510 replies to this topic

[Jody Von Jedi]

I don't see the answer to this in the OP.

When does this change go into effect? July 15th patch?

[gunghoblazes]

shad0w4life, on 08 July 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

45
-10(spread damage)
=35 Fld


Math,it is wonderful.
How about you wait until it's in before saying that's the case, it definitely punishes the dual PPC+Guass TW build with heat reduction speed. Lower DPS is good overall, and if they risk overheating more then you have a 43 armor leg to blow off easier.

[dangerzone]

Jomacdo, on 08 July 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

So it looks like it takes another 6 jump jets to get twice the effect of one.

Is PGI really bad at implementing what they say they will or are they just really bad at graphs?

O_O I think they're just bad at graphs. Either that or it's howing the current rate of thrust with one jj and how it's the same vertical thrust with like 5.

They really should label things better :/

[Dymlos2003]

XX Sulla XX, on 08 July 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

We did not think you wanted to remove it but make it less OP so it did not dominate high ELO game play so much.

No a lot of people think this a nerf towards poptarts when in fact it's just changing how jumpjets work so that mechs aren't flying around everywhere. They are actually finishing features of the game.

[XX Sulla XX]

Looking at this it seems like it will just encourage more people to only use one jump jet.

[Vassago Rain]

So as we've established, Paul doesn't have a problem with poptarts. Thus, he has decided that everybody now gets weaker jets that generate heat.

Uhh, what? What's up with the graph? I need 8 jets to double the effect of one?

I don't know anymore, man.

[Sky Hawk]

Bit strange, a Graphic from Paul (who, works all day long with numbers), without usefull numbers..

PS. What has here 12 JJ?

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

No a lot of people think this a nerf towards poptarts when in fact it's just changing how jumpjets work so that mechs aren't flying around everywhere. They are actually finishing features of the game.

No its both. "The way we want to address it is from a cost per performance view, not eliminate it."

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 08 July 2014 - 12:22 PM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Sky Hawk, on 08 July 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Bit strange, a Graphic from Paul (who, works all day long with numbers), without usefull numbers..

PS. What has here 12 JJ?

3-second Jenners and 6-MG Spiders.

[Heffay]

XX Sulla XX, on 08 July 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

Looking at this it seems like it will just encourage more people to only use one jump jet.

With just one JJ, you probably won't be able to get any significant vertical movement. Remember they are also nerfing the amount of vertical you get as well. One jump jet may just get you a few meters off the ground. It'll be interesting to see how much of an impact this has.

Sky Hawk, on 08 July 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Bit strange, a Graphic from Paul (who, works all day long with numbers), without usefull numbers.. PS. What has here 12 JJ?

One of the Spiders has 12 JJs.

[dangerzone]

Vassago Rain, on 08 July 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

So as we've established, Paul doesn't have a problem with poptarts. Thus, he has decided that everybody now gets weaker jets that generate heat.

Uhh, what? What's up with the graph? I need 8 jets to double the effect of one?

I don't know anymore, man.

Either they suck at making graphs or that graph is showing the current jumpjet system where one jj is op.

I think we need to change the chant from, "fix your **** PGI", to: "fix your graphs, PGI!" XD

[Mister Blastman]

I'm perplexed at all this. So we're making jump jets weaker--which is okay... but they've already been weakened quite a bit...

Wouldn't it be simpler to do something like... say... remove terrain movement penalties for 'mechs that can't use jump jets, increase firing cycle time for "sniper" weapons (say put PPCs & Gauss at 6 seconds) and potentially adding a little splash to the PPC?

Oh, and buff SRMs to closed-beta levels.

That wouldn't be bad, right? That'd also be... balancing the game in a rock-paper-scissors manner. Ya know, like things should be balanced? Pros and Cons. Not just... Cons.



(Because PGI REFUSES to do anything about weapon convergence--and no, I don't want random crap, either)

Edited by Mister Blastman, 08 July 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

With just one JJ, you probably won't be able to get any significant vertical movement. Remember they are also nerfing the amount of vertical you get as well. One jump jet may just get you a few meters off the ground. It'll be interesting to see how much of an impact this has.

But they can do jump turns and hill humping. Might be the direction things are going. Or might be enough to get high weopons just over cover.

[Heffay]

XX Sulla XX, on 08 July 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

But they can do jump turns and hill humping. Might be the direction things are going. Or might be enough to get high weopons just over cover.

Like he said, he isn't trying to eliminate pop tarting; he's trying to make it less effective so that it isn't the be-all end-all of mech building. There is a point where it becomes difficult enough to use that it becomes a true skill play, and that is where these changes are designed to take the game. Reduce the effectiveness enough where it's still useful occasionally, but not the only way to play.

[Threat Doc]

Before I go reading, just let me say first, thank you PGI, especially you, Paul. I am looking forward, very much, to seeing how this plays out. However, I have one question for you: you have addressed vertical, now what about horizontal?

Also, about the pop-tarting, maybe I haven't been paying all that much attention, but I've NEVER felt that pop-tarting is bad in MWO, not remotely like it was in MW4. In MW4, people could jet up high, find, lock, and fire on their target, before disappearing back down behind cover. In MWO they've always had penalties, the way Jump Jets worked has always been a limiting factor, vertically, and so I think this was something that was never really that bad to begin with. Now, I'm a fan of Jump Jets, so I might be put out a little bit, but I will make sure to give them a fair shake and, if I feel something's wrong, expect that I will bring it to your attention.

[Koniving]

Paul Inouye said:

Table Top (TT) rules add 3 heat instantaneously upon using any number of Jump Jets.

Not a good concept of the rules there mate. Or at least a partially incorrect concept.
Jumpjets give you 1 heat per jumpjet (with a MINIMUM of 3 heat) and 30 meters of horizontal movement, 2 levels (6 meters per height "level") per jumpjet.

This means you get 30 meters of movement, 12 meters of height per jumpjet in tabletop. This is also over the span of 10 seconds.

Second, since you cannot walk or run in the same turn it is natural to believe that it consumes the entire 10 seconds to get you (with 7 jumpjets) 210 meters of horizontal movement with 84/2 (42) meters (as there is descent as well if you plan on landing on a level surface, if you just thrust it's 84 meters) of total potential height for 7 heat.
(Meaning it's a process that is of equal speed to what an engine would put out for that mech if the engine had the power to put out 7 hexes, so if you can run at 7 hexes then with 7 jumpjets whether moving or stationary you can match that speed through the air while jump-jetting plus or minus approximately 15 meters (hexes are 30 meters to encompass acceleration/deceleration and other physics factors). Interestingly enough even if you can only run at 4 hexes (120 meters), if you have 7 jumpjets you could still move 7 hexes (210 meters).)

Firing during this time gets a +3 modifier, meaning it's harder to hit while jumping than running (which is +2, which is harder to hit while walking which is +1).

The minimum of 3 heat regardless of space moved is to represent the consumption of jumpjet power required to launch the mech into said jump (where in MWO we simply tap it and the mech launches, in Battletech, it requires a bit of power and energy to launch the mech in -- depending on which author -- requires either a build up of thrust to accelerate into the launch while actively thrusting and consuming fuel, or in another author's account it precharges and bursts the mech into the air with only a little thrust left to help with maneuvering and landing). The vertical launch is supposed to be reasonably faster for multiple JJs, with plenty of fuel left over for what's required. The vertical launch of a single JJ however is supposed to eat much of the power available.

Edits: Missing words made a sentence rather confusing.

Edited by Koniving, 08 July 2014 - 06:12 PM.

[A Man In A Can]

Edited by Mechwarrior Mousse, 08 July 2014 - 12:36 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Not a good concept of the rules there mate. Or at least a partially incorrect concept.
Jumpjets give you 1 heat per jumpjet (with a MINIMUM of 3 heat) and 30 meters of horizontal movement, 2 levels (6 meters per height "level") per jumpjet.

This means you get 30 meters of movement, 12 meters of height per jumpjet in tabletop.

This is also over the span of 10 seconds, second you cannot while or run in the same turn it is natural to believe that it consumes the entire 10 seconds to get you (with 7 jumpjets) 210 meters of horizontal movement with 84/2 (42) meters (as there is descent as well if you plan on landing on a level surface) of total potential height for 7 heat.

Firing during this time gets a +3 modifier, meaning it's harder to hit while jumping than running (which is +2, which is harder to hit while walking which is +1).

The minimum of 3 heat regardless of space moved is to represent the consumption of jumpjet power required to launch the mech into said jump. The vertical launch is supposed to be reasonably faster for multiple JJs, with plenty of fuel left over for what's required. The vertical launch of a single JJ however is supposed to eat much of the power available.

I don't think they've played battletech, brah.

[Heffay]

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Not a good concept of the rules there mate. Or at least a partially incorrect concept.
Jumpjets give you 1 heat per jumpjet (with a MINIMUM of 3 heat) and 30 meters of horizontal movement, 2 levels (6 meters per height "level") per jumpjet.

The 3 heat is for 1 jump jet, as he said. Running a 5 jump jet setup only creates 10 heat, so on top of having twice the JJ power, you get a lot more heat efficiency out of it per jump jet. This encourages people to use more than 1 JJ, as coupled with the decrease in the performance, 1JJ just won't do what you want. Unless you only want to use it to rapidly change direction, which is perfectly legitimate way of using it.

TT provides the basis (JJ creates heat), and the specific implementation when you convert from 10 second turns to a FPS sim is really up to PGI. If you want TT rules, there is always MW:Tactics.

Edited by Heffay, 08 July 2014 - 12:36 PM.

[Appogee]

8 Jets to double the height of 1...? Does common sense ever get considered in these decisions?