510 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Heffay, on 08 July 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

The 3 heat is for 1 jump jet, as he said. Running a 5 jump jet setup only creates 10 heat, so on top of having twice the JJ power, you get a lot more heat efficiency out of it per jump jet. This encourages people to use more than 1 JJ, as coupled with the decrease in the performance, 1JJ just won't do what you want. Unless you only want to use it to rapidly change direction, which is perfectly legitimate way of using it.

TT provides the basis (JJ creates heat), and the specific implementation when you convert from 10 second turns to a FPS sim is really up to PGI. If you want TT rules, there is always MW:Tactics.

I just tested it on megamek. 1 heat per jumpjet with a minimum of 3. Also if you read what I said... One JJ would be spent giving you mostly lift with very little room to land; just 12 meters maximum if you held it or if you tried to land safely you'd get 6 meters height.
With 2 you'd get 24 max (and splat down) or 12 meters with safe landing.

Also in each case you'd get 30 meters forward, so poptarting would literally be impossible since it would propel you forward.

Forward at a significantly faster rate than here.

Honestly if PGI stuck to the TT rules for the heat system in general, we'd rarely if ever hear complaints about pinpoint aim because 2 ER Large Lasers would cause you to potentially shutdown if fired at the same time without an override and detonate ammunition, but over 10 seconds you can easily fire 6 of them with enough double heatsinks. 2 ER PPCs could not be fired at the same time, though 2 regulars could be without trouble. Yet you can still churn out 4 ER PPCs in 10 seconds with 20 DHS and great risk to yourself.

All PPCs would also have a charge up mechanic, where regulars could have the charge up aspect greatly reduced (as it takes longer to charge up) by switching off the field inhibitor, removing the 90 meter minimum range penalty. Said min range penalty is not that the shot stops doing damage at 90 meters but is almost impossible to hit a fast moving target at close range due to the charge up mechanic in TT, reflected by said minimum range.

<.< All in all the game would be considerably more balanced with a favoritism to brawling... as all heat factors favored close range combat and heavily taxed long range.

Edited by Koniving, 12 July 2014 - 04:24 PM.

[Jomacdo]

Heffay, on 08 July 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

The 3 heat is for 1 jump jet, as he said. Running a 5 jump jet setup only creates 10 heat, so on top of having twice the JJ power, you get a lot more heat efficiency out of it per jump jet. This encourages people to use more than 1 JJ

Only twice the power for 3.3 times the heat and FIVE times the tonnage. Please rethink what you just said.

[Threat Doc]

Heffay, on 08 July 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

...

Heffay, my friend, stop. They're not going to understand, they have no desire to understand what it is PGI is trying to do towards balance, and you are wasting your words on them. Come on, let's go get a beer, we have better things to do, right?

[Modo44]

Sounds like good changes overall, especially cutting on the free lift that just happens to desync hit registration. I would hope the system is tunable because the 1 JJ values seem too good (to be discovered, obviously).

Also, I think you forgot JJ tonnage scaling. The Victor will remain ridiculous if it retains the 1 ton JJ on an assault advantage. F TT rules on that, seriously. 0.5 through 2.0 in a linear progression would fix some build issues that none of the above addresses.

Edited by Modo44, 08 July 2014 - 12:46 PM.

[Heffay]

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

I just tested it on megamek. 1 heat per jumpjet with a minimum of 3. Also if you read what I said... One JJ would be spent giving you mostly up with very little room to land; just 12 meters maximum if you held it or if you tried to land safely you'd get 6 meters height.
With 2 you'd get 24 max (and splat down) or 12 meters with safe landing.

Also in each case you'd get 30 meters forward, so poptarting would literally be impossible since it would propel you forward.

Forward at a significantly faster rate than here.

I don't think in an FPS sim that having that much control of an airborne mech would make for very compelling (or realistic) gameplay. I can understand the reason for using it in TT due to the 10 second turn limitation, but different game requires different solution.

Jomacdo, on 08 July 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

Only twice the power for 3.3 times the heat and FIVE times the tonnage. Please rethink what you just said.

Yah? And what is that 1 heat sink going to get you, other that just enough time to turn 90 degrees? Seems like a legitimate choice either way, depending on what you want to do.

[Void Angel]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 08 July 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

One common misconception that I've seen concerning these changes is that this was supposed to "fix" the "pop-tart meta". That is not the case. Just to be clear, we are not trying to remove pop-tarting from MWO. It is a valid, tactical means of play. The way we want to address it is from a cost per performance view, not eliminate it. The changes in this update do affect the pop-tart meta builds but only by increasing costs in tonnage, space and having to adapt to less vertical thrust.

When most of us talk about fixing the meta, this is what we're talking about. =) The problem isn't that people can use jump jets to defeat terrain and focus fire while presenting only scattered targets themselves - it's that they can do so with too much impunity. From my perspective, this exacerbates the long-range snipe-n-hide mentality I see in so many of my games that turns the match into a long-range sniperfest: both teams exchanging desultory gunfire from behind their favorite hiding rock while getting liquored up for the endgame - when the brawlers actually get to play the game.

[Heffay]

Kay Wolf, on 08 July 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

Heffay, my friend, stop. They're not going to understand, they have no desire to understand what it is PGI is trying to do towards balance, and you are wasting your words on them. Come on, let's go get a beer, we have better things to do, right?

I think it's more that they know it's going to be fine, but they want to complain anyway because that is how they roll. Stay on message, denigrate everything regardless of any factual info or logical thought, and fling that poo baby! Make it stick to everything!

[wanderer]

shad0w4life, on 08 July 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

How about you wait until it's in before saying that's the case, it definitely punishes the dual PPC+Guass TW build with heat reduction speed. Lower DPS is good overall, and if they risk overheating more then you have a 43 armor leg to blow off easier.

Again, this is akin to nerfing the Highlander chassis without addressing the actual problem in the first place.

The problem is being able to cut your jets in midair and drill someone with perfect accuracy. Paul's "solution" just sticks a finger where the sun doesn't shine for 'Mechs that actually, y'know, jump vs. popping up and sniping.

That we've got:

Quote

Just to be clear, we are not trying to remove pop-tarting from MWO. It is a valid, tactical means of play.

When it's the be-all-end-all of the meta , thereby reducing tactics to monomaniacal pogo-sniping means OF COURSE it's a valid, tactical means of play. At the top, it's the ONLY frickin means of play.

This does nothing significant to change that. As such, it's as much a failure as turning the Victor into a clumsy bouncy-blaster towards doing anything beneficial to the game.

Air mobility should be simple and linked to engine capacity. Full set of jets? You're as agile in the air as you are at 66% of your ground mobility (later, improved jump jets will bring this up to 100% of engine capacity, for the historically minded). One jet? You're a whale that wallows into the air and turns like a dyspeptic manatee- and the more jets it'd have taken to get to max, the clumsier you are relative to it. Go back to the TT limits on maximum jets as a function of engine capacity as well. It's a KISS application, and MWO desperately needs more KISS and less complexity for no other reason than making the game seem more complex. Heck, you can even put heat in the same way "cruise" and "flank" speed on your MWO throttle generates heat.

Shooting while airborne should be shaky. Period. Jets on or off, your shooting should be weeble-wobbly sprays rather than "jets go off, sniper mode goes on". You want stable? Feet on the ground, buster.

[Heffay]

wanderer, on 08 July 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

The problem is being able to cut your jets in midair and drill someone with perfect accuracy.

And again, you're looking for a solution that these changes aren't intended to address. Or at least not directly. It'll make it more challenging to do that certainly, but if you want a solution to pinpoint damage, take it to a thread that discusses solutions for pinpoint damage.

[Jman5]

Looking forward to seeing this in action. Seems like it will have an overall positive impact on balancing jump jet mechs and non-jumpjet mechs (yes we do exist).

[DarthPeanut]

Glad to see it posted (as it has been before) that you are not looking to kill off jump sniping (poptarting). It needed to be reiterated. It is a good viable tactic for those who want to use it.

Changes look pretty reasonable and curious to see how they are in actual game play next patch!

Edited by DarthPeanut, 08 July 2014 - 01:00 PM.

[KGB GRU]

"One common misconception that I've seen concerning these changes is that this was supposed to "fix" the "pop-tart meta". That is not the case. Just to be clear, we are not trying to remove pop-tarting from MWO. It is a valid, tactical means of play. The way we want to address it is from a cost per performance view, not eliminate it. The changes in this update do affect the pop-tart meta builds but only by increasing costs in tonnage, space and having to adapt to less vertical thrust."

Yes the bull*** strategy thats not fun for the majority of players looking for a new Mech Warrior experience is not being "Fixed". Just because you deem it valid doesnt mean its a good fit for the game. Front load pinpoint damage continues to dominate this game and is the #1 issue with MWO month after month. Jump jets as you already said were a means of maneuvering, not for hill hugging up and down front load damage pew pew. Last time I checked flying mechs were not an issue, the overwhelming poptart FLD meta was.

After the fall damage patch I have little faith in your ability to assess and address gameplay issues. Also for shiggles, try watching your own tournament games some time, what a yawn fest. Never again.

Edited by KGB GRU, 08 July 2014 - 01:00 PM.

[Jomacdo]

Heffay, on 08 July 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

Yah? And what is that 1 heat sink going to get you, other that just enough time to turn 90 degrees? Seems like a legitimate choice either way, depending on what you want to do.

Over half the thrust of 5 for a third of the heat and a fifth of the tonnage?

[AgroAlba]

Glad to see these changes implemented. Hopefully this'll force folks to start taking more jumpjets.

[Heffay]

Jomacdo, on 08 July 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Over half the thrust of 5 for a third of the heat and a fifth of the tonnage?

Keep in mind that the graph is a generic representation, and the actual values are affected by chassis weight and engine size. If you think 1 jump jet is going to allow you to effectively pop tart, then ... good luck with that.

[wanderer]

Heffay, on 08 July 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

And again, you're looking for a solution that these changes aren't intended to address. Or at least not directly. It'll make it more challenging to do that certainly, but if you want a solution to pinpoint damage, take it to a thread that discusses solutions for pinpoint damage.

And I think that Paul's statement fails to address needed changes in the first place regarding jump jets. Let's take a look at that,

Quote

Jump Jets are for maneuvering purposes only and not meant to make a 'Mech fly around the environment.

Jump jets, in Battletech are used generally to negate terrain penalties while maneuvering through terrain, with the tradeoff of seriously decreased accuracy. Call me strange, but we haven't really had problems with flying giant robots in MWO. Hawken or Armored Core, this ain't.

Quote

This single Jump Jet causes a maxed Single Heat Sink 'Mech to hit around 3% heat. Adding 4 more Jump Jets will take this same 'Mech to around 10% heat after a full burn.

We've got roughly TT heat levels for one JJ firing...buuuuut we then increase those penalties further. This encourages short "chops" of thrust vs. long burns. That is, it makes actually maneuvering on one's jets less pleasant than quick bounces.

Quote

Jump Jet's are now doing much less compounded lift than before. The initial boost is also providing less vertical lift than before. This means that across the board, all 'Mechs will be not be jumping as high as they were before.

In Battletech, jump jets act as an alternate form of powered movement. This is directly linked to the 'Mechs engine capacity- that is, you can't strap six jets on a 50-ton 'Mech just because- it's got to have at least a 300-rated engine to pull it off. Each jet, effectively acts as an "engine rating" equal to the tonnage of the 'Mech for the purposes of getting it moving. This just simply says "STRAP LOTS OF JUMP JETS ON TO GO HIGHER" without taking into account that in TT, you had to have an engine that could actually fuel that mobility.

Quote

that this was supposed to "fix" the "pop-tart meta".

Paul brought it up, I'm saying that the fixes to jets have to address this, or they really don't have much meaning. Anything else simply messes with things that either never should have been messed with, or worse breaks something else for no apparent reason other than to make MWO more head-scratchingly "Why?" than before.

[Void Angel]

A point of order: The Tabletop rulebook is not and cannot be an authoritative reference for what should be done in this game.

[Heffay]

wanderer, on 08 July 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

This just simply says "STRAP LOTS OF JUMP JETS ON TO GO HIGHER" without taking into account that in TT, you had to have an engine that could actually fuel that mobility.

Not to ignore the rest of your points, but since they are irrelevant, I'll just deal with this part which is just plain wrong. Jump jet effectiveness will be tied to chassis weight and engine size, so it's not a simple matter of strapping on more jump jets. You have an engine that actually fuels that mobility. Just like TT.

[MechB Kotare]

I like how you just do everything in order to nerf jumpsniping, and promote poptarting... Way to go. You wanna be close to BT, but you are going further away.

[Sandpit]

good
should never have been a discussion to remove it in the first place. It's a valid and legal tactic. It breaks no rules, nor even the spirit of the game.