510 replies to this topic

[HUBA]

Pezzer, on 08 July 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

Roger that, instead of nerfing something that needs it you are nerfing jumpjets.

I would be cool with this if the numbers didn't say "jump jets will be less useful AND generate a lot of heat". In reality, it would have been better to see Jumpjets building heat, having less thrust in the first .3 seconds of the burn, but then providing more overall forward thrust with less emphasis on the vertical. This would have made JJs a great way to jump over small pieces of terrain and away from enemies while disposing of the pop-tart meta that much more. Also, the first .3 second bit is to fix spamming the spacebar to get over mountains.

TL;DR don't nerf JJs, make them less pop-tarty and designed to move the Mech up and away from danger.

This is only about JJ and how the (should) work.

• As already mentioned hill climbing with th space spamming have to go. I would suggest a 3 Second cool of after last use (even in air)
  
• The initial boost should be less effective but further boost need an increase - 50% increasing to 100% boost in the first second. (continues boost will be more effective then more little boosts)
  
• More JJ need to be more effective optimal would be 2JJ are twice as effective then 1JJ. Here you can use the number of JJ for the total jump time. As an idea 1 + 1 second for every tonne JJ. A Spider with 12JJ and an assault with 3JJ would have 7 seconds boost time.
  
• More JJ less heat, because the heat will generate at different spots and can be distributed easier. Also should be considered, that the boost time is longer so that even if 2JJ have less heat/s it make in total more over the complete boost time.
  
• The boost it self should depend on the no. of JJ. More JJ gives a better boost so that light mechs can have also a fast vertical speed. It have to be balanced with the longer boost time. The spider with 12JJ have much more agility then the heavy brother with 3JJ
  
• Horizontal speed should be changeable. Simply by pressing W or S you can in- or decrease the horizontal speed even a jump strait up and then move forward to land on a building should be possible.
  
• Damage on landing also should be increased. Everyone who uses JJ have to learn to keep some fuel for the landing otherwise bad things can happen.

[Jomacdo]

Heffay, on 08 July 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

Keep in mind that the graph is a generic representation, and the actual values are affected by chassis weight and engine size. If you think 1 jump jet is going to allow you to effectively pop tart, then ... good luck with that.

So you're saying PGI has finnaly killed poptarting then? Because if 1JJ isn't good enough and you really REALLY need that extra 80% height to poptart you'll be crippled by the 330% increase in heat and the 500% increase of alloted tonnage.

You've made me see the light. PGI has finally slain the metabeast.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Kay Wolf, on 08 July 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Before I go reading, just let me say first, thank you PGI, especially you, Paul. I am looking forward, very much, to seeing how this plays out. However, I have one question for you: you have addressed vertical, now what about horizontal?

Yeah, I too would like to read about how horizontal thrust will work.

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Spoiler

Jumpjets give you 1 heat per jumpjet (with a MINIMUM of 3 heat) and 30 meters of horizontal movement, 2 levels (6 meters per height "level") per jumpjet.

This means you get 30 meters of movement, 12 meters of height per jumpjet in tabletop.

This is also over the span of 10 seconds, second you cannot while or run in the same turn it is natural to believe that it consumes the entire 10 seconds to get you (with 7 jumpjets) 210 meters of horizontal movement with 84/2 (42) meters (as there is descent as well if you plan on landing on a level surface) of total potential height for 7 heat.

Firing during this time gets a +3 modifier, meaning it's harder to hit while jumping than running (which is +2, which is harder to hit while walking which is +1).

The minimum of 3 heat regardless of space moved is to represent the consumption of jumpjet power required to launch the mech into said jump (where in MWO we simply tap it and the mech launches, in Battletech, it requires a bit of power and energy to launch the mech in -- depending on which author -- requires either a build up of thrust to accelerate into the launch while actively thrusting and consuming fuel, or in another author's account it precharges and bursts the mech into the air with only a little thrust left to help with maneuvering and landing). The vertical launch is supposed to be reasonably faster for multiple JJs, with plenty of fuel left over for what's required. The vertical launch of a single JJ however is supposed to eat much of the power available.

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

Spoiler

I just tested it on megamek. 1 heat per jumpjet with a minimum of 3. Also if you read what I said... One JJ would be spent giving you mostly lift with very little room to land; just 12 meters maximum if you held it or if you tried to land safely you'd get 6 meters height.
With 2 you'd get 24 max (and splat down) or 12 meters with safe landing.

Also in each case you'd get 30 meters forward, so poptarting would literally be impossible since it would propel you forward.

Forward at a significantly faster rate than here.

Honestly if PGI stuck to the TT rules for the heat system in general, we'd rarely if ever hear complaints about pinpoint aim because 2 ER Large Lasers would cause you to potentially shutdown if fired at the same time without an override and detonate ammunition, but over 10 seconds you can easily fire 3. 2 ER PPCs could not be fired at the same time, though 2 regulars could be without trouble. Yet you can still churn out 4 ER PPCs in 10 seconds with 20 DHS and great risk to yourself.

All PPCs would also have a charge up mechanic, where regulars could have the charge up aspect greatly reduced (as it takes longer to charge up) by switching off the field inhibitor, removing the 90 meter minimum range penalty. Said min range penalty is not that the shot stops doing damage at 90 meters but is almost impossible to hit a fast moving target at close range due to the charge up mechanic in TT, reflected by said minimum range.

<.< All in all the game would be considerably more balanced with a favoritism to brawling... as all heat factors favored close range combat and heavily taxed long range.

I'd prefer Jump Jets to work more like this, being able to provide this sort of horizontal thrust for mechs.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 08 July 2014 - 01:27 PM.

[Heffay]

Jomacdo, on 08 July 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

So you're saying PGI has finnaly killed poptarting then? Because if 1JJ isn't good enough and you really REALLY need that extra 80% height to poptart you'll be crippled by the 330% increase in heat and the 500% increase of alloted tonnage.

You've made me see the light. PGI has finally slain the metabeast.

No, they made it so you have to sacrifice tonnage to be able to do it, meaning you do less damage and requires more skill to pull it off.

Exactly the way it should be. Now all they need are some convergence fixes, and you'll still be able to poptart, but pinpoint damage will be even less. TTL will go up, and the game will be that much better.

[Void Angel]

Also, even if you do insist on slavish adherence to the rulebook for a different game, jump sniping is part of the tabletop ruleset - so there exists no basis to complain about it on those grounds.

Also, "fix" does not mean "eliminate." PGI is attempting to actually fix part of the Poptart Problem with these changes - by approaching the tactic from a standpoint of reward/investment, as they should. If the "real issue" is pinpoint damage/convergence/bronies/etc, then your only cause to criticise these changes must lie in whether or not the changes will cause jump jets to yield too little reward for the investment in heat/tonnage - exactly the standpoint from which PGI is analyzing the system.

In no case is devolving to Battletech hipsterdom a valid objection.

Edited by Void Angel, 08 July 2014 - 01:29 PM.

[Sandpit]

Heffay, on 08 July 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

Not to ignore the rest of your points, but since they are irrelevant, I'll just deal with this part which is just plain wrong. Jump jet effectiveness will be tied to chassis weight and engine size, so it's not a simple matter of strapping on more jump jets. You have an engine that actually fuels that mobility. Just like TT.

this causes me physical pain
Heffay is right in this regard

TT JJs were limited by engine size. You walking speed determined the max hexes you could move using JJs. You could never have a jumping distance greater than your walking distance. JJs are limited in the same manner here.

[Praehotec8]

I am a bit concerned because, right now I always carry all or near-max JJs on my jump-capable mechs, and they don't feel all that agile. The lift is barely adequate on mechs carrying only two (in my opinion) right now, and soon it will be worse? I simply don't see what benefit this will have for the game. What will it improve, other than the perception (and not one shared by all), that mechs are too agile?

How will this affect mechs like the Jester, that are great striker mechs which use those JJs to get in and out quickly? Carrying only two max jets seems like after the nerf it might just be worth the tonnage to take them off.

I would rather see JJs work to provide a fast, powerful thrust along a vector that can to some degree be chosen by the player. I watched a video one time of MW:LL (never played it), but the JJs in that game looked fun to use.

We will have to see how this turns out, but it seems like it takes some of the fun out of having JJs on mechs without adding anything significant to the game.

[Sandpit]

Praehotec8, on 08 July 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

I am a bit concerned because, right now I always carry all or near-max JJs on my jump-capable mechs, and they don't feel all that agile. The lift is barely adequate on mechs carrying only two (in my opinion) right now, and soon it will be worse? I simply don't see what benefit this will have for the game. What will it improve, other than the perception (and not one shared by all), that mechs are too agile?

How will this affect mechs like the Jester, that are great striker mechs which use those JJs to get in and out quickly? Carrying only two max jets seems like after the nerf it might just be worth the tonnage to take them off.

I would rather see JJs work to provide a fast, powerful thrust along a vector that can to some degree be chosen by the player. I watched a video one time of MW:LL (never played it), but the JJs in that game looked fun to use.

We will have to see how this turns out, but it seems like it takes some of the fun out of having JJs on mechs without adding anything significant to the game.

Personally I always liked MW2 and MPBT3025 JJ mechanics. You got actual thrust and lift but they generated a lot more heat.

[D04S02B04]

I think I can give better feedback, or people might give more relevant feedback if we actually understood what Paul has written.

Kindly rephrase your post as follows:

[color=orange]First: Jump Jet Heat.[/color]
- State how much Heat Per Second generated per Jump Jet fired. We're not interested in ball park estimates.

[color=orange]Second: Jump Jet Thrust[/color]
- Your graph was absolutely useless. What is the ACTUAL VALUE of the height?
- Give the formula that accounts for chassis and engine combination so we can calculate it ourselves.

[color=orange]Why This Change is Needed[/color]
- State the OBJECTIVE you want to achieve and WHAT results you are expecting because of this change.

[Heffay]

D04S02B04, on 08 July 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

I think I can give better feedback, or people might give more relevant feedback if we actually understood what Paul has written.

Kindly rephrase your post as follows:

[color=orange]First: Jump Jet Heat.[/color]
- State how much Heat Per Second generated per Jump Jet fired. We're not interested in ball park estimates.

[color=orange]Second: Jump Jet Thrust[/color]
- Your graph was absolutely useless. What is the ACTUAL VALUE of the height?
- Give the formula that accounts for chassis and engine combination so we can calculate it ourselves.

[color=orange]Why This Change is Needed[/color]
- State the OBJECTIVE you want to achieve and WHAT results you are expecting because of this change.

He made a follow-up post already on this. The graph is an approximation, as the actual values are affected by both chassis weight and engine size. The number of permutation on this are huge, so the graph is intended to give a ballpark impression.

And the formula will probably be available in the game files. And most likely given to the modders like Li Song and Smurfy, so they can put these actual values in their tools.

Edited by Heffay, 08 July 2014 - 01:40 PM.

[Grey Black]

I am not in favor of this, mostly because of the last line that this is not to "Fix the poptart meta."

The poptart meta is broken. There is no cost/benefit analysis invested here. What needs to be fixed is that we need to increase the number of jets necessary to poptart AND make it a legitimate tactical decision. What it is now is a no brainer: Poptart (due to broken hitreg/constantly being behind cover) or die. The linear scaling of the jumpjets is a good thing, I feel, but we need to slow the ascent for heavier mechs. Greater penalties need to be implemented for only using 1 or 2 jump jets: Most stock models use at least 3 for a reason! The average poptart mounts AT MOST 2. As such, why not simply penalize people for using 1 or 2 jump jets? Make 1 or 2 provide heat on the same levels that 3 do being the simplest approach with half the power.

Unless the numbers are tweaked, I don't see this reducing poptarting, which really does need to be reduced due to its pronounced dominance in both the competitive scene and high ELO matches. Increasing heat in a reverse-exponential scale would be one method I advocate, but insufficient. Good step forward, but keep moving forward.

[Jomacdo]

Heffay, on 08 July 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

No, they made it so you have to sacrifice tonnage to be able to do it, meaning you do less damage and requires more skill to pull it off.

Exactly the way it should be. Now all they need are some convergence fixes, and you'll still be able to poptart, but pinpoint damage will be even less. TTL will go up, and the game will be that much better.

Ah! So for the jumpjets intended use of better, more flexible mobility there is still no logical reason to bring more than one, despite the nerfs, because of the diminishing returns.

So this change brings poptarting more in line with the other playstyles(Something PGI says they weren't trying to do) while leaving the jump capable mechs that spend 1/50th(or less) of their tonnage in their position of clear superiority over their max jumpjet counterparts.

[Sandpit]

Grey Black, on 08 July 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

I am not in favor of this, mostly because of the last line that this is not to "Fix the poptart meta."

that's because being able to jump and shoot isn't "broken"

It's a valid tactic. There's nothing illegal about it nor is it an exploit. Therefore there's nothing to "fix" This would be no different than expecting PGI to "fix" something like.....

"There's too many LRMs, you should limit the number of tubes a team can bring"
or
"There's too many lasers, you should "fix" this by limiting the number a team can bring"
etc. etc. etc.

Just because something is "hard" doesn't mean it should be "fixed" or removed

[Void Angel]

Grey Black, on 08 July 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

I am not in favor of this, mostly because of the last line that this is not to "Fix the poptart meta."

Grey, you realize that establishing a cost/benefit balance is exactly what that last line paragraph about "fixing the poptart meta." is about? For example, increasing the number of jump jets needed to effectively attain sniping height is exactly what this change is about, along with reducing the heat efficiency of jump snipers:

Quote

Jump Jet's are now doing much less compounded lift than before. The initial boost is also providing less vertical lift than before. This means that across the board, all 'Mechs will be not be jumping as high as they were before. It is still possible to do snap turns using any number of Jump Jets, this change only affects vertical displacement.

There are already enough "discussions" in this threat that are producing more heat than light - please read more carefully, so you don't end up criticizing a change for not doing what it actually does.

Edited by Void Angel, 08 July 2014 - 01:49 PM.

[Heffay]

Jomacdo, on 08 July 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Ah! So for the jumpjets intended use of better, more flexible mobility there is still no logical reason to bring more than one, despite the nerfs, because of the diminishing returns.

So this change brings poptarting more in line with the other playstyles(Something PGI says they weren't trying to do) while leaving the jump capable mechs that spend 1/50th(or less) of their tonnage in their position of clear superiority over their max jumpjet counterparts.

That ton (or 1/2 ton, or 3 tons, depending on JJ type) you spend on a jump jet now affects your heat, reducing your DPS, and creates a risk of significant leg damage if used improperly.

They are becoming more of a skill based item. Sure they can provide situational advantages, but there may be other situations where all they do is reduce your DPS.

[Void Angel]

Heffay, can you link the follow-up post where they explain that the jump height will be affected by number of jets and engine rating? I didn't see it in the thread...

[Malorish]

Paul Inouye, on 08 July 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

One common misconception that I've seen concerning these changes is that this was supposed to "fix" the "pop-tart meta". That is not the case. Just to be clear, we are not trying to remove pop-tarting from MWO. It is a valid, tactical means of play. The way we want to address it is from a cost per performance view, not eliminate it. The changes in this update do affect the pop-tart meta builds but only by increasing costs in tonnage, space and having to adapt to less vertical thrust.

Sigh . . . . really? Don't you realize that Pop-tarting is the problem? As long as it remains a way to unload a high damage alpha in a way that minimizes return fire, it's going to continue to dominate the game.

Unless Pop-tarting goes, there is only 1 tactic . . . pop-tarting.

You can nerf PP FLD alphas, it's also going to nerf return fire, so as long as pop-tarting retains its overall damage to risk advantage, it's going to be the dominant meta.

I just don't understand what you're so scared about in removing poptarting from the game? Scared that we might have other viable forms of playing? Scared that many of the non-viable mechs will have a role? Scared that we might develop role warfare?

What do you guys want this game to be? Flying jumpy robots take potshots at each other for 15 minutes, or something closer to the Battletech lore that your audience was excited about in the first place?

Edited by Malorish, 08 July 2014 - 01:53 PM.

[Sandpit]

Malorish, on 08 July 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Sigh . . . . really? Don't you realize that Pop-tarting is the problem? As long as it remains a way to unload a high damage alpha in a way that minimizes return fire, it's going to continue to dominate the game.

Unless Pop-tarting goes, there is only 1 tactic . . . pop-tarting.

You can nerf PP FLD alphas, it's also going to nerf return fire, so as long as pop-tarting retains its overall damage to risk advantage, it's going to be the dominant meta.

I just don't understand what you're so scared about in removing poptarting from the game? Scared that we might have other viable forms of playing? Scared that many of the non-viable mechs will have a role? Scared that we might develop role warfare?

What do you guys want this game to be? Flying jumpy robots take potshots at each other for 15 minutes, or something closer to the Battletech lore that your audience was excited about in the first place?

again, just because you find something in teh game difficult to counter doesn't make it "op" or a validate a reason to remove or "fix" it.

[Lostdragon]

My feedback:

1. Scrap your current JJ system and any changes you are considering implementing.
2. Go play MW:LL, shamelessly copy how JJ worked in it
3. ??????
4. Profit

[Bilbo]

Void Angel, on 08 July 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Heffay, can you link the follow-up post where they explain that the jump height will be affected by number of jets and engine rating? I didn't see it in the thread...

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3542465