125 replies to this topic

[Agent of Change]

El Bandito, on 07 July 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

Hasn't that always been the case. Everything, from JJ tweaks to twist speed, to leg damage, have been hurting jump brawlers more than the poptarts.

Well yeah because the issue has never been Jump Jets It's been Convergence that allows for instant universal PPFLD alphas. But PGI is so up it's own ass attacking symptoms and flat out refusing to even consider the issue of the real original problem that we will never see it actually be fixed.

[Gyrok]

Ultimatum X, on 07 July 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

This will be interesting.

I suspect VTR will remain unchallenged in it's current poptart tier.

TBR Gauss (3T Ammo) + 2x cERPPC can probably shave at least one more ton (it's getting close - but it can probably spare 2 tons) to get a second JJ, but the heat might cause serious issues regardless.

CTF-3D might be able to adapt.


Now if they could just tone down 30 points hitting a nipple sized pinpoint - we might see some other playstyles move up a rung or two.

What trickery is this? If you see a timber wolf with gauss + 2xCERPPC, he is running 2.5T ammo with 2 JJs. All that with 44 leg armor. Keep in mind, it takes 40 or so armor points to gain a ton on the TW too. It was never a great build because of constraints on the chassis. Now it will be full on gimped, meanwhile the best jump mechs in the game will still be able to make twitch shots with PP FLD, and will still mount enough JJs to matter. This does nothing to the victor but further nerf brawling and further reinforce it as a jump snipe only mech.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 July 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

Well, I thought they said JJ Heat was coming with this last patch...sooooo...

[Bilbo]

LordKnightFandragon, on 08 July 2014 - 06:42 AM, said:

Well, I thought they said JJ Heat was coming with this last patch...sooooo...

No. they said they were pushing it back because they didn't want to introduce the heat and falling damage at the same time.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

As with everything PGI does, I need to see it to know whether it's going to work or not.

I will say, the last patch and Clan release has given me some faith they may have gotten their act together.

But we'll see.

[Cerlin]

All mechs will now have the highlanders JJ profile? Amazing!

For anyone who thinks this will not work, try a highlander with 1 Jumpjet. Then compare to 2-3+, it is a huge difference. I normally run 2-3 jumpjets or more so I look forward to this change very much. The new fall damage change has also been amazing for someone who normally feathers. The major issue is fast mediums and lights getting fall damage from running horizontally which is bullcrap, but russ already tweeted they are going to change this next patch.

[hercules1981]

El Bandito, on 07 July 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

My Meta DS has 4 JJs equipped all the time. Try again, Russ.

I think the point is to make u take all those jets to do it because u have to sacrifice something for it. Heat efficiency or speed or ammo or a combination of all 3. Let's face it the mech will still be effective. Not as much as before FACT!

[BARBAR0SSA]

Not sure how everyone knows this will fail already, what if 4 JJs on a heavies and assaults add a bunch of extra heat, it won't REMOVE pop tarts but it sure as hell will slow them down a lot, dual PPC+Guass TW....yikes that would be even hotter.

If it drops a tart from doing say 900 dmg on avg down to 500 that's fairly effective without removing a viable method of fighting.

[Biaxialrain]

Good.

[Alistair Winter]

Vassago Rain, on 07 July 2014 - 08:34 PM, said:

Only took them a year and a half.

This.

[Prezimonto]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 July 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

jump turning on the bigger ones hadn't been too effective for awhile. If they are keeping the VTR nerfed in that regard, I would prefer it be a little more even handed, TBH.

I still want my mobile brawler back. I wish they'd tune the height vs. distance ratio of jj mech to mech. A mech like the Victor might be able to effectively jump turn, cross distances, and fall from heights well, but climbing might be a chore (takes a long time to gain height vs. forward and side to side momentum). While a mech like:

-Catapults might be good at gaining height, but poor at forward momentum... good for positioning, bad for horizontal mobility.

-a Griffons might be decent at both.

-a Spider might be great at everything.

ect...

A huge part of the problem is the idea that we treat all mechs as created equal with how they use jump jets.

[El Bandito]

shad0w4life, on 08 July 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Not sure how everyone knows this will fail already, what if 4 JJs on a heavies and assaults add a bunch of extra heat, it won't REMOVE pop tarts but it sure as hell will slow them down a lot, dual PPC+Guass TW....yikes that would be even hotter. If it drops a tart from doing say 900 dmg on avg down to 500 that's fairly effective without removing a viable method of fighting.

4 JJs on my DS is only 4 tons. And believe me, it never cut my damage or kill by half, like you mentioned. I did not even notice any damage reduction. I simply changed the UAC5+AC5 to AC5x2 and there was no difference in heat. Jamming was getting on my nerves anyway.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 July 2014 - 07:14 AM.

[Kitane]

If I hit the ground with high enough fall speed, I expect that my mech's legs will be damaged.

But if I land on another mech and my legs get damaged, it would be nice to do say 1.5x times of that damage to the enemy.

DFA, baby!

[DarthPeanut]

Should be interesting to see how much they nerfed them.

Reduced height range might actually be helpful for my 1 JJ mechs. Helpful in that now they do not let me jump high enough to achieve fall damage drop speeds from free fall landings. Might even bump to 2 on some depending on the results.

The heat increase is just an all around loser for everyone but jump snipers should be able to manage heat better than the jump brawlers.

[Prezimonto]

Kitane, on 08 July 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

If I hit the ground with high enough fall speed, I expect that my mech's legs will be damaged.

But if I land on another mech and my legs get damaged, it would be nice to do say 1.5x times of that damage to the enemy.

DFA, baby!

One of the really, really, great things about giving mechs different flight profiles (like above) would be that DFA could come back for mechs, and not instantly make the mech better at poptarting.

Even better than an damage multiplier: if mechs with low flight profiles(or very slow rise) received a general damage reduction to leg damage taken from collisions with the feet. Still take some, but deal appropriate damage to anything you land upon.

[Bilbo]

DarthPeanut, on 08 July 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

...
The heat increase is just an all around loser for everyone but jump snipers should be able to manage heat better than the jump brawlers.

Here's the rub. Jump snipers become jump brawlers if you have the balls to find a way to brawling range. They have been entirely too good at both for entirely too long. I'd hope that the heat increase will increase the time between their alphas nicely, allowing brawling builds a noticeable advantage when they get there.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bilbo, on 08 July 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

Here's the rub. Jump snipers become jump brawlers if you have the balls to find a way to brawling range. They have been entirely too good at both for entirely too long. I'd hope that the heat increase will increase the time between their alphas nicely, allowing brawling builds a noticeable advantage when they get there.

That would be best case scenario.

I still think half the problem is the way maps are set up and the lack of objectives.

It promotes poptarting.

[Bishop Steiner]

DarthPeanut, on 08 July 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

Should be interesting to see how much they nerfed them.

Reduced height range might actually be helpful for my 1 JJ mechs. Helpful in that now they do not let me jump high enough to achieve fall damage drop speeds from free fall landings. Might even bump to 2 on some depending on the results.

The heat increase is just an all around loser for everyone but jump snipers should be able to manage heat better than the jump brawlers.

the VTR (C) supposedly only gets like 5.7 meters from it's 1 JJ already, so hopefully, we see some consistency with that.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bilbo, on 08 July 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

Here's the rub. Jump snipers become jump brawlers if you have the balls to find a way to brawling range. They have been entirely too good at both for entirely too long. I'd hope that the heat increase will increase the time between their alphas nicely, allowing brawling builds a noticeable advantage when they get there.

and every single "fix", again , won't cover every issue. Fall damage covers one aspect (though it needs and is receiving fixes), heat and scaling another.

Poptarting itself, won't be "nerfed" until they address aiming while airborne, be it with my idea for extended reticle shake for .5 second after thrust is cut, global "Aerial CoF" (which actually doesn't hurt lights or brawlers much, as at the ranges they are shooting most weapons fire will be in a pretty tight cone) or some other manner.

Poptarts notwithstanding, these are changes that have needed implementing, and while people may complain how long it has taken (and of course, others will complain that they have to adapt, QQ, wah wah), it's better late than never.

in a perfect world, yes, all these little aspects would have been done in CB to Beta. In a perfect world, PGI would have 3x the manpower and 10x the budget. In THIS world, we are actually fortunate to HAVE a new MW title, at all. (Enter pining and QQ for MW:LL form the whole 12 people who played it, HERE)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 July 2014 - 07:45 AM.

[Bilbo]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 July 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

and every single "fix", again , won't cover every issue. Fall damage covers one aspect (though it needs and is receiving fixes), heat and scaling another.

Poptarting itself, won't be "nerfed" until they address aiming while airborne, be it with my idea for extended reticle shake for .5 second after thrust is cut, global "Aerial CoF" (which actually doesn't hurt lights or brawlers much, as at the ranges they are shooting most weapons fire will be in a pretty tight cone) or some other manner.

Poptarts notwithstanding, these are changes that have needed implementing, and while people may complain how long it has taken (and of course, others will complain that they have to adapt, QQ, wah wah), it's better late than never.

in a perfect world, yes, all these little aspects would have been done in CB to Beta. In a perfect world, PGI would have 3x the manpower and 10x the budget. In THIS world, we are actually fortunate to HAVE a new MW title, at all. (Enter pining and QQ for MW:LL form the whole 12 people who played it, HERE)

I don't need nor want poptarting itself to be nerfed. It should be a viable play style. I want builds built specifically for it to have disadvantages when they are forced to brawl. The more recent changes coupled with the ones coming up will hopefully do that nicely. With any luck it will actually be a bad idea to have an entire team full of them, relegating poptarting to a role rather than the be all end all.