125 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

Lindonius, on 07 July 2014 - 10:43 PM, said:

This would require programming. Don't make me say PGI.

And programming in the same sentence.

LOL!

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

I don't understand why people are so damn defensive about JJs. "It will destroy jumpbrawling".
Well, right now mechs with JJ are just flat out better than mechs without them. Investing 1-2 tons gives them an advantage in brawling that a non JJ mech can't even imagine in its wildest dreams. Everyone just compares jumpsniping to jumpbrawling without mentioning that jumpbrawling is alot better than "normal" brawling in every single way while only costing 1-2 tons.

In my case I always use 4+. On a Victor or TW that is 4 tons plus 4 slots. That is a large amount of fire power or heat sinks. Now say the changes forces me to bring 4 more heat sinks. Then it is 8 tons + the module to have jump jets. Plus on my TW I twist slower and my missles fire slower and I take more heat damage.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Who cares...Raven-3L ftw .

[Khobai]

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The question is, how many jets will one need to reach the same height as we do now? (i.e. what will the "cutoff" point be).

Id say a fair guess is 3-4 JJs will have the same effect 2 JJs do now.

[Vassago Rain]

meteorol, on 07 July 2014 - 10:10 PM, said:

I don't understand why people are so damn defensive about JJs. "It will destroy jumpbrawling".
Well, right now mechs with JJ are just flat out better than mechs without them. Investing 1-2 tons gives them an advantage in brawling that a non JJ mech can't even imagine in its wildest dreams. Everyone just compares jumpsniping to jumpbrawling without mentioning that jumpbrawling is alot better than "normal" brawling in every single way while only costing 1-2 tons.

They're flying robots. Of course they'll have an advantage over walking robots.

It's like saying 'this robot with ECM has an advantage over this robot without!' Duh. It has extra stuff and capabilities, so of course it's got an advantage.

[meteorol]

Vassago Rain, on 07 July 2014 - 11:24 PM, said:

They're flying robots. Of course they'll have an advantage over walking robots.

It's like saying 'this robot with ECM has an advantage over this robot without!' Duh. It has extra stuff and capabilities, so of course it's got an advantage.

But that extra stuff should have extra costs. A price for the advantage. Right now those extra costs are too low. 1 JJ gives more advantages than it should for the costs. The issue was never that JJ mechs are better, the issue is that they are better while having to invest pretty much nothing. And those JJ fixes will adress that.

[Vassago Rain]

meteorol, on 07 July 2014 - 11:48 PM, said:

But that extra stuff should have extra costs. A price for the advantage. Right now those extra costs are too low. 1 JJ gives more advantages than it should for the costs. The issue was never that JJ mechs are better, the issue is that they are better while having to invest pretty much nothing. And those JJ fixes will adress that.

Even if people had to carry 10 jets around, they're still far superior to walking robots. Walking robots are also further gimped by getting stuck on rocks, cars, trees, beaches, each other, junk, edges of textures, spots that look clear, water...

You could say that walking suffered a serious gimp, and now only flying robots are viable. What I bet will happen is not a nerf to jets and flying bots, or a fix to walking bots, but merely a similar system to the walking one, only applied to jets. So you'll randomly explode when using your jets, or a magical wind will blow you off course. Perhaps there could be ghost jump jet fuel, or ghost flight distance. Make it as annoying as possible for everybody.

It's the only way for all types of robots to be equal, after all.

[Kassatsu]

Pretty sure this isn't aimed at poptarts. Which is amazing because they're not even going to be affected by it, and every past change so far points to nerfing something that wasn't even the intended target, while leaving said target totally unaffected.

Random jump jet fix: Make one jump jet barely work at all (just like that silly thing called physics says it should).

Poptart fix: Remove all weapon conversion while airborne, continue crosshair shake (also noticing your aim instantly bounces to a random angle while jump jets are active) an additional one second, or until landing on the ground, whichever is first. Also cancel any targeting computer bonuses while in the air.

While I'm on the topic of targeting computers, I still fail to understand how complex aiming algorithms affect how fast a bullet flies through the air when it's identical in every way to a bullet fired from the exact same gun without said algorithms. Does it add a remote-control unit to each bullet fired so that it can slightly alter its trajectory mid-flight to avoid particularly heavy air particles or something?

Edited by Kassatsu, 08 July 2014 - 12:30 AM.

[Marmon Rzohr]

Vassago Rain, on 07 July 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

After careful consideration, and knowing how PGI works, I've figured out how they'll ruin this for everybody.

One jet won't carry you high enough to brawl. Taking multiple jets will, but this now generates magical ghost jet heat, and you'll go to 40% for having 3, and instantly explode if you bolt on 5.

The 'not near as high' simply means you won't be able to poptart a mountain side, but can still totally poptart over walls, rocks, other mechs, and anything else that's not taller than an atlas, while the brawler gundams are rendered completely worthless.

Yes it is fair if JJs cost you more weight and heat. It's fair because there is no reason to not use a mech without JJs, so PGI had a choice: give all mechs JJs or make taking JJs have a drawback. You know and actual drawback. Not 1 ton and 1 crit slot.

And why the hell would you need high jumps for brawling ? Short quick jumps are much better for spreading damage, long high jumps just mean you get legged.

When it comes to poptarts the idea is that the extra weight of more JJs and the extra heat will lower their DPS enough to make closing in an option. Nobody is trying to make poptarting impossible. And it would be lame if they did.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 08 July 2014 - 12:31 AM.

[kapusta11]

Kassatsu, on 08 July 2014 - 12:30 AM, said:

Pretty sure this isn't aimed at poptarts. Which is amazing because they're not even going to be affected by it, and every past change so far points to nerfing something that wasn't even the intended target, while leaving said target totally unaffected.

Random jump jet fix: Make one jump jet barely work at all (just like that silly thing called physics says it should).

Poptart fix: Remove all weapon conversion while airborne, continue crosshair shake (also noticing your aim instantly bounces to a random angle while jump jets are active) an additional one second, or until landing on the ground, whichever is first. Also cancel any targeting computer bonuses while in the air.

While I'm on the topic of targeting computers, I still fail to understand how complex aiming algorithms affect how fast a bullet flies through the air when it's identical in every way to a bullet fired from the exact same gun without said algorithms. Does it add a remote-control unit to each bullet fired so that it can slightly alter its trajectory mid-flight to avoid particularly heavy air particles or something?

It's not a poptart fix, it's removing poptarting altogether. Poptarting is a means of defence not offence. The moment JJs start affecting aim will be the moment people switch to high accel/deccel speed chassis and start hill humping.

If you trully want to fix poptarting (keeping it as a viable tactic) you need to increase exposure time. If you want to increase exposure time you need to reduce vertical speed hence thrust. Just look at Highlander, have you seen them lately in the same numbers as before? - this is the very proof of my point.

Edited by kapusta11, 08 July 2014 - 12:48 AM.

[badaa]

all these buffs and nerfs are a waste of time when all they need to do is fix pinpoint

[Sephlock]

I'm more concerned with how high you can go with multiple jets and how hot that will make you.

This has the potential to fix things... or to gimp everyone except the targeted group (poptarters).

Which one seems more likely, based on past results ?

[warner2]

Why should brawlers be able to jump around like battle armour if those fighting at range can't? Why shouldn't a nerf to the use of JJ for one range hurt the other range? Either we are talking multi-ton war machines that can't glide through the air on JJs or we aren't. What range you are doing it at is moot.

Now I'm totally on-board with the turning rate nerf to the Victor hurting brawlers. It did and they should remove that. The game has moved on. I'm fairly sure the Timber Wolf is quite nimble at 75 tons.

[Himmelganger]

Simple fix to the poptart problem, have a cooldown timer on weapon use, after using JJ. If you use JJ for two second you cannot fire for two second, or a varriation on that, say 2/1 or 2/1.5 or the other way 1/2 etc. You always fall faster then you accend on JJ so you would take the whole poptarting out of the game with this suggestion. JJ would be used not for fighting but for manuver. Of course Jumpbrawler would be affected too, but again, it would not be crippeling it would just mean you will have to be careful with those long tall jumps, in a brawl.

[Hammerhai]

Goodbye Jenner I loved you well. Wait. I have not been using the JJ's on that thing in about 3 months anyway.

[Karl Streiger]

Curious about that fix?
Some kind of reverse Ghost Jump calculation

[Livewyr]

My only concern with Russ's statement is just how much/what kind of effect it is going to use to achieve that goal.

There are some mechs that can only mount 3 (HGN) and at least one that I know of that can only mount 2. There are two possible crappy outcomes of this:
-Punishing mechs that can only mount 2-3 Jumpjets by giving them an itty bitty jump, period.
-Having a Universal 100% height that is achieved by mounting all the Jumpjets on your mech, (Which punishes mechs that have the ability to mount more JJs. 2JJ Jester reaching the same height as a 4 JJ CTF or 5 JJ TBR is simply punishing the other mechs, in tonnage requirement, for having more capacity to mount them.)

[SgtMagor]

the Hero IV-4 only has 2 jump jets did they just kill this mech off? Quickdraws always relied on jets to make up for there lack of firepower. just wonder how the mechs will function with this series of nerfin, since some stock mechs only have 2 or 3 jets.


The other thing that's bugging me are all sizes of jumpjets lumped into the same mold, having the same thrustxheat. we have 4 classes of mechs, iirc 4 sizes of jumpjets, shouldn't 1 assault jet have 4 times the thrust of a light mech jump jets, etc.

Edited by SgtMagor, 08 July 2014 - 03:44 AM.

[Lootee]

DivideByZer0, on 07 July 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

I always felt the MWLL jump jets were pretty close to canon, since TT rules showed JJ increases movement speed.

What TT rule would that be? The one that says a mech may only mount a maximum number of JJs to enable it to hop at its walking speed? Run speed is always walk speed × 1.5 rounded up.

Please show us how it is mathematically possible for x > (1.5x) for any integer x greater than 0.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 08 July 2014 - 06:40 AM.

[General Taskeen]

And yet Jump Jets still don't do what they are supposed to do before or after what they are adding. They did produce accumulated heat each turn in TT if you didn't stop using them, which I find funny that they are finally adding, because MW:LL already did that. In the end, JJ functionality is no where near close to what they should be capable of.