125 replies to this topic

[Marmon Rzohr]

Davegt27, on 08 July 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

hear is a crazy question what if you paid real money for your jump jets and they get down graded two days later what then?

All the Clan mechs will still be excellent. In general loadouts will change across the board, but JJs will still be useful.

[Bishop Steiner]

kapusta11, on 08 July 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

Dealing random damage due to spread (aim penalties)/damaging legs/generating extra heat with already bad heat system while poptarting and landing pinpoint alphas while hill humping, hmm.. what will I choose?

if you can't control the conditions for jumpsniping, obvious the other route. On the other hand, my suggested fix, which was to add .5 second of reticle shake after thrust is cut, does not take away the ability to aim for those with skill.

It DOES force them to jump higher, and be exposed longer to HAVE that stable shot window, meaning it is not all reward, no risk, like it is currently (yes I am using hyperbole, as I feel your post was), but it is eminently doable. What Jump heat and leg damage does is force people to a) use sufficient jets to achieve a shot window AND retain enough thrust to cushion the landing, and with heat, slow down the potential DPS of poptarting.

None of which removes it's viability, but does make less than the absolute optimal combat mode it currently is. It will indeed not be a good choice for the Steering Wheel Underhive, but then, it shouldn't be, anyhow, as the tactic should require skill. It also will fit in better as in incidental tactic, used while on the move and into other combat ranges, instead of the premiere, all day, all the time tactic is currently is.

If the concept of being exposed to more return fire, and needing to actually cushion your landings means you feel you can't poptart anymore, tbh, you were never really very good at it.

Davegt27, on 08 July 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

hear is a crazy question what if you paid real money for your jump jets and they get down graded two days later what then?

F2P. All things subject to change. It's in the disclaimer you agreed to at the beginning. At no place was a specific function accrued to the products bought in any package. They could not, for example, remove the Timber Wolf S, at this point, as it was part of the advertised package. They can indeed alter it's functionality.

Also, if you aid specifically to get access to something that was unbroken and unbalanced, you don't really deserve any sympathy.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 July 2014 - 11:25 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

The more I think about it the more I wonder if we are just fighting the wrong battle. That its not pin point damage from jump sniping its pin point damage from all long range weopons. If jump jets were gone you would have the same meta with hill humpers. Seems like we just need to make long range weopons less pin point. At some point in tuning there will be a real balance with sniping and close brawling across the ELO range.

[SilentWolff]

Worst thing about this JJ nerf is half the goddamn time I'm using jump jets to get unstuck from the overpowered pebble in the road that stops my 75 ton mech dead in it's tracks.

Edited by SilentWolff, 08 July 2014 - 12:09 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

XX Sulla XX, on 08 July 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

The more I think about it the more I wonder if we are just fighting the wrong battle. That its not pin point damage from jump sniping its pin point damage from all long range weopons. If jump jets were gone you would have the same meta with hill humpers. Seems like we just need to make long range weopons less pin point. At some point in tuning there will be a real balance with sniping and close brawling across the ELO range.

most people on here have been fighting the wrong war from the get go, and still can't see it.

That said, the things that need change, are the ones least likely to happen, like re-introduction of imperfect convergence.

That said, the more physics we can see added, the less Gundam silly exploits available, the happier, I'll be.


This game will never be a Sim, because the controls are too simple, but there is no reason we can't bit by bit build a sim like environment, even if too many seem enamored of the arcadey feel of current play.

[Caviel]

XX Sulla XX, on 08 July 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

The more I think about it the more I wonder if we are just fighting the wrong battle.

I've been saying this for a long time, although the answer in my opinion is the heat system. Here's my fixes:

• Remove heat scaling/ghost heat
  
• All mechs have a max 30 points of heat for 100% heat
  
• No more crit free heat sink storage for large mechs. You get 10 in the engine, engines smaller than 250 rating still require external heat sink space.
  
• Mechs get a 5% reduction in turning, stopping, accelerating, arm movement, top speed, and torso twist rate at 50% (15) heat. Ammo has a 2% chance of internal explosion (checked once per critical)
  
• Mechs get a 10% reduction (not cumulative with 5% penalty) in turning, stopping, accelerating, arm movement, top speed, and torso twist rate at 75% (22.5) heat. Ammo has a 5% chance of internal explosion (checked once per critical)
  
• Mechs auto shutdown at 90% (27) heat unless overridden prior to reaching 90%
  
• Mechs take CT internal damage for any heat going past 100%, scaling upward to instant CT death at 150% (45) heat
  
• Remove bonus heat capacity for additional heat sinks
  
• Make all DHS dissipate 2 heat per second
  
• Implement better falling damage to legs. The bigger velocity change when hitting the ground, the more damage both legs take. A certain amout of "play" would be given so that mechs dropping a short distance, running over rocky terrain, or in a controlled JJ landing would take no leg damage. Say 10% of max speed as a velocity change would be damage free. Close to what we have now, just better tuned
  
• All jump jets generate scaling heat similar to flamers, with the higher class JJs using a sharper curve
  
• Reduce duration of pulse lasers to 50% of standard versions, at 120% damage, operating at 150% heat of normal versions

Take the more current 2 AC/5, 2 PPC meta. One alpha would put a mech at 22 heat, or 73% heat. That's a 2% chance of each ton of the AC/5 ammo going boom, and a 5% reduction in performance. Any other factors like a hot ambient temperature map, or jump jetting at the time of the alpha strike, would likely put the mech over the 75% threshold and incurring the related penalties. A 3 AC/5, 2PPC alpha would put a mech at 23 heat, or 76% with a single alpha, before other heat generation factors.

This puts more impetus on balanced builds, meters heat generation far better that ghost heat tried to do in an overly complex and ineffectual way, and emphasizes more of the inherent benefits/drawbacks on using the different weapon types. It also returns alpha strikes to a desperation move and not a standard method of shooting. Single vs Double heat sinks return to a tradeoff between space and tonnage as intended.

With this system, who cares about pinpoint damage for high alpha strikes when it runs a very high chance of immediately shutting the frankenmech down, or causing half a mech to get blown off due to internal ammo explosion. All the mechs keeping ammo in the legs are at even greater risk since you can't C.A.S.E. legs and could possibly leg yourself in the process of an alpha strike.

[Demoncard]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 July 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

People were getting a buzz/high from using jumpjets?

People were seriously using one jumpjet? As in, not just in joke builds, or unfinished builds? I assume this is a poptart nerf and won't affect regular JJ users (an in, for manoevring around the map, and moving around other mechs, ie other than poptarting) too much.

[El Bandito]

XX Sulla XX, on 08 July 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

The more I think about it the more I wonder if we are just fighting the wrong battle. That its not pin point damage from jump sniping its pin point damage from all long range weopons. If jump jets were gone you would have the same meta with hill humpers. Seems like we just need to make long range weopons less pin point. At some point in tuning there will be a real balance with sniping and close brawling across the ELO range.

Actually, we had been fighting that battle since 2012. Delayed convergence is an old idea, which has been raised time and time again in the forums. PGI just does not listen. They would rather cater to the mass.

With the improved hit reg, we should press PGI again to implement delayed convergence.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 July 2014 - 01:49 PM.

[Alexandrix]

SilentWolff, on 08 July 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

Worst thing about this JJ nerf is half the goddamn time I'm using jump jets to get unstuck from the overpowered pebble in the road that stops my 75 ton mech dead in it's tracks.

lol so much of this.
I'm so far beyond tired of dozens of tons of walking metal monstrosity coming to a dead stop because my pinky toe brushed against an object the size of a water melon,or dared to try walking up a 5 degree incline.

As if dire wolf's aren't clunky and cumbersome enough to drive.Look out for that shrubbery!!

Edited by Alexandrix, 08 July 2014 - 02:09 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Actually, we had been fighting that battle since 2012. Delayed convergence is an old idea, which has been raised time and time again in the forums. PGI just does not listen. They would rather cater to the mass.

With the improved hit reg, we should press PGI again to implement delayed convergence.

I was more talking about long range fire only. I know there has been a lot of talk about convergence. But I am more concerned with the balance between long range and short range builds. I am worried much less about how fast mechs die and over all convergence.

[Davegt27]

Quote

Davegt27, on 08 July 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

hear is a crazy question what if you paid real money for your jump jets and they get down graded two days later what then?
F2P. All things subject to change. It's in the disclaimer you agreed to at the beginning. At no place was a specific function accrued to the products bought in any package. They could not, for example, remove the Timber Wolf S, at this point, as it was part of the advertised package. They can indeed alter it's functionality.

Also, if you aid specifically to get access to something that was unbroken and unbalanced, you don't really deserve any sympathy.

[color="#000000"] [/color]
[color="#000000"][color=#222222]Oh I am not complaining just asking a question. I love Jump snipping (aka ***** shooting) they jump up so my buddies and I can get a clear shot. I won’t spend real money either just wondering if they open themselves up to a lawsuit, I would hate for this fun to end (making up for all the crap $65 games I bought over the years ha ha)[/color][/color]

[MoonGlum Ebon]

These jump jets here are no where similar to mw4 jjs, in my fast ryoken I would use a hill and jj high enough diagonally to all the peeps hiding to zap then in the head.
Light mechs could achieve truly epic hang time.

[ByteHacker]

I honestly think that the nerf would affect jump brawlers the most. Jump brawlers often need the extra mobility and agility from jump jets. Any mistakes often translate into one's demise. Where else pop tarts are just jump,shoot,hide and repeat.

I personally take 7x JJ's in my Griffin-3M "Land Air Mech" Just so that I can take very unconventional routes and do fly-bys to flank heavier mechs that just don't have the twisting and pitching ability to take me down. One of the things one can do with 7 x JJ's is being able to clear a whole ridge on Canyon network and still have fuel when landing on the other side.

[SgtMagor]

dang, I don't think I ever had the chance to use my Griffins yet. anyway, I think that's the problem I had when they first announced these jump jet nerfs. The Brawlers are the ones that are going to sux wind over this.

[Lindonius]

Prezimonto, on 08 July 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

I still want my mobile brawler back. I wish they'd tune the height vs. distance ratio of jj mech to mech. A mech like the Victor might be able to effectively jump turn, cross distances, and fall from heights well, but climbing might be a chore (takes a long time to gain height vs. forward and side to side momentum). While a mech like:

-Catapults might be good at gaining height, but poor at forward momentum... good for positioning, bad for horizontal mobility.

-a Griffons might be decent at both.

-a Spider might be great at everything.

ect...

A huge part of the problem is the idea that we treat all mechs as created equal with how they use jump jets.

This would require programming. (see previous post on this thread.)

[MischiefSC]

Each JJ in tabletop provides one 'height'. A 'height' is about half the height of a mech - level 2 buildings for example block LOS.

So 1 JJ should get you wait high, with no fuel for the landing. Two JJs will get you over a mech. Three, over a mech and a safe landing, etc.

[kapusta11]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 July 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

if you can't control the conditions for jumpsniping, obvious the other route. On the other hand, my suggested fix, which was to add .5 second of reticle shake after thrust is cut, does not take away the ability to aim for those with skill.

It DOES force them to jump higher, and be exposed longer to HAVE that stable shot window, meaning it is not all reward, no risk, like it is currently (yes I am using hyperbole, as I feel your post was), but it is eminently doable. What Jump heat and leg damage does is force people to a) use sufficient jets to achieve a shot window AND retain enough thrust to cushion the landing, and with heat, slow down the potential DPS of poptarting.

None of which removes it's viability, but does make less than the absolute optimal combat mode it currently is. It will indeed not be a good choice for the Steering Wheel Underhive, but then, it shouldn't be, anyhow, as the tactic should require skill. It also will fit in better as in incidental tactic, used while on the move and into other combat ranges, instead of the premiere, all day, all the time tactic is currently is.

If the concept of being exposed to more return fire, and needing to actually cushion your landings means you feel you can't poptart anymore, tbh, you were never really very good at it.


F2P. All things subject to change. It's in the disclaimer you agreed to at the beginning. At no place was a specific function accrued to the products bought in any package. They could not, for example, remove the Timber Wolf S, at this point, as it was part of the advertised package. They can indeed alter it's functionality.

Also, if you aid specifically to get access to something that was unbroken and unbalanced, you don't really deserve any sympathy.

That's the way people like you base their opinion - on assumptions. You think I'm a bad player, you think your solution will work, but believe me, as long as exposute time while jumping is several times less than hill humping, there will be people who will adapt to small firing window and I'll be one of them, QQ will go on. I don't need assumtions I base my opinion on facts, my words are true both on paper and in game, look at Highlander and see for yourself. PGI just too stupid to realize they've actually made something right, but that's another story.

[Bishop Steiner]

kapusta11, on 08 July 2014 - 11:56 PM, said:

That's the way people like you base their opinion - on assumptions. You think I'm a bad player, you think your solution will work, but believe me, as long as exposute time while jumping is several times less than hill humping, there will be people who will adapt to small firing window and I'll be one of them, QQ will go on. I don't need assumtions I base my opinion on facts, my words are true both on paper and in game, look at Highlander and see for yourself. PGI just too stupid to realize they've actually made something right, but that's another story.

Congrats...the whole point! SOME WILL ADAPT. But in no way, if you insist on trying to be a full time poptart, will you be as efficient as before. WHich is the idea. Keep the tactic as viable, especially in hands of skilled players, but make it less efficient. Bañlance teeters on a razors edge, and swings pretty easy, when it's adjusted in the right areas.

And yes, if you think you would be as effective a jumpsniper as you are right at this moment, you are indeed incorrect. Simple math tells you that. But you could still be effective.

That is PGIs desire, that is mine.

[Trauglodyte]

Vassago Rain, on 07 July 2014 - 11:54 PM, said:

Even if people had to carry 10 jets around, they're still far superior to walking robots. Walking robots are also further gimped by getting stuck on rocks, cars, trees, beaches, each other, junk, edges of textures, spots that look clear, water...

You could say that walking suffered a serious gimp, and now only flying robots are viable. What I bet will happen is not a nerf to jets and flying bots, or a fix to walking bots, but merely a similar system to the walking one, only applied to jets. So you'll randomly explode when using your jets, or a magical wind will blow you off course. Perhaps there could be ghost jump jet fuel, or ghost flight distance. Make it as annoying as possible for everybody.

It's the only way for all types of robots to be equal, after all.

This is the really big problem that has bothered me, possibly even vexed (oh yes, I said it!), since Beta. Granted, that was the time when mechs only needed one JJ to be effective which is ironically where we still are now. The problem, though, is that engines largely determine agility and performance stats on mechs. So, when you compare a Raven 3L with a Jenner, both sporting the same max engine, they have the same performance stats. Any differences in accel/decel is so minimal as to largely be unnoticeable. This is an extreme problem because the Raven can't simply hit a button and ignore physics like the Jenner can. The situation only gets worse the heavier the mech gets.

What I think really needs to happen is that:

• Mechs stop gaining performance bonuses, aside from Speed, attached to engine sizes once they exceed their stock limits
  
• Land locked mechs either get a boost to agility and accel/decel stats or land locked mechs get a nerf
  
• Land locked mechs get their terrain physics modifiers reduced OR the application of JJs to a mech increases said stats so that they struggle more with terrain

Regardless, something needs to be done to make it so that land locked mechs aren't 2nd hand cousins because that has been the way of things for the past 2+ years. And, nobody with any kind of logical sense above that of a goat can argue otherwise.

[Prezimonto]

Lindonius, on 07 July 2014 - 10:43 PM, said:

This would require programming. Don't make me say PGI.

And programming in the same sentence.

To be fair, I don't think it's their skills in programming that lack entirely. I think they're understaffed in that department, and their design team has some fairly bad ideas to implement via programming.

I also don't see what's wrong with suggesting a real solution, perhaps even an ideal one (actual differing flight profiles for mechs). I realize it would be more work, but what they're already doing is more programming to alter how JJ work.

At least the fix I suggested doesn't require art work changes on top of programming changes.