84 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

MischiefSC, on 08 July 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

... 5 and 6 LL builds were bad too (but not nearly so much so). ...

[MischiefSC]

FupDup, on 08 July 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:

If you removed the PPC builds and left the laser builds.... think about it. Not relative to the PPFLD builds but compared to, well, everything else after Ghost Heat. 4LL hitscan with no Ghost Heat certainly trumps a lot of setups - especially in the lower tier Elo.

Not everyone rolls with Fuddy Duddy in Elo town. When you're in an Elo bracket where accuracy doesn't carry PPC/ACs, hitscan is a big bonus.

Gotta think BIG, Fup.

[FupDup]

MischiefSC, on 08 July 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

If you removed the PPC builds and left the laser builds.... think about it. Not relative to the PPFLD builds but compared to, well, everything else after Ghost Heat. 4LL hitscan with no Ghost Heat certainly trumps a lot of setups - especially in the lower tier Elo.

Not everyone rolls with Fuddy Duddy in Elo town. When you're in an Elo bracket where accuracy doesn't carry PPC/ACs, hitscan is a big bonus.

Gotta think BIG, Fup.

In terms of Elo, I would probably expect myself to be on the lower end of "Mount Tryhard."



My stats page says my overall W/L ratio (the thing that Elo is based on) is 1.175...not very impressive. On my mechs page, most of them lie somewhere between 1.0 and 2.0, with a handful below it and one above. My highest W/L mech is my Dire Whale B, with a ratio of 2.14. Given this data, I think it's safe for me to conclude that I'm in the scrub tier ghetto or highest casual tier.


As for accuracy, my Inner Sphere PPC accuracy is apparently 56.31%...ouch. I can't hit the broadside of a barn. Be that as it may, I generally enjoyed my 2 ERPPC + backup weapons builds on my Thors and Novas more than my laserboat builds on them, for reasons I probably don't need to get into. My aim might be horribad beyond belief, but when those lightning bolts hit, they hit hard...

[TOGSolid]

Quote

If you removed the PPC builds and left the laser builds.... think about it. Not relative to the PPFLD builds but compared to, well, everything else after Ghost Heat. 4LL hitscan with no Ghost Heat certainly trumps a lot of setups - especially in the lower tier Elo.

The thing is that there is a huge gulf between the PPC crap we have right now and people running LLASes. Those require you to expose yourself and hold your aim steady to do the full damage. That would be a massive change in how the game is played as you could no longer just jumpjet/peakaboo your way to victory. Also, opponents on the ball would be able to properly spread that damage around via twisting.

I do love how people drag out the potential for a LLAS meta as some sort of terrible thing lurking in the shadows but let's not kid ourselves and scare the puggies, it really wouldn't be that huge of a deal. Closing on a bunch of people running LLASes is a much, much easier proposition than against a team running an assload of PP FLD. It's not even comparable really.

Edited by TOGSolid, 08 July 2014 - 08:34 PM.

[pwnface]

TOGSolid, on 08 July 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

The thing is that there is a huge gulf between the PPC crap we have right now and people running LLASes. Those require you to expose yourself and hold your aim steady to do the full damage. That would be a massive change in how the game is played as you could no longer just jumpjet/peakaboo your way to victory. Also, opponents on the ball would be able to properly spread that damage around via twisting.

I do love how people drag out the potential for a LLAS meta as some sort of terrible thing lurking in the shadows but let's not kid ourselves and scare the puggies, it really wouldn't be that huge of a deal. Closing on a bunch of people running LLASes is a much, much easier proposition than against a team running an assload of PP FLD. It's not even comparable really.

This really depends on how much damage the LLAS meta would be putting out. If LLAS were putting out significantly more damage than PPFLD builds twisting around to spread damage wouldn't really help as much. You still only have so much armor before you are completely melted. Yes, three good jump snipers focusing you is going to kill you quickly. However, imagine three 5LL mechs alpha striking those lasers on you (without ghost heat) at the same time. It's going to feel about the same. If you nerf PPFLD to be weaker than lasers this is exactly what will happen. Balance isn't so easy to achieve.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Gyrok, on 08 July 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

Then you have to do it to all ACs + PPCs, not just Gauss.

However, I seriously dislike the idea...honestly...SERIOUSLY dislike Gauss + PPC ghost heat. I think that opens pandora's box, and it treats a symptom, but does not solve the root of the issue.

People will just switch to Pure PPC builds and still wreck. I drive my warhawk prime MUCH more than my Meta direwolf. 70Kph with well over 100 damage per salvo before I have to cool off? YES PLEASE! More than enough maneuverability to keep light mechs in front of me? Outdance mediums and most heavies? enough sinks to toss up 700 damage games in Mordor?

<3 Go right ahead. A ghost heat bandaid will only make people move over to pure gauss builds or pure ppc builds or back to PPC ac5 meta.

You cannot fix frontloaded damage. it will always be the go to weapon. it always has been with this game and always will be.

[xXBagheeraXx]

pwnface, on 08 July 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

This really depends on how much damage the LLAS meta would be putting out. If LLAS were putting out significantly more damage than PPFLD builds twisting around to spread damage wouldn't really help as much. You still only have so much armor before you are completely melted. Yes, three good jump snipers focusing you is going to kill you quickly. However, imagine three 5LL mechs alpha striking those lasers on you (without ghost heat) at the same time. It's going to feel about the same. If you nerf PPFLD to be weaker than lasers this is exactly what will happen. Balance isn't so easy to achieve.

if large lasers were that powerful, why didnt we see more of them before?

I ran a 6 large laser awesome 8Q my entire early carrear with that mech up until ghost heat. As a matter of fact i grinded ALL my non missile awesomes with large laser configs. Never felt OP...just felt hotter than heck..even before ghost heat that was a high risk to reward build and extremely hot. Lasers should never have been added to the ghost heat scale. and certainly shouldnt have been capped at 2 and MOST certainly shouldn't have been tied in with large pulse lasers IS side...

[xXBagheeraXx]

TOGSolid, on 08 July 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

The thing is that there is a huge gulf between the PPC crap we have right now and people running LLASes. Those require you to expose yourself and hold your aim steady to do the full damage. That would be a massive change in how the game is played as you could no longer just jumpjet/peakaboo your way to victory. Also, opponents on the ball would be able to properly spread that damage around via twisting.

I do love how people drag out the potential for a LLAS meta as some sort of terrible thing lurking in the shadows but let's not kid ourselves and scare the puggies, it really wouldn't be that huge of a deal. Closing on a bunch of people running LLASes is a much, much easier proposition than against a team running an assload of PP FLD. It's not even comparable really.

That is exactly how I always died running that large laser Awesome. If they stayed at range i carved them up like roast turkey, If I got rushed i overheated and died. Hence high risk to reward.

[TOGSolid]

Pretty much every Founder has been on the receiving end of a big LLAS boat and I think we'd all agree that it's not bad at all.

[xXBagheeraXx]

TOGSolid, on 08 July 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

Pretty much every Founder has been on the receiving end of a big LLAS boat and I think we'd all agree that it's not bad at all.

Nope, and I'd like my Supernova prime to be un-nerfed before it gets here.

Kthxbai. That mech has always been my bread and butter mech. No missiles,(at least on the primary) no ballistics, just me some long range energy weps, a ton of heatsinks, and some targets.....guud stuff. (and its not an omnimech, so full customization...whee!!!!)

[WarZ]

MischiefSC, on 08 July 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

Doesn't nerf ppcs or gauss, just a specific problem.

Add Gauss to PPCs for ghost heat. Gauss sniper uneffected. Lone ppc builds uneffected.

No rework of convergence required.

No need to nerf chassis.

[redacted] Ghost Heat.... but it works.

The real answer to weapons alpha control lies in "power consumption". They need a mechanic for the amount of power a weapon uses.

Example:
- Engine generates 100 power/second.
- Gauss uses 50 power to fire. PPC uses 40 power to fire.
- End result is you cannot fire more than a gauss and one ppc, or 2 ppc's at the same time.

The mechanic was in the lore / books. WE SEE IT IN THE GAME NOW !!! When you fire a gauss your cockpit lights dim, BECAUSE the power draw is soo high.

Now just add the mechanic and you can PRECISELY control how many of what kinds of weapons and in what combination can be fired. It can also be done without bjorking up heat the way we have it now.

[Yokaiko]

TOGSolid, on 08 July 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

Pretty much every Founder has been on the receiving end of a big LLAS mlas boat and I think we'd all agree that it's not bad at all.

Remember the Hunchbacks....and the Awesomes before they nerfed the piss out of the engines?

I remember when they added a point of heat to mlas JUST because of hunchbacks, and that was BEFORE DHS.

[TOGSolid]

Yokaiko, on 08 July 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

Remember the Hunchbacks....and the Awesomes before they nerfed the piss out of the engines?

I remember when they added a point of heat to mlas JUST because of hunchbacks, and that was BEFORE DHS.

The Awesome ran MLAS/MPLAS depending on how cheeky the pilot was feeling while the Fastback was boating SLAS and maybe a few MLAS just to shake things up. None of that has anything to do with the current discussion about LLAS builds.

Nice try though.

Edited by TOGSolid, 08 July 2014 - 10:01 PM.

[MischiefSC]

CERLLs, if I ran 4 without ghost heat would be stupidly dangerous. Hitscan at 800m is pretty hardcore. At 1100m they're doing damage like an IS LL... but beyond unextended sensor range.

Even just regular IS LLs are pretty hardcore without ghost heat. Though I'd say ghost heat needs to hit LLs at laser 4, not laser 3. It's that ~30pt mark that things start to get dicey.

Which is why... put Gauss (possibly ACs?) in with PPCs for ghost heat. 2 PPC, every Gauss fired along with them cranks heat like a 3rd (or more) PPC. 2CERPPCs and 2 Gauss would be like firing 4 CERPPCs - which is to say, bathing in nuclear fire. 2 Gauss? No issues. 2 PPCs? No issue. 2 PPCs + 1 Gauss? Like 3 PPCs. 2 Gauss + 1 PPC? Like 3 PPCs.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 08 July 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

CERLLs, if I ran 4 without ghost heat would be stupidly dangerous. Hitscan at 800m is pretty hardcore. At 1100m they're doing damage like an IS LL... but beyond unextended sensor range.

Even just regular IS LLs are pretty hardcore without ghost heat. Though I'd say ghost heat needs to hit LLs at laser 4, not laser 3. It's that ~30pt mark that things start to get dicey.

Which is why... put Gauss (possibly ACs?) in with PPCs for ghost heat. 2 PPC, every Gauss fired along with them cranks heat like a 3rd (or more) PPC. 2CERPPCs and 2 Gauss would be like firing 4 CERPPCs - which is to say, bathing in nuclear fire. 2 Gauss? No issues. 2 PPCs? No issue. 2 PPCs + 1 Gauss? Like 3 PPCs. 2 Gauss + 1 PPC? Like 3 PPCs.

I'd rather just see Gauss and PPCs share something based on the mechanic where you can only charge the 2 Gauss at a time, something that simply puts a full second delay in between Gauss and PPC, or vice versa, since both are immense power eaters.

But I would be willing to toy with the GH before just willfully eliminating FLD entirely.

[MischiefSC]

So I made what I call my Dire-Shee tonight.

Banshee 3E. 375XL, 6 or 7 DHS, 3PPCs, 3 or 4 tons of ammo for the Gauss.

It's just *stupid* how destructive it is. Stupid. While a side torso will kill it unlike the Dire Wolf, the massive increase in mobility (speed 70, arms as shields, great twist) is a way better payoff.

5pts less than the Dire Wolf but the tradeoff is great. I haven't had a match score under 100.

[Khobai]

the problem with ghost heat is that its easily circumvented. x2 PPC and x2 AC5 being the perfect example.

unless PGI links all the weapons together, ghost heat can never really work.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MischiefSC, on 09 July 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

So I made what I call my Dire-Shee tonight.

Banshee 3E. 375XL, 6 or 7 DHS, 3PPCs, 3 or 4 tons of ammo for the Gauss.

It's just *stupid* how destructive it is. Stupid. While a side torso will kill it unlike the Dire Wolf, the massive increase in mobility (speed 70, arms as shields, great twist) is a way better payoff.

5pts less than the Dire Wolf but the tradeoff is great. I haven't had a match score under 100.

And yet I would still MUCH rather run into this than a well played jump sniper with 2 AC 5's and 2 PPC's.

The Banshee still needs to expose itself to do the damage. And it's not just "drop back down" to get out of harms way.

The Risk/Reward isn't as out of whack.

Not to mention that thing is still going to overheat, and has 0 ability to brawl.

[Mcgral18]

MischiefSC, on 09 July 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

So I made what I call my Dire-Shee tonight.

Banshee 3E. 375XL, 6 or 7 DHS, 3PPCs, 3 or 4 tons of ammo for the Gauss.

It's just *stupid* how destructive it is. Stupid. While a side torso will kill it unlike the Dire Wolf, the massive increase in mobility (speed 70, arms as shields, great twist) is a way better payoff.

5pts less than the Dire Wolf but the tradeoff is great. I haven't had a match score under 100.

I prefer the 732 for this build, slightly hotter, slower but with max JJs.

[XX Sulla XX]

As long as the longer range front loaded weapons are hotter and fire slower I think its a win win for the community. Just have to balance it enough so they are still viable.