this is OP", I'm looking for new ideas. thnx.
edit: bold the actual question so ppl know this is not a whine thread but seeking new ideas thread. gosh.

--------------------------------
For those interested, here are some ideas given here that I'll try (sorry I can't put all of them)
-focus more on pinpoint damage (Gauss, AC 10, etc).
-focus on side torsos rather than center torso
-attack from a different vertical plane (apparently clan mechs dont have that great of vertical twist)
-new builds (see the smurfy links below)
-JJs!!!!!

edit 2: added a quick summary of some responses.

Ok, so my suggestions would be to use IS lights if you like them, the Clan lights are almost cannon fodder in a 1vs1light fight.

Also my suggestion would be to use the tanky designs the IS has to offer: the Victor, Highlander, Shadowhawk (Griffin ? Haven't played it) and the Stalker.
These mechs simply outclass most the Clan designs by layout and hitboxes giving you an edge in staying power.

My final suggestion would be to utilize the "DPS sniping" advantage the IS has. In PUG games the regular PPCs and ACs give you so much more sustained firepower to lay down - which is important as carrying PUG games is often a race in damage you can do to the enemy before they do damage to you and your team.

A couple of nights ago I hopped into my Victor for the first time in long while of Clan testing and while it does feel sluggish compared to the Timber Wolf, the convergence and the DPS is just so nice to have. I did about 1.1k damage in around 6 min (no strikes). This is something that the Timber Wolf simply could not do.

[Pjwned]

As far as speed is concerned, if you find clan mechs are going faster than you then you're likely going very slow for IS mech standards, so maybe try putting a bigger engine in. Also, even though clan weapons are pretty lightweight but still powerful (meaning they can fit in even more additional firepower) it is for the most part balanced by ripple fire on LRMs & autocannons, and longer beam durations for lasers and other quirks as well.

[BOWMANGR]

Ursh, on 07 July 2014 - 01:11 AM, said:

I keep seeing these very self-confident posts from people talking about how great that ac20 hback is, but I keep on seeing hbacks running around in game missing the half of their mech that contains that gun, either from me or from someone else being kind enough to remove it for them.

Am I living in some parallel universe where I'm the only person who understands that you can shoot the ac20 hback torso from three different sides, or four if I have any kind of elevation advantage from terrain or JJ? Torso twist all you want, but you'll be saying goodbye to that hunch as soon as someone competent decides they want it gone.

In that parallel universe of yours Hunchback pilots rush in and get their hunch destroyed ASAP.

In the 'other' parallel universe a flash from a Hunchback's right torso will be the very last thing you'll see coming from behind that Atlas you were shooting at, a millisecond before seeing the "You have been destroyed" screen.

[Tom Sawyer]

I like my DD jag. I stick with the main blob in pug drops. Ambush from the side or even plink from mid range by dancing from side to side. Often I can get close and then let loose with the triple 5's and triple MG's. As a chainsaw it can quickly wreck even direwhales. Just do not try to stand in front. Keep moving and firing.

[Kitane]

Pjwned, on 07 July 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

As far as speed is concerned, if you find clan mechs are going faster than you then you're likely going very slow for IS mech standards, so maybe try putting a bigger engine in. Also, even though clan weapons are pretty lightweight but still powerful (meaning they can fit in even more additional firepower) it is for the most part balanced by ripple fire on LRMs & autocannons, and longer beam durations for lasers and other quirks as well.

Clan lights and Dire Whale are slow.

Clan heavies and mediums are definitely not slow by IS standards, they can keep up with or even outrun majority of typical medium/heavy IS builds.

[Gyrok]

ArmandTulsen, on 06 July 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

OP, that feeling you're experiencing... I got news for you:

It's not a feeling. It's the reality of the situation.

You ARE outgunned.

This is pure FUD. Yes, the DPS is higher, but you have to stay on target much longer...which means you are exposed much longer.

[Lykaon]

Many clan mechs have poor arm articulation meaning they do not handle horizontal as well as vertical.This coupled with a higher volume of burst and beam weapons means rapid sweeping motions at closer ranges give an advantage to the I.S. mechs in brawling ranges.

The Clan speed advantage is concentrated in the medium and heavy weight classes with the Timberwolf Summoner and Stormcrow possessing faster than average speeds for their I.S. counterparts.On these specific mechs it is actually a decent plan to leg them.They can torso twist all day the legs do not benefit from this technique.

Also,just because you legged them does not mean you need to finish them right that instant.Removing the speed from these mechs will cause the clan forces to get split and isolated if they are not careful.Wait be patient and those legged mechs will become isolated and easier to take down.

Plan on having to deal with LRMs.The lower weight and critical costs for clan LRMs makes it far more likely they will be running multi role builds that have brawling and LRM capabilities.Bring AMS and radar dep. modules.

With only two light mechs available and one of those with ECM capability be prepared to have ECM on clan mechs.Bring UAVs to help counter this.


The advantages you need to negate are superior range,superior DPS and flexability in builds (low tonnage/crit missiles allow for ease in multirole builds).

Most of this is handled by actually getting very close to engage.The really nasty DPS is concentrated on the Direwolf and fortunatley it handles like a beached whale.The heavies and mediums posses the highest threat potential in close quarters with the ability to either keep pace or out manuver the I.S. brawlers so legging is not such a bad idea.

Concentration of firepower on targets is a must for quick ellimination of high DPS clan threats.The clan mechs may posses 50% more fire power but three I.S. mechs firing in concert will bring them down fast.

And most importantly communicate with your team to I.D. high priority targets and focus them.

[Kitane]

Gyrok, on 07 July 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

This is pure FUD. Yes, the DPS is higher, but you have to stay on target much longer...which means you are exposed much longer.

Great for IS poptarts with PPC/AC combos, not so great advantage for other IS builds...